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Thread: Deus Ex Machina

  1. #16
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Deus Ex Machina

    To be honest I am more of the idea that the coordinate makes sense. The manga has made an important point about humanity since it started. The humans within the wall are not cattle metaphorically, they were cattle literally. It was the warrior's whims that kept them alive. RAB as 10 year olds had the actual power to destroy humanity as a whole based on what we saw. I mean, they are directly responsible for the deaths of 20000 people. The walls can at any random point be easily destroyed by the warriors beyond the walls and as we have seen there is not a thing humanity can do about it. Fighting or capturing annie was deemed impossible even by humanity's best and attempting to do so came at the cost of a huge number of humanity's most important military asset. Humanity never had a chance even with eren as a titan. Humanity never had a hand to play here. So for the manga to make sense at all the bare minimum was from the start that humanity would get a weapon so massively powerful that they would be able to fight against each and every warrior beyond the wall and with the appearance of the ape titan his ability to control titans as well. Honestly, I thought the manga was going to end with eren reaching the warrior's village and somehow transform into a titan so powerful he would just eat the lot of them in one go. I mean, a decisive victory was needed in one go because apparently any titan could have actually cracked the walls. Humanity was doomed from the start, a huge game changer was needed for to that to not be the case. That or inventing jet planes and nuclear weapons.

  2. #17
    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member
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    Re: Deus Ex Machina

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    To be honest I am more of the idea that the coordinate makes sense. The manga has made an important point about humanity since it started. The humans within the wall are not cattle metaphorically, they were cattle literally. It was the warrior's whims that kept them alive. RAB as 10 year olds had the actual power to destroy humanity as a whole based on what we saw. I mean, they are directly responsible for the deaths of 20000 people. The walls can at any random point be easily destroyed by the warriors beyond the walls and as we have seen there is not a thing humanity can do about it. Fighting or capturing annie was deemed impossible even by humanity's best and attempting to do so came at the cost of a huge number of humanity's most important military asset. Humanity never had a chance even with eren as a titan. Humanity never had a hand to play here. So for the manga to make sense at all the bare minimum was from the start that humanity would get a weapon so massively powerful that they would be able to fight against each and every warrior beyond the wall and with the appearance of the ape titan his ability to control titans as well. Honestly, I thought the manga was going to end with eren reaching the warrior's village and somehow transform into a titan so powerful he would just eat the lot of them in one go. I mean, a decisive victory was needed in one go because apparently any titan could have actually cracked the walls. Humanity was doomed from the start, a huge game changer was needed for to that to not be the case. That or inventing jet planes and nuclear weapons.
    Well said, I don't think the coordinate is the end all weapon I think its something that gives humanity a fighting chance. It would literally take waves and waves of 15m class titans to bring down a shifter and nothing short of Eren in Titan form would be capable of taking down Reiner since regular titans would have no way of harming him. We also have to assume RBA aren't the deadliest of the shifters so humanity would have that to content with. I think humanity's hope is that grisha got some more titan juice for Levi, Mikasa and Erwin.

  3. #18
    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member quoux's Avatar
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    Re: Deus Ex Machina

    I like this exactly how it is. It's a mess. And I love it.

    We don't even know who else could possess such an ability. I can't believe people are upset about Eren having it. Like wtf how is that gonna ruin it he's a horrible Titan shifter; he tried to kill mikasa the first time, he transformed to pick up a spoon, he lost against Annie once, he got massacred by her the second time except in the anime, he lost to Reiner and bertholdt...

    Oh what a great power he has... He's only really good for killing mindless titans. Big whoop, mikasa and Levi could probably kill more.

    Oh then he finds out he can control titans. Let's not forget he has no clue how he did it nor how it works, and considering it takes resolve in order to use it...

    Eren transformed into a Titan to pick up A SPOON. Yeah, that's the guy who has the coordinator ability. In interested to see where the heck this could go, how the beast Titan will react, and what is going to happen to the colossals in the wall.

    Stop complaining. This is a brilliant story, you can't have more plot than this even if you tried. It's so anti one dimensional, unlike most shonen, there's no pleasing the people who are against this.
    Last edited by kannazuki; November 04, 2013 at 04:23 PM.

  4. #19
    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member
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    Re: Deus Ex Machina

    Quote Originally Posted by quoux View Post
    I like this exactly how it is. It's a mess. And I love it.

    We don't even know who else could possess such an ability. I can't believe people are upset about Eren having it. Like wtf how is that gonna ruin it he's a horrible Titan shifter; he tried to kill mikasa the first time, he transformed to pick up a spoon, he lost against Annie once, he got massacred by her the second time except in the anime, he lost to Reiner and bertholdt...

    Oh what a great power he has... He's only really good for killing mindless titans. Big whoop, mikasa and Levi could probably kill more.

    Oh then he finds out he can control titans. Let's not forget he has no clue how he did it nor how it works, and considering it takes resolve in order to use it...

    Eren transformed into a Titan to pick up A SPOON. Yeah, that's the guy who has the coordinator ability. In interested to see where the heck this could go, how the beast Titan will react, and what is going to happen to the colossals in the wall.

    Stop complaining. This is a brilliant story, you can't have more plot than this even if you tried. It's so anti one dimensional, unlike most shonen, there's no pleasing the people who are against this.
    I agree I don't see any problems. Humanity went from having ZERO hope of survival having to not only face an insurmountable number of mindless titans who exist only to consume humans and seemingly invincible titan shifters. Eren becoming a shifter and gaining the coordinate ability simply gave humanity a glimmer of hope, a fighting chance. But theres no telling how reliable the power will be and also how will humanity react to him gaining this power, especially the wall cult they might push even further to have him executed. Theres just sooooo many what ifs I personally think the story and plot twists are amazing and I can't wait to see what chapter 51 holds for us.
    Last edited by kannazuki; November 04, 2013 at 04:24 PM.

  5. #20
    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner Gmuni's Avatar
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    Re: Deus Ex Machina

    I actually like shounen manga and started reading AoT because it was labeled shounen. Deus ex machina is something commonly used by them and it doesn't really bother me. Anywho this manga hasn't used any at all compared to the other ones. I don't see how using a particular plot device can sabotage a well written like this one anyway.

  6. #21
    MangaHelper 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Demonspeed's Avatar
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    Re: Deus Ex Machina

    I don't see it as a Deus Ex Machina, actually everything which happened in the manga was foreshadowed, excepted Eren's Titan transformation.
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/signaturepics/sigpic172142_25.gif

  7. #22
    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member kannazuki's Avatar
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    Re: Deus Ex Machina

    An unlikely event? Sure. Did Isayama not do enough to establish this? Perhaps. But a deus ex machina? Not at all. A DEM is something that writers come up with when they've written themselves into a corner due to poor planning. You might argue he should have included some more direct hinting, but this was always possible. The signs were there, albeit subtle. Subtlety has been a hallmark of this story.

    Eren receiving a "power" that could help him protect everyone (as Dr. Yeager put it) was established and being a titan is a great power in and of itself but that wasn't going to help him get back to the basement in Shiganshina by itself; "their memories" were established (convenient perhaps, but established, while also opening up the mystery of who "they" are); herding and then control of titans were also established. We know that Isayama has had this manga's storyline planned out for ages. The "suddenness" of Chapter 50's reveal is actually much like that of chapter 10's. Yes, it's typical in shounen for a power to manifest at the time it's most needed, but the way the story is built and the world the story takes place in, even while full of mysteries, allows for this step to be taken as a logical progression.
    Last edited by kannazuki; November 04, 2013 at 04:22 PM.

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  9. #23
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member
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    Re: Deus Ex Machina

    Quote Originally Posted by kannazuki View Post
    An unlikely event? Sure. Did Isayama not do enough to establish this? Perhaps. But a deus ex machina? Not at all. A DEM is something that writers come up with when they've written themselves into a corner due to poor planning. You might argue he should have included some more direct hinting, but this was always possible. The signs were there, albeit subtle. Subtlety has been a hallmark of this story.

    Eren receiving a "power" that could help him protect everyone (as Dr. Yeager put it) was established and being a titan is a great power in and of itself but that wasn't going to help him get back to the basement in Shiganshina by itself; "their memories" were established (convenient perhaps, but established, while also opening up the mystery of who "they" are); herding and then control of titans were also established. We know that Isayama has had this manga's storyline planned out for ages. The "suddenness" of Chapter 50's reveal is actually much like that of chapter 10's. Yes, it's typical in shounen for a power to manifest at the time it's most needed, but the way the story is built and the world the story takes place in, even while full of mysteries, allows for this step to be taken as a logical progression.
    This ^

    However I will say that it may feel like a DEM when it's not. It's the same with Ymir's reveal. She would only have done it if there was no other possible option, so he had to write a seemingly inescapable circumstance for it to make sense. The same applies to Eren conjuring up the strength to unleash the coordinate thing.
    Last edited by kannazuki; November 04, 2013 at 04:23 PM.

  10. #24
    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member Sigma's Avatar
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    Re: Deus Ex Machina

    Quote Originally Posted by epictoads View Post
    It's the same with Ymir's reveal. She would only have done it if there was no other possible option, so he had to write a seemingly inescapable circumstance for it to make sense. The same applies to Eren conjuring up the strength to unleash the coordinate thing.
    I disagree. With Yimir she didn't save the day and would have died if the Scouting Legion hadn't shown up when they did. All she really did was buy time. I think the coordinate reveal is much more debatable than that. That being said, those who have said it wasn't a Deus Ex Machina have made some good points.

    Quote Originally Posted by quoux
    Stop complaining. This is a brilliant story, you can't have more plot than this even if you tried. It's so anti one dimensional, unlike most shonen, there's no pleasing the people who are against this.
    There are people who have opinions that are different than yours and they are free to express them. Don't let it bother you so much that not everyone always agrees with you.
    Last edited by kannazuki; November 04, 2013 at 04:24 PM.

  11. #25
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member
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    Re: Deus Ex Machina

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigma View Post
    I disagree. With Yimir she didn't save the day and would have died if the Scouting Legion hadn't shown up when they did. All she really did was buy time. I think the coordinate reveal is much more debatable than that. That being said, those who have said it wasn't a Deus Ex Machina have made some good points.
    People were saying that Ymir was DEM when it first happened (it ended with Ynir transforming and looking like she would save everyone from an otherwise inescapable situation). I was saying that Ymir would only have done it if she had no choice, hence why the situation had to be like that. Which is sinilar to the Coordinate thing.

  12. #26
    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member quoux's Avatar
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    Re: Deus Ex Machina

    Quote Quote:
    There are people who have opinions that are different than yours and they are free to express them. Don't let it bother you so much that not everyone always agrees with you.
    I'm just arguing x) I choose to argue fiercely. I'll argue my opinion against theirs. I'm just using their words verbatem and putting it in a perspective that should make their logistics seem inferior in an arguement. It's not that I'm bothered whatsoever, just discussing in my own style

    Quote Quote:
    People were saying that Ymir was DEM when it first happened (it ended with Ynir transforming and looking like she would save everyone from an otherwise inescapable situation). I was saying that Ymir would only have done it if she had no choice, hence why the situation had to be like that. Which is sinilar to the Coordinate thing.
    I agree. I don't know many Dues Ex Machina that end up with the character who experienced it almost dying. It would be a lot stranger, anyway, for Ymir to have revealed her Titan powers in the same way Reiner and bertholdt did.

  13. #27
    MH Senpai 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member MiyamotoMusashi's Avatar
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    Re: Deus Ex Machina

    Maybe i am not knowledgeable enough regarding SnK, so i may be overlooking something, but i am still surprised that so many people did not see Eren´s power coming, especially considering that it basically was introduced during Trost, namely when Eren let out a huge scream and the titans started to attack him instead of the soldiers around. I even remember thinking that Eren might develop the ability to consciously control titans. After the introduction of the other human-titans, i wondered why they never used the same power, so i am surprised that some people actually call this an asspull, considering it actually did the opposite for me, namely validate what i already assumed.

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  15. #28
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Deus Ex Machina

    I would think the scream at trost is actually completely unrelated to the coordinate. Annie did the exact same thing and as far as we can tell she is not a coordinate at all. The fact of the matter here is that normal titans can identify and target shifters, perhaps more so than they would target humans.

  16. #29
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    Re: Deus Ex Machina

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    I would think the scream at trost is actually completely unrelated to the coordinate. Annie did the exact same thing and as far as we can tell she is not a coordinate at all. The fact of the matter here is that normal titans can identify and target shifters, perhaps more so than they would target humans.
    It wasn't just the scream though, he was shouting "kill more, MORE" internally and they all came to him. Some of which wouldn't have had a direct line of sight either. And when he raised his fists at one of them is stood there screaming instead of going straight to bite him which is weird.

  17. #30
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Deus Ex Machina

    If eren had been using the coordinate then wouldn't RAB have felt it? Also, titans can hear as far as we know. Just the scream would have drawn titans which could not necessarily see eren. Think of how loud something as large as titan eren can be. Even then, annie drew many more titans than eren did from even further away.

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