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Thread: Kaien's death or Isshin's leaving without permission that removed the shiba clan from the 5 great noble families?

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    Kaien's death or Isshin's leaving without permission that removed the shiba clan from the 5 great noble families?

    Was just wondering if kaien died before or after Isshin lost his powers and left SS. There were several mentions early on in the manga about the shiba's fall from grace but not specified whether it was kaiens death (which is harsh on a 'great noble family' your leaders dead and your removed from the 'list') or was it Isshin who left his post to the human world without permission and never returned due to the loss of his soul reaper powers that cost the shiba clan their prestigious status? what do you guys think?

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    Re: Kaien's death or Isshin's leaving without permission that removed the shiba clan from the 5 great noble families?

    In some recent discussion, someone claimed it was a loong time before the Pendulum arc. Anyway, Kaien left Rukongai to become a shinigami, so he couldn't have been a noble back then, and Isshin became captain much later, so none of these event could've been the reason.

    If I had to throw a wild guess about the actual reason, it must've been some kinda whole family related mess. Something damn huge. If the SS high command was the bunch of dicks that would cancel the noble state of a family because of just one person, they would've had it in them to just have that person executed (like Rukia - even if that was perpetrated by Aizen, the Central 46 decided on capital punishment reeeally easily) and get it over with more simply.
    Erfworld

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    Re: Kaien's death or Isshin's leaving without permission that removed the shiba clan from the 5 great noble families?

    That could be it, but in the Isshin captain arc. over 20 years, Rangiku states the he needs to watch the way he acts even if he is apart of the branch family he is still part of the great noble family shiba clan. And I dont know exactly when kaiens death was if it was a fews years back or more so I wasnt too sure if it was them or it was kaien. But Soi-fong did say to yoruichi if you keep acting like this she'll lose the great noble clan status just like the shiba. it seems the fall of a great noble isnt pretty' during their fight.

    So I dont know if it is just a plot hole

    And it seems each noble clan is tasked with something to do with the soul society. kuchiki were the history of SS shinhouin was to guards the war tools/treasured tools and I think shiba clans is to serve the royal guard when they come down cause they are the royal guards transport

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    Re: Kaien's death or Isshin's leaving without permission that removed the shiba clan from the 5 great noble families?

    Don't mean to be rude or anything but there is in no way shape or form any proof that Isshin become a captain after the events of Kaien, he could very well have been a captain looooooong before that, but for continuity sake wasn't shown or talked about because theres more to his backstory, from what we have seen of his 'backstory' he was a young captain but he seems more of the same age as Shunsui and Utikaite (excuse spelling), and also the Shinigami Uniform he wore when he killed GF is that of the same design Kubo showed us during the Unohana and Zaraki Backstory. Even if he's not the same age as Shunsui, he is most definitely older the Kenny and co
    Spoiler show

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    Re: Kaien's death or Isshin's leaving without permission that removed the shiba clan from the 5 great noble families?

    Quote Originally Posted by devstauk View Post
    Don't mean to be rude or anything but there is in no way shape or form any proof that Isshin become a captain after the events of Kaien, he could very well have been a captain looooooong before that, but for continuity sake wasn't shown or talked about because theres more to his backstory, from what we have seen of his 'backstory' he was a young captain but he seems more of the same age as Shunsui and Utikaite (excuse spelling), and also the Shinigami Uniform he wore when he killed GF is that of the same design Kubo showed us during the Unohana and Zaraki Backstory. Even if he's not the same age as Shunsui, he is most definitely older the Kenny and co
    I always thought we had all captains in TBTP arc... but now that I checked

    1st- Yamaji
    2nd- Yoruichi
    3rd- Rose
    4th- Unohana
    5th- Shinji
    6th- Ginrei
    7th- Love
    8th- Shunsui
    9th- Kensei
    10th-
    11th- previous Kenpachi
    12th- Urahara
    13th- Ukitake

    Indeed, we were always missing 10th Squad captain in TBTP arc... and we still have previous 3rd Squad captain who retired. But when they asked if everyone was assembled already, they talked only about Kenpachi. That'd mean reason for 10th absence had been widely known and it ws obvious he wouldn't come.

    @Edit: And Isshin clearly knows about Nimaya.
    Last edited by Duniak; November 16, 2013 at 12:59 PM.

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    Re: Kaien's death or Isshin's leaving without permission that removed the shiba clan from the 5 great noble families?

    Quote Originally Posted by devstauk View Post
    Don't mean to be rude or anything but there is in no way shape or form any proof that Isshin become a captain after the events of Kaien, he could very well have been a captain looooooong before that, but for continuity sake wasn't shown or talked about because theres more to his backstory, from what we have seen of his 'backstory' he was a young captain but he seems more of the same age as Shunsui and Utikaite (excuse spelling), and also the Shinigami Uniform he wore when he killed GF is that of the same design Kubo showed us during the Unohana and Zaraki Backstory. Even if he's not the same age as Shunsui, he is most definitely older the Kenny and co
    What if Isshin was a non-captain shinigami for a long time before he became a Captain? For all we know he could be centuries old

    So maybe in the TBTP arc he was around, just not as a captain

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    Re: Kaien's death or Isshin's leaving without permission that removed the shiba clan from the 5 great noble families?

    Quote Originally Posted by devstauk View Post
    Don't mean to be rude or anything but there is in no way shape or form any proof that Isshin become a captain after the events of Kaien, he could very well have been a captain looooooong before that, but for continuity sake wasn't shown or talked about because theres more to his backstory, from what we have seen of his 'backstory' he was a young captain but he seems more of the same age as Shunsui and Utikaite (excuse spelling), and also the Shinigami Uniform he wore when he killed GF is that of the same design Kubo showed us during the Unohana and Zaraki Backstory. Even if he's not the same age as Shunsui, he is most definitely older the Kenny and co
    I don't think so. According to TBTP the Captain of the 10th Division at that time was dead, so Isshin wasn't there, yet. Kaien, however was being offered the position of Vice-Captain around this time. At best Isshin would have been still in school, maybe getting ready to graduate around this time.

    It's possible he and Kaien were both in the Gotei 13 at some point in time. If both events happened in close proximity to one another, it may have greatly crippled the Shiba Clan.

    I also don't think we can go by what he was wearing then and what he was wearing now as an indicator. We also can't say anything about his age.
    Last edited by eefrit; November 16, 2013 at 10:43 PM.

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    Re: Kaien's death or Isshin's leaving without permission that removed the shiba clan from the 5 great noble families?

    Quote Originally Posted by eefrit View Post
    I don't think so. According to TBTP the Captain of the 10th Division at that time was dead, so Isshin wasn't there, yet. Kaien, however was being offered the position of Vice-Captain around this time. At best Isshin would have been still in school, maybe getting ready to graduate around this time.

    It's possible he and Kaien were both in the Gotei 13 at some point in time. If both events happened in close proximity to one another, it may have greatly crippled the Shiba Clan.

    I also don't think we can go by what he was wearing then and what he was wearing now as an indicator. We also can't say anything about his age.
    I can't find anything on 10th Squad captain being dead. All we know is 210 years ago only Shunsui, Unohana, Yamaji and Ukitake were captains.

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    Re: Kaien's death or Isshin's leaving without permission that removed the shiba clan from the 5 great noble families?

    But then how is isshin kaien's uncle, it doesnt really make alot of sense Isshin being a younger uncle then his nephew kaien
    Spoiler show

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    Re: Kaien's death or Isshin's leaving without permission that removed the shiba clan from the 5 great noble families?

    Someone with more knowledge can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think 'Uncle' in this context doesn't actually mean a parent's sibling, it's just a term used for a senior member of the family. I'd presume seniority goes for position rather than age where applicable as well. Isshin was the only Shiba Captain we know of, so he would be the most senior member of the family, even if Kaien or Kukaku were older, which they may or may not have been.

    I'm not sure whether to believe what happened to Kaien came before or after Memories in the Rain. I'd have said definitely before, because for one thing Aaroniero ate Mestacia and was called "the last of the 1st generation Espada" by Zommari (which doesn't make sense since Baraggan seems to have been the very 1st Arrancar Aizen subdued).

    But I don't know, Rukia didn't recognise Isshin despite seeing him many times, which would suggest she joined the 13th Division afterwards (which I'm also pretty certain she didn't). Either Kaien gave up the leadership position to Isshin when he surpassed him, which wouldn't surprise me since he didn't seem keen on having too much responsibility (wasn't he refusing a promotion from Ukitake in TBtP?), or he died over 20 years ago and Isshin took up the lead after that.

    Bah. Either way, I don't think charging into the WotL is why the Shiba clan are in disgrace now. SS apparently hadn't tracked him down, so he must have been presumed dead. It seems odd to me that SS would inflict further punishment on the clan after their head got killed. Whatever the case, I wouldn't think such an offence would be enough to have a noble clan torn down like that. I have a feeling this comes down to another one of Aizen's antics. Kukaku was in contact with Yoruichi by the looks of it, perhaps she somehow found out that Aizen was behind two disasters that fell upon the Shibas, so he pulled some scheme to discredit and ruin them. Or maybe it's something to do with their apparent closeness to the Royal Guard - controlling the way to reach the Reioukyu is a pretty big deal.
    Last edited by NoOneInParticular; November 17, 2013 at 08:54 AM.

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    Re: Kaien's death or Isshin's leaving without permission that removed the shiba clan from the 5 great noble families?

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    I can't find anything on 10th Squad captain being dead. All we know is 210 years ago only Shunsui, Unohana, Yamaji and Ukitake were captains.
    Cnet Translation Chapter -108, Page 15

    Quote Quote:
    Shunsui: The Third Captain retired... // The Twelfth got promoted... // It's not like anybody died, like the Tenth Captain. // Peaceful enough, don't you think?
    Plus this translation.

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    Re: Kaien's death or Isshin's leaving without permission that removed the shiba clan from the 5 great noble families?

    Quote Originally Posted by eefrit View Post
    Cnet Translation Chapter -108, Page 15



    Plus this translation.

    It's official, I'm getting old and blind. So Isshin was a noname 110 years ago after all. And was an uncle for a guy who was VC, but he himself wasn't a seated officer. Where the hell was he ffs and why did he come back after 90 years?

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    Re: Kaien's death or Isshin's leaving without permission that removed the shiba clan from the 5 great noble families?

    I thought Kubo made that clear, that Isshin was the 10th division captain the same time Kaien was VC to the 13th division squad. And Kaien was still a VC, even after, Isshin's departure from SS.

    I'm thinking that the Shiba clan aided Urahara and others to escape SS and Central 46 deemed their Noble family unworthy to reside in SS. I hope, Kubo explains this in further detail.

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    Re: Kaien's death or Isshin's leaving without permission that removed the shiba clan from the 5 great noble families?

    I know earlier I said Isshin may have still been in school at best, but there is a possibility he may have been a seated officer. There is even the possibility that he may have been the Vice Captain and got promoted after the events of TBTP since S.S. lost 7 Captains(including Tessai) in the span of a night. I don't think that's the case though seeing as how he looked relatively young even by Shinigami standard.

    Thinking about it now, Rukia should have recognized him as she became a member of the Divisions after Byakuya and Gin became Captains. That was around 50 years ago. Isshin left the Gotei 13 20 years ago, so unless Rukia completely avoided the 10th Division, she should have recognized him. I guess it could be because he aged in the human world, but I find that unlikely.

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    Re: Kaien's death or Isshin's leaving without permission that removed the shiba clan from the 5 great noble families?

    Quote Originally Posted by eefrit View Post
    I know earlier I said Isshin may have still been in school at best, but there is a possibility he may have been a seated officer. There is even the possibility that he may have been the Vice Captain and got promoted after the events of TBTP since S.S. lost 7 Captains(including Tessai) in the span of a night. I don't think that's the case though seeing as how he looked relatively young even by Shinigami standard.
    He was in school when his nephew or something was a VC? xd And 20 years ago he could be as strong as Aizen in terms of swordmanship without Shikai. Being VC would be strange too. Guy with such immense strength shouldn't be a VC level and get stronger than G13 in the span of those 80-90 years.

    Quote Originally Posted by eefrit View Post
    Thinking about it now, Rukia should have recognized him as she became a member of the Divisions after Byakuya and Gin became Captains. That was around 50 years ago. Isshin left the Gotei 13 20 years ago, so unless Rukia completely avoided the 10th Division, she should have recognized him. I guess it could be because he aged in the human world, but I find that unlikely.
    Even Matsumoto played dumb. Hitsugaya, Matsumoto, Renji, Ikkaku and Yumichika were living in Ichigo's house and they didn't recognize him. Plotholes everywhere. >.< Kubo'll retcon it I guess, for now we're left with doubts. He didn't change THAT much.

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