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Talk-No-Jutsu....what is it? Is it a tool that is able to defeat any enemy that comes to it? Is it a nuclear bomb? No. It is diplomacy. In real life most of us dread the outbreak of war, most of us don't want where we live to be at risk of attack...the thought of 'you' being in danger and losing your life. But...in this novel why is it that we want to see fighting in order for a permanent change to be made? We don't want to see a ninja like Naruto talk to his enemies about right and wrong and what is practical...instead we want to see the hero or the protagonist cause bloodshed, or 'break the enemies arm'...put him into submission by force in order to reach the greatest change.
But if we really think about it...all this fighting that we love in Naruto...that we consider 'the good of the series'...must come to an end. All good things come to end...and most of the time it is by some form of diplomacy. Any kind of war, is the failure of Diplomacy. So what Naruto is doing right now...him talking to Obito is the attempt at triumphing in Diplomacy. So let us not be against 'talk-no-jutsu' because in the end, it's something we all prefer in real life anyway...and if it never happened in the manga then this manga would just be like any other manga where the superhero kills the villain with some final power up and everyone lives happily ever after. Here, Naruto tries to prevent bloodshed..
Yeah, we all know that the good guys who try to prevent bloodshed are good and the bad guys who (for whatever noble cause) try to cause it are bad.
That's not the problem with TnJ. The problem is the speed at which Naruto makes the villains switch sides. Just minutes ago, Obito was in his Pod of Sulking going "I don't care about you, I'll just let Shinju drain you of chakra and life". Then, Naruto and Sasuke did Kuranoo and everyone got their own Rasengan from one of the tails, and Obito suddenly started imagining his Hokage self. This is even lvl2 compared to the one with Nagato - it started working shortly before Naruto began talking.
That speed is ridiculous. First Nagato, now Obito. We're talking about villains with years of hatred behind them, and were shown to be pretty much unwaveringly convinced, and then turned to the good side in just a while of Naruto talking. IRL, it won't happen, at least because it'd make you feel "What the hell was I working for all those years", and it feels like shit. Convincing someone like Naruto does is like brainwashing in that aspect - it's like you forget all that could push you into not going over to Naruto's side.
I think it's a fair to assume that in all negotiations between warring factions the proposed outcome has to be mutually beneficial in order for an agreement to be struck. Therein lies the main issue with Naruto's TNJ; his proposed outcome is an undefined plan of action, based on the very ideology his enemy chose to discard. When questioned by Nagato he replies, "If there's such a thing as peace, I will find it!". On what basis does he have the right to make such a claim? What are Naruto's credentials? Beating th crap out his opponents until they accept his way of living?
Last edited by Dutchy; October 31, 2013 at 07:16 PM.
Just kill of Obito, he has nobody to follow his circle of hate, he is the very reason the world is so filled with hate right now. Naruto should have pointed that out, but that would destory the scene we have now, right? I would like to actually see someone do some redemption for once, all is forgiven once they turn sides or what? :P Zabuza had sacrificed himself at least.
edit: Naruto also used the famous "Not so different" card, as with Gaara and IIRC Nagato.
My conclusion is that it wouldn't be in such a boring state right now if Kishi could have reduced the usage of TnJ to one or two chapters max, not go on and on and on.
Last edited by Schabrak; October 31, 2013 at 08:30 PM.
i can see talk-no-jutsu capable of being successfully applied to every villain in the series but orochimaru and madara. madara has already made it clear that it's his way or the highway and even getting "killed" by hashirama once has not stopped him.. naruto cannot reason with madara, a man who seems to want sole control of the world himself (he may want to PERSONALLY [otherwise why would he care if he were revived or not if obito could carry his plan solo] control the world with moon's eye plan, or perhaps it's just a facade for something more sinister). orochimaru has NO redeeming qualities.. he's not even a "real threat" to anyone, he simply lives pursuing his own life's work which is why no one really bothers with him/everyone overlooks him as a villain. if orochimaru reaches the pinnacle of power, watch he pull off some crazy planetary jutsu **** because there is nothing crazier that could happen at this point.
talk no jutsu workes to those willing to follow
All peacemakers both in real life and fantasy stories, prefer to talk, but if the villains starts qq like "we have freedom and democracy, so i kill anyone i want"
it is the moment when you close your mouth and heart, you stop seeking peace, you just seek justice and you have to subdue him
Now finding the limit on how to subdue him is tricky, in most animes they just kill the villain, which is the easiest (morally) and the worst
Imprisonning or even convincing him would be a better but harder choice (and more epic, future prison breaks :P )
Wether you seek peace, or justice, you are following the path of righteousness, you may have to take hard decisions, but you must never use high morals as an excuse to harm the world, because the same time you will be out of that path, and you will be just a crazy selfish guy with power to destroy
Last edited by vasilis; November 03, 2013 at 08:34 AM.
To be fair naruto, I believe, is using a senjutsu powered TnJ that's why it's working so powerful
Some good points made in this thread.
Talk-no-jutsu is the Fukushima meltdown of this manga. Its effects contaminate literally everything that was once good and toxifies the environment so lethally that all subsequent arcs become horribly sick, mutated abominations like the one we're seeing now. Villains require courage of their convictions in order to be believable, and consequently it takes courage on the part of a writer to place himself into the mindset of someone whose thinking is (hopefully) completely inimical and abhorrent to their own. It is simply NOT in the least bit remotely believable that a borderline retard social pariah in an orange jumpsuit could convert someone who has become deeply scarred and entrenched in evil to their cause by spending five minutes talking to them.
When writers become rich and successful, their product turns into a franchise and they get bored and lazy, being strung along by editors and marketers to 'just do a little more' while the dollar/yen signs continue to rack up. Eventually the creative torch that lit the fire of the work's popularity splutters out under the drizzle of mediocrity and the fans divide into two camps that argue that it's 'still good' versus 'what is this bullshit?' Obviously, my position on the matter is not the former, and a lot of people try to prop up the 'it's still good' argument by saying 'oh well if you don't like it, don't read it!' or 'Kishimoto doesn't owe you anything!'. No, he doesn't owe me anything but I reserve the right to criticise his work for the glaring discrepancies and lack of creativity that has permeated it. I also read the manga because it was once good, and anything that starts off good is very difficult to put down until you reach the finish, no matter how shitty it becomes.
Anyway, back to TNJ. It's essentially the violation of one of the first rules of writing: show, don't tell. And with so many words, so much talking and arguing the same fucking points over and over, it's very much 'telling' the reader instead of showing them. It also weakens both sides as they engage in some kind of mawkish democratic compromise to try and browbeat the other into 'giving up', whereas any ruthless dictator or ninja would not waste time listening to his opponent trying to reason with him - he would annihilate him to eliminate the threat. Listening to someone else's propaganda is no different than allowing them time to cast a genjutsu on you. This is where the nature of shonen mangas ultimately cripples its villains because, certainly in Naruto's case, he can't and won't die - so the villains have to lose by default. This not only kills suspension of disbelief but leads the writer to think 'ah well it's too simple and brutish for the hero to just stick a kunai through the villain's mask eyehole... no... better make him into a sympathetic tragic figure who I can load with grandiose, pretentious motifs to compensate for his inability to meaningfully threaten the plot-armoured protagonist. Yeah, I know! I'll make them... TALK TO EACH OTHER!'
The thing is, part I worked because Naruto was just a child and having the kind of empty optimistic rhetoric could be brushed off as cute and aspirational because we knew he didn't know any better. Now he's nearing adulthood it's fucking meaningless and trite to run around shouting 'if there's such a thing as peace, I'll find it!', because it invites the very simple question of: 'how?'. Even if he somehow became leader of the ninja world and managed to maintain good relations between competing nations for the entirety of his lifetime, he would eventually die and the old ways would resume, albeit perhaps a little more watered down. So really, Nagato was right all along.
Last edited by Ermac; November 04, 2013 at 01:16 PM.
Talk no jutsu is likely Kishi's attempt to say that talking solves more problems than fighting. I mean, though Naruto and Pain were fighting, Naruto took the time to talk to Nagato and convert him back to good, who then decided to revive the people he killed. Itachi's talk no jutsu will probably turn Kabuto good, give him another chance as well, and allow Alliance to win or an easier victory, just as Itachi did when he ended the Edo Tensei.
It is a shame though, that talk no jutsu is prevalent. Hurts the manga and the whole setting of it. It's a manga about shinobi who kill, yet we're getting talking and converting to good nowadays when the whole thing should be a gray area like it was in Part I. Zabuza and Haku weren't necessarily bad guys, they were doing what they had to do to survive, and what they were taught to do from an early age. Though, talk no jutsu did happen, and Zabuza admitted he cared for Haku. In Gaara's case, it took a fight no jutsu fo rhim to change.
Reminds me of the first Pokemon movie where they had that hideous 'WHAT ARE WE FIGHTING FOR' love song moment at the end of the movie which is about creatures bred specifically to electrocute, burn and razor leaf the shit out of each other. I'm not against peaceful ideals but it makes no sense to just flip a very old and established system over so easily. If lone teenagers with a spunky never-say-die attitude could really change things at the drop of a hat then we would be living in a very different world.
Where Haku's TNJ only resulted in his own death. I suspect a darker twist to Naruto's version, as its target almost always becomes prone to suicide/sacrifice, Gaara being the exception. TNJ body count:
- and Neji (time-delayed TNJ).
Honestly I think it has as much to do with the Author trying to reach the younger generation and tell them that hey just because you're from different countries you don't have to fight. But it also works well into his story as it is the main point, it shows you that even the most evil of people become evil due to circumstances, and sometimes they can be reached, but not always.
Everything happens through circumstances, the universe, this galaxy, this planet, wars, piece, me drinking more tee than coffee, anything. Just imagine 1945, the allies have already invaded, but instead of killing the nazis they would actually try to talk and talk and talk with Hitler. Kishimoto is unrealistic and that hurts the plot.
This isn't supposed to follow Godwin's law, pick any tyran or murdering psychopath. :P
TBH I think this is a big part of it. For all of the skills and powerful mvoes that characters can do, I think TNJ is definitely Kishimoto's tool. The Pain arc, to me, was the very definition of Kishimoto's philosophy of the manga. He made the character Pain discuss 'understanding one another', and then 'reaching an agreement'. As if to say first, people have to get on the same page and actually understand where the other person is coming from and what they've been through. Like walking in another person's shoes. And in addition to this, he layered that just because people may understand one another, and can relate to one another, it doesn't mean they will come to an agreement with one another.
IMO this is TNJ. And we're seeing it again with Obito. The two understanding one another when they exchange blows and with Obito's barbs & Naruto's words. And now comes the difficult part... just like with Zabuza, Pain, etc.... the coming to an agreement part. Textbook Kishimoto. I don't think it's such a horrible thing. And it has evolved IMO. For example, while it is always emotionally charged with Naruto, now Naruto is coming from a place of additional experience and maturity. This is where to me, Kishimoto did a nice job developing Naruto's character. He isn't crying about 'how sad' something is. He's remembering all of his experiences which have toughened him and solidified his 'TNJ' ability, which makes it more effective against Obito. Does that make sense? It does to me. In otherwords, with the character Naruto, TNJ from a 13 year was effective. But now that he's maybe 17 or so and gone through so much more, his perspective comes from far more experience and we, the readers, have seen what he's had to suffer through. TNJ.
He hasn't really endured anything significant. No one close to him has died. Sarutobi and Asuma don't count. The village shunning him no longer makes any sense for multiple reasons. He's never gone without food or shelter or had his country reduced to a smoking pile of rubble (Pain's destruction of Konoha was repaired within what... a week? by the convenient one-man timber company Yamato). It's really difficult to take him seriously because his life, barring a couple of minor setbacks, has been pretty easy really.