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Thread: Kaien's death or Isshin's leaving without permission that removed the shiba clan from the 5 great noble families?

  1. #16
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Schabrak's Avatar
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    Re: Kaien's death or Isshin's leaving without permission that removed the shiba clan from the 5 great noble families?

    He did grow a beard and looked like double the age of his time twenty years ago. He has grown like a normal human. This has been discussed before when all those questions came up for the first time during the origin flashbacks.
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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member devstauk's Avatar
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    Re: Kaien's death or Isshin's leaving without permission that removed the shiba clan from the 5 great noble families?

    Plus he had next to none SP while in HW until he left his body and became a shinigami again, which also adds more questions to the enigma that is Isshin Shiba
    Spoiler show

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    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member raikwolf's Avatar
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    Re: Kaien's death or Isshin's leaving without permission that removed the shiba clan from the 5 great noble families?

    Well, I just read some chapter and here are the facts:
    TBTP: Ukitake asking Kaien to be VC, Gin entering the GOTEI 13, Aizen's scheme, Vizored thing (No Rukia, No Matsumoto), we see a younger Byakuya and Mayuri.
    Rukia's FB on Kaien's death, he is shown as VC (no date or clues on who was around except for the fact that she enters SS with Byakuya and Gin as captains).
    Isshin FB: Byakuya shown as captain along with Gin and Tosen, and Mayuri too.

    So here are my theories:
    I believe that Kaien is already dead when Isshin is shown as captain, of course we don't know when he took over that position, in my opinion he most have don't it soon after TBTP I don't think that SS would be missing a captain for too long.
    If the clan helped Urahara to escape Isshin would have know him (maybe?)
    The fact that no one seems to recognize him or his reiatsu maybe Aizen's work?, we still don't know if we are done with him so he may have use Kyokasuigetsu on SS to make them forget him just as he made them believe the "water-type" thing. Also Ichigo resembles Kaien (and Ukitake notice this), everyone have seem him using GT, but no one made the match? (Matsumoto & Toshiro should have seem the technique before when fighting alongside Isshin, if they ever did it).

    Another Fact is the Shinji did not recognise isshin's rietsu, to me that indicates that isshin wasn't known about 101-110 years ago (thx Uzumaki D bleach)

    So Shiba's Clan disgrace must be a sum of all things around them, Kaien's death, Isshin's missing... didn't Byakuya mark as fact that they fall on disgrace after a prominent member's death?
    Last edited by raikwolf; November 19, 2013 at 01:53 AM.


  4. #19
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    Re: Kaien's death or Isshin's leaving without permission that removed the shiba clan from the 5 great noble families?

    I like that parts of that theory except for a few parts.
    Your saying matsumoto and toshirou saw isshin when they were living with ichigo? I was under the impression they were there only for a brief period of time and never actually met isshin or karin and yuzu (talking about manga not anime) while in the human world in ichigos house.
    Another Fact is the Shinji did not recognise isshin's rietsu, to me that indicates that isshin wasn't known about 101-110 years ago,
    He indeed could have been in the soul academy at that time though. He did say he was part of the academy and we already know the nobles don't have to go through the academy to join gotei 13.
    As far as I am aware of I didn't know they had seen ichigos zanpakto ability until at least the battle at fake karakura town, where isshin showed up, they weren't dead and aizen stated it would even be difficult falling unconscious with those wounds so toshirou might have recognised him then and rangiku was running around all injured but was preoccupied by her devotion to gin to really be surprised by isshins appearance.
    And it was stated that kisukes gigai couldn't be traced regularly like other gigais they could hide spirit pressure. They tracked down rukia because she still had some sp left isshin didn't have any so that could be why SS could never find him.
    And byakuya did say something about shiba clan however I cannot recall what though

    Just my thoughts what do you guys think? this is cool this always something this has interested me with bleach thanks for the input people

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    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member raikwolf's Avatar
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    Re: Kaien's death or Isshin's leaving without permission that removed the shiba clan from the 5 great noble families?

    Oh nop, I mean that Hitsu and Matsumoto should know GT from their days fighting along side their captain (Isshin), so if they saw Ichigo's GT they should recognize it, but as you said it seem that that is not the case. In fact, now that I think of it... who has seen it? Ikkaku, Urahara, Rukya, Byakuya, Kenpachi... but it seem no one from the ones who may know Isshin. I will add the Shinji fact! thx!!!


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    Re: Kaien's death or Isshin's leaving without permission that removed the shiba clan from the 5 great noble families?

    No worries, this always made me curious I would laugh however if it was just a plot hole.

    Although if I think again isshin might have met 13 court gaurd squad when they were giving ichigo his powers back they got everyone to out rietsu into it and isshin was there bringing chad out of the battle. plus the 10 day skip after aizen battle for all we know the hole story and catchup might have been done during those times. A reason why I think this could be it is oemaiyda sayign to renji you already knew this wasnt going to work only he diidnt. this might mean that the story was already spread accros the 13 divisions and thats why 'on screen' they werent shocked.

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    Re: Kaien's death or Isshin's leaving without permission that removed the shiba clan from the 5 great noble families?

    I once posted this in the chapter discussion thread to further clarify that neither Isshin nor Kaien have something to do with the disgrace of the Shiba clan I wil repost it here too:

    Quote Quote:
    The manga indicates the Shiba fell long before Kaien died and even before Kaien became a shinigami.

    Ganju makes it clear that he and his siblings were raised in the Rukongai. Only the commoners are raised in the Rukongai. The nobles are raised in Seireitei.

    Kaien left the the Rukongai to enter the academy and Ganju said he couldn't understand why Kaien wanted to become a shinigami when he should have hated them.

    Kaien also took the exams. Shinigami from the Great Noble Clans don't take the exams. That was one of the things that made Rukia feel isolated: as a Kuchiki, she didn't take the exams whereas other shinigami had to. Kaien took exams, so he did not have the Great Noble Clan exemption.

    This is also confirmed in TBTP when it's stated there are Four Great Noble Clans. The Shiba definitely fell before TBTP. Credits to Milareppa
    Last edited by Mohsen; November 19, 2013 at 08:54 AM.

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    Re: Kaien's death or Isshin's leaving without permission that removed the shiba clan from the 5 great noble families?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mohsen View Post
    I once posted this in the chapter discussion thread to further clarify that Neither Isshin nor Kaien has something to do with the disgrace of the Shiba clan I wil repost it here too:
    Hmm, I didnt recall it being said that there were Four Great Clans in TBTP, but looking through it again, there it was, clear as day in Chapter -106. Milareppa hits gold yet again.

  9. #24
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    Re: Kaien's death or Isshin's leaving without permission that removed the shiba clan from the 5 great noble families?

    Quote Originally Posted by raikwolf View Post
    Oh nop, I mean that Hitsu and Matsumoto should know GT from their days fighting along side their captain (Isshin), so if they saw Ichigo's GT they should recognize it, but as you said it seem that that is not the case. In fact, now that I think of it... who has seen it? Ikkaku, Urahara, Rukya, Byakuya, Kenpachi... but it seem no one from the ones who may know Isshin. I will add the Shinji fact! thx!!!
    There is another issue at hand. Which seriously hampers who knows about Isshin. After all he was a captain. And him leaving for earth marrying a quincy...that would be not easy to hide.

    Remember Hitsugaya being under him in his squad? Hinamori was a soulreaper prior to him. And we all know that Hinamori was talking bout Aizen etc, and her being with Renji,Kira and tatooface in training.
    This also means Rukia was already in training too. Thus she should have known at least who Isshin was. I mean the captains are practically celebrities in Soul Society.

    Its all a chain, who knows who at what point and Isshin being a captain WITH Hitsugaya under him shifts all of the others forward too. Actually everyone thats in the Gotei now that was in the storyline with Hinamori/Renji should know who he was. At least by first name.

    So like i said Rukia seeing Isshin and then Ichigo looks like Kaien. C'mon as if she didnt know about Kaiens uncle in the Gotei? Actually she brought his corpse back to their family so she knew where he lived, knew his wife. Im sure Kaien must have mentioned Isshin. And even if Isshin became a captain after his death then that means she would know it even more so since instating new captains is anounced publicly. So Isshin Shiba as captain would be known.
    And then he disapeared, if they swept it under the rug that he got involved with a quincy that is.

    But there is more. Yuruichi is helping out Urahara, who already was exiled, and it seems Kukaku knew about him as well. That is Urahara. And how they *help* him when helping Ichigo. So all these people know eachother.

    Then Rukia casually shops at Uraharas, the dude is exiled/wanted criminal. So why is she at his place? Who sent her there? This all is rather off screen.

    The only explanation that i can think of is that Yuruichi or Urahara contacted Rukia and made clear not to talk about Isshin to Ichigo. Also its to question how she came at Ichigos house and in his room. Which is even more weird. I mean the connections are that close its odd to believe she just happend to walk into his bedroom.
    If anything its possible Urahara *steered* her into that direction.

    Thats my ideas about the Isshin connection to SS and the characters in general. Which makes it hard to look past his position as captain. Even if they dont recognize his last name they should his first.

  10. #25
    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member RedBerserk's Avatar
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    Re: Kaien's death or Isshin's leaving without permission that removed the shiba clan from the 5 great noble families?

    When Aizen attacked Isshin during the flashback, he had the hooded cloak that Urahara used when he was a captain, saying it was a great parting gift --> http://www.mangareader.net/bleach/532/3 that means Isshin wasn't a captain during the TBTP arc etc.
    Last edited by RedBerserk; November 19, 2013 at 11:43 PM.

  11. #26
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member devstauk's Avatar
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    Re: Kaien's death or Isshin's leaving without permission that removed the shiba clan from the 5 great noble families?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedBerserk View Post
    When Aizen attacked Isshin during the flashback, he had the hooded cloak that Urahara used when he was a captain, saying it was a great parting gift --> http://www.mangareader.net/bleach/532/3 that means Isshin wasn't a captain during the TBTP arc etc.
    Erm how? that just proves to me that urahara left the cloak in the science and research department nothing more o.O
    Spoiler show

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    Re: Kaien's death or Isshin's leaving without permission that removed the shiba clan from the 5 great noble families?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedBerserk View Post
    When Aizen attacked Isshin during the flashback, he had the hooded cloak that Urahara used when he was a captain, saying it was a great parting gift --> http://www.mangareader.net/bleach/532/3 that means Isshin wasn't a captain during the TBTP arc etc.
    2+2=4, so answer to your question is purple. And that's how much sense your justification has.

  13. #28
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    Re: Kaien's death or Isshin's leaving without permission that removed the shiba clan from the 5 great noble families?

    Quote Originally Posted by devstauk View Post
    Erm how? that just proves to me that urahara left the cloak in the science and research department nothing more o.O
    I agree, that doesn't prove shit. Other then Aizen going through Uraharas toybox. Actually the only proof of timeframe that there is is that 110 years prior the 10th division captain met a untimely death. http://www.mangainn.com/manga/chapte...315.01/page_14Also the mentioning that leaving a captains seat open for too long is not something they usually do. So with 2 seats empty they kinda rushed in Urahara during that arc. (btw not saying he didnt deserve to be a captain, just pointing out that they probably rushed everyone there to get it over with or w/e).
    This is possibly what could prove Isshin wasnt a captain at that point. But most likely not short after. And that would suggest that the current captains should know him.
    Anyways the officers that are in seat at that time during TBTP and still are now should have known him. Why? Well they were active and in meetings as captains. Masaki has a regular human lifespan. So for him to be a captain he had to be like 20 years ago? Unohana, both the twin blade wielders, the Lts that became captains and most of the seated officers that moved up like Mayuri and others, they all had to know him.
    On top of that being active in the squads for like 100 years like Rukia,Renji,Kira etc etc etc would know that Isshin Shiba roughly 20 years ago was a captain. We already confirmed Toshiro was seated 3rd during his time as captain > thats after momo enrolled cause she enrolled first into the soulreapers. And she enrolled together with Rukia,Renji etc etc etc.
    So its just the math. They should know him.

  14. #29
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Lee.J.Baxter's Avatar
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    Re: Kaien's death or Isshin's leaving without permission that removed the shiba clan from the 5 great noble families?

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Even Matsumoto played dumb. Hitsugaya, Matsumoto, Renji, Ikkaku and Yumichika were living in Ichigo's house and they didn't recognize him. Plotholes everywhere. >.< Kubo'll retcon it I guess, for now we're left with doubts. He didn't change THAT much.
    Here's my take of how various characters didn't recognise him;

    During the Arrancar arc, the Shinigami staying at Ichigo's house were basically sneaking around, trying not to be caught; in other words, they may have not actually seen Isshin during that time! I you're creeping around, you wouldn't wait around until you SAW the person you were hiding from; you'd hide as soon as you HEAR them! Furthermore, if they did see him it would likely be from behind; after all, if they saw his face it would have been likely that he would have caught them!

    Now Rukia's a tough one, as she actually spoke with Isshin and he allowed her to stay at his house! There's 2 possibilities here, as I doubt she wouldn't recognise him if she'd seen him before; either she was playing dumb, or he had already left when she became a Shinigami...

    Personally, by the look on Matsumoto's face when Isshin and Ichigo arrived from the dangai to face Aizen, I think it's likely she recognised him; she had a sort of startled look on her face upon seeing them both, and I think some of that surprise was at seeing Isshin (the only reason she didn't react to seeing him is because she was holding onto Gin as he died). Again, I doubt she wouldn't recognise him just because he'd grown a beard...

    ---------- Post added at 01:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:25 PM ----------

    Anyways, I believe the reason behind the Shiba clan's removal from the noble families may have had something to do with Aizen; he framed Urahara after all, so its likely he spouted a few lies backed up by his KS to the C46 about Isshin's reasons for leaving (or getting thrown out of) the Soul Society.
    Predictions
    • Just as Quincies are evolved beings born from Humans, Shinigami are evolved beings born from Hollows.
    • Once Yhwach dies, Ichigo's Quincy powers will disappear and his soul will become unstable, causing the onset of Soul Suicide.
    • Yhwach isn't going to be the final antagonist.

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    Re: Kaien's death or Isshin's leaving without permission that removed the shiba clan from the 5 great noble families?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee.J.Baxter View Post
    Now Rukia's a tough one, as she actually spoke with Isshin and he allowed her to stay at his house! There's 2 possibilities here, as I doubt she wouldn't recognise him if she'd seen him before; either she was playing dumb, or he had already left when she became a Shinigami...

    Personally, by the look on Matsumoto's face when Isshin and Ichigo arrived from the dangai to face Aizen, I think it's likely she recognised him; she had a sort of startled look on her face upon seeing them both, and I think some of that surprise was at seeing Isshin (the only reason she didn't react to seeing him is because she was holding onto Gin as he died). Again, I doubt she wouldn't recognise him just because he'd grown a beard...
    I thought Matsumoto's face was due to Gin dying, and it was "What the hell is going on" + fear of losing Gin. But yeah, she might have recognised him. Why didn't Kubo add small bubble like "Why is he here?".

    Rukia became a Shinigami and seated officer when Kaien was in SS, so more than 110 years ago. She should recognise the man, really. He was a captain, basically a celebrity, when she was a 3rd seat or something.

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