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Thread: Anatomy of shinigami

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    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member
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    Anatomy of shinigami

    So this is really starting to bug me. When does the issue of human anatomy come into play and what conditions allow shinigami to disregard it completely?

    On one hand, in scenes like when Hinamori and Rangitsu fought Aron, Kibo spends pages spilling gibberish about broken ribs and lungs impairing their breathing etc.

    On the other hand, Kenpachi, Tsukishima and Komamura get giant holes in their chest cavities but continue fighting without worrying about a collapsed lung...

    Is it just for convenience's sake? 'Cause that's just cheating.

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    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Razh's Avatar
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    Re: Anatomy of shinigami

    Best to put suspension of disbelief into overtime and try not to think about it too much. I think you answered it yourself.

    Heh
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    (thank you pupil "fuck you razh" -> made me lol)

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    Re: Anatomy of shinigami

    Maybe you didn't notice, but Tsukishima died from that wound. It was probably "just" a damaged lung, but that's enough to kill quite quickly if untreated.

    With Komamura, it was explained - it's a technique. He puts his heart on the plate, gains immortality (probably for some time), but after it's over, he dies immediately, precisely because his heart is not where it should be to work.

    And Kenpachi... is Kenpachi. He never gives a sweet fuck about injuries. Souls have been shown to have crazy vitality early in the series (Ichigo vs Grand Fisher), so it's understandable that injuries like that are survivable and don't cause much trouble to Kenny.

    Any more cases where anatomy is ignored?
    Erfworld

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    Meh can't have Bleach without fan raging, makes it fun.

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    Re: Anatomy of shinigami

    Has it been said komamura will really die after the technique is over? I kinda have my doubts about that one. I guess he would need his heart back one the technique is over though.

    I do think there has to be a distinction between shinigami and humans here though. Hasn't the manga made the point that shinigami bodies are more durable than human bodies? I think that was a bit of a plot point during the fullbring arc. And perhaps the case can be made for hybrids being more even more resilient than shinigami. Tousen could speak even after having kazeshini released in his throat and mouth and that was attributed to his hollow powers. I also think this has to do a bit with the reiatsu of the user and its volume. Usually the more resilient characters have shown to be the ones with more rieatsu. Yamamoto handled being stabbed in the gut in a way which would make kenpachi jealous.

    I also had a theory a while back since we saw the bit with the shinigami being almost dead after the quincy invasion and with ulquiorra earlier. Perhaps in bleach a stab is not necessarily just a stab, the reiatsu behind it makes a difference. I am not talking about an attack obliterating you and another not doing it, I am talking about taking the exact same wound from two individuals who differ in power. Seeing kirinji's healing method it appears that reiatsu has this nasty habit of lingering in the body of the users after a wound is taken. We saw something similar with ulquiorra and maybe other arrancar too, their hybrid reiatsu lingered in the wounds preventing healing. Byakuya was about to die from the wounds taken from his own bankai too. Kirinji's healing method was ultimately about removing nasty reiatsu from the patient and them replenishing with good reiatsu so to speak. So in light of this the exact same wound taken from different people could be severely different and perhaps that would be what whats a wound tankable or not. Its a battle of reiatsu on that front too, you have to fight of the reiatsu left in the wounds with your own. Which would explain kenpachi's and yamamoto's ability to take damage. Their reiatsus would be so strong that they would be instantly capable of fighting off the reiatsu left within them hence their ability to just fight on. It would explain why kenpachi could heal from the wounds taken from fake juhabach with unohana's treatment while byakuya needed the pools to remove the reiatsu in question.

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    Re: Anatomy of shinigami

    Old man Zangetsu did hold Ichigo's stab wound back in early SS arc against Kenpachi's clean cut in his chest, this was as it seems done by sheer reatsu with Zangetsu's support.
    It seems highly likely to me, that wounds are just as deadly for Shinigami, as they are for any other human, just with the one exception, being able to hold back wounds with reatsu.
    In other words, weak Shinigami die far easier than say a more powerful Shinigami, at least that's how I picture it.
    • Nobels have children, no doubts about that, we got strong evidence from the SS arc alone with all the Rukia and her older sister business.
    • Apparently a soul without power doesn't need to eat, but power means they have to eat to restore their reatsu, perhaps this also starts making their body functioin normally, including allowing them to have children. Considering the large difference between a Noble and a powerless soul who only needs water to survive and nothing else.
    • Ulquiorra could not regenerate once his organs was damaged.

    Well that's just my take on it, I doubt Kubo doesn't have a prober reasonable system for all this, but I guess he doesn't find it important to explain it further.

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    Re: Anatomy of shinigami

    Zangetsu was able to stop the bleeding because of the quincy's blutz ability, he said so with the revelation that he was quincy powers. Shinigami do not have any innate ability to stop bleeding with reiatsu.

    Also, ulquiorra could regenerate everything but his organs. Its not that he could not regenerate once his organs were damaged.

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    Re: Anatomy of shinigami


    It says here, "He's coming! My ability to stop your wound bleeding is at it's limit!" Though considering 'the memories within his reatsu' hadn't been 'awakened' yet, I'm fairly certain this is strength based.

    In fact in ALL fights except for two (the kenpachi fight and this): Any bleeding caused by wounds stops almost immediately. Kubo uses a heavy initial burst of bleeding, or continued small bleeding (for example on limb severence) to denote serious wounds; an example is when Nnoitra got slashed by Kenpachi with his eye patch off.
    Last edited by Spleens; November 16, 2013 at 12:07 AM.

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    Re: Anatomy of shinigami

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Zangetsu was able to stop the bleeding because of the quincy's blutz ability, he said so with the revelation that he was quincy powers. Shinigami do not have any innate ability to stop bleeding with reiatsu.

    Also, ulquiorra could regenerate everything but his organs. Its not that he could not regenerate once his organs were damaged.
    That power wasn't unlocked yet at that point though, the real Juha Bach said that it was hidden very deeply in Ichigo's powers and was only unlocked because of Kirge's cage.
    That means he wouldn't be able to use blut whatsoever, however old man Zangetsu himself is a different story probably, which leaves room for at least a possibility of an extreme weak version of blut.
    But considering Ichigo's body and reastsu "core drive" apparently wasn't "unlocked", then would it be possible to use blut at all back then? Even if he had inner world old man Zangetsu with Quincy memories?

    Zangetsu said back in the SS arc against Kenpachi, that he could barely hold the wound back, it would probably be a very small matter to hold it back if it was blut, considering the damage these "human" Quincies can take.
    That's why I think holding it back with reatsu is a very high probability, I doubt it was a very weak version of blut, but who knows, we can't really know for certain.

    Ichigo needed all the reatsu he could muster to defeat Kenpachi, so it's not all that farfetched that Zangetsu barely could give Ichigo enough support, at the time, to both ensure a win and stop the wound at the same time, considering Kenpachi is a HUGE opponent.


    ~~~
    What I meant with Ulq cannot regenerate was that he could not restore himself to 100% of his body, that means including all the missing or damaged organs.
    Sure he could still regenerate arms and other missing body parts, but it was futile to even try, that's what I meant by he can't regenerate, his life was already lost, so why bother to try postpone death?
    The whole point was that he couldn't regenerate his organs in the first place, because that's what this thread is all about


    ---------- Post added at 11:40 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:38 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Spleens View Post

    It says here, "He's coming! My ability to stop your wound bleeding is at it's limit!" Though considering 'the memories within his reatsu' hadn't been 'awakened' yet, I'm fairly certain this is strength based.

    In fact in ALL fights except for two (the kenpachi fight and this): Any bleeding caused by wounds stops almost immediately. Kubo uses a heavy initial burst of bleeding, or continued small bleeding (for example on limb severence) to denote serious wounds; an example is when Nnoitra got slashed by Kenpachi with his eye patch off.
    Nice find, those are indeed very interesting cases
    Last edited by Quantized; November 16, 2013 at 06:00 AM.

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    Re: Anatomy of shinigami

    Quote Originally Posted by Quantized View Post
    That power wasn't unlocked yet at that point though, the real Juha Bach said that it was hidden very deeply in Ichigo's powers and was only unlocked because of Kirge's cage.
    That means he wouldn't be able to use blut whatsoever, however old man Zangetsu himself is a different story probably, which leaves room for at least a possibility of an extreme weak version of blut.
    But considering Ichigo's body and reastsu "core drive" apparently wasn't "unlocked", then would it be possible to use blut at all back then? Even if he had inner world old man Zangetsu with Quincy memories?

    Zangetsu said back in the SS arc against Kenpachi, that he could barely hold the wound back, it would probably be a very small matter to hold it back if it was blut, considering the damage these "human" Quincies can take.
    That's why I think holding it back with reatsu is a very high probability, I doubt it was a very weak version of blut, but who knows, we can't really know for certain.

    Ichigo needed all the reatsu he could muster to defeat Kenpachi, so it's not all that farfetched that Zangetsu barely could give Ichigo enough support, at the time, to both ensure a win and stop the wound at the same time, considering Kenpachi is a HUGE opponent.
    This isn't about probabilities or anything, this is about fact.
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-chapter-556.html

    Its a fact ichigo was saved by quincy blutz, it is outright stated.

    Cnet translation (almost the same but with a difference)
    [Side text: Memories surface. Memories of the two people inside him.]
    Ichigo: (You're right... / There were no lies. // In his words... // ...or in yours. // You used your Quincy "shadow" to help me when I needed it. // You used your Quincy "blood" to stop my blood from flowing freely. // You lent me your Quincy "power"... / ...to let me win when I wasn't strong enough.)
    Last edited by kkck; November 16, 2013 at 09:37 AM.

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    Re: Anatomy of shinigami

    The panel with that text on it, is with Ichigo getting stabbed in the neck by Juhabach; this is the first time it is shown that Ichigo is able to use blut. That's what the panel is signifying.

    I'm fairly certain it has nothing to do with Kenpachi's fight with Ichigo, I'd go so far as to waiver a guess that Kubo hadn't even thought of the concept yet. According to http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...51-page-5.html only pure blooded quincies have the innate ability for blut. Both Ichigo and Ishida are not pure blooded quincies; and would not have had the ability regardless in the first arc.
    My cheap/fast concept of a bleach character

    :

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    Re: Anatomy of shinigami

    There are two pannels there, the one on top is from the fight with kenpachi, in particular when ichigo was talking with zangetsu and he was stopping the bleeding, although to a limited extent.
    http://raw.senmanga.com/Bleach/542/

    Thats the raw, it is a little bit clearer than the scanlation.

    Ichigo is different from ishida, his powers take on a living form within him. Zangetsu to whatever limited extent he could used it to help ichigo as he did use the quincy shadow to drag ichigo into his inner world.

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    Re: Anatomy of shinigami

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    This isn't about probabilities or anything, this is about fact.
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-chapter-556.html

    Its a fact ichigo was saved by quincy blutz, it is outright stated.

    Cnet translation (almost the same but with a difference)
    [Side text: Memories surface. Memories of the two people inside him.]
    Ichigo: (You're right... / There were no lies. // In his words... // ...or in yours. // You used your Quincy "shadow" to help me when I needed it. // You used your Quincy "blood" to stop my blood from flowing freely. // You lent me your Quincy "power"... / ...to let me win when I wasn't strong enough.)
    I see, I completely forgot those panels.. I apologize for being so sure on my case back there.

    Thinking back, no wonder I forgot, it felt so fake and like a recon, so I probably rejected it out of disgust when reading it.
    The whole Zangetsu being his Quincy powers and HollowIchigo in reality being his Zanpaktou never quite sat well with me, well, sure I love the old man being a Quincy, but I wanted an awesome avatar for his Shinigami powers too, not HollowIchigo who used to only repressent his Hollow powers.
    Heck Hollow Ichigo hardly knew anything about the Zanpaktou, he was always one step ahead of Ichigo, but he still didn't know everything, old man Zangetsu was the one who knew it all and had all the information.
    Hollow Ichigo would probably not have been able to teach Ichigo bankai, if it wasn't for old man Zangetsu with Quincy origins...

    As such I feel something is way off with Ichigo, as if old man Zangetsu was faked/retcon into being of Quincy origins in the final arc.

    Can't say I can take it seriously, especially the whole thing of Ichigo's Quincy powers having been sealed to the very core of his soul, and yet old man Zangetsu saved him with the blut Quincy technique.

    It all just doesn't feel right, it smells too much of a retcon, and I'm usually not the one to call on those...

    It feels like a desperate move to create a villain that has some foreshadowing from earlier in the manga, instead of pulling a new villain out of blue air.
    But it's not really foreshadowed in that case, it's the opposite of foreshadowing, using already made story to create something based on the current story.

    It's like tipping a pyramid on its head, instead of building from down up, it feels like Kubo started building a new villain from the top down, based on all he had written already...

    As such I still feel like Ichigo's blood was originally stopped by pure reatsu, but Kubo made a retcon out of it all...

    But who knows, it's not like I can prove anything, as none of us know what went through Kubo's head through creating this new final arc.

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    Re: Anatomy of shinigami

    Dunno, to me it kinda felt like kubo actually something like this in mind from the start. I doubt kubo planned for every detail but I would think that at least quincy and shinigami powers would have been clearly defined by the time of the fight with kenpachi at least. I mean, ishida was already fighting serious enemies with advanced techniques by then, t would make sense kubo had a clear picture by then. And ultimately the explanation does fit in the manga reasonably nicely and a bit of the things we saw actually made more sense after it. Remember the time ichigo beat shirosaki for his mask? With the explanation that old man zangetsu is quincy powers the fight takes an entirely different context (at least IMO). If anything it even goes on to make it obvious (in hindsight) that old man zangetsu could only be quincy powers (specially the part where shirosaki screams "I am ZANGETSU").

    As for hollow ichigo teaching ichigo bankai.... didn't he kinda do it? Well, the bankai training was done through old man zangetsu however bankai is about beating the crap out of your zampakuto. Beating the old man meant beating shirosaki because the old man was dominant at the time. Anyways, as far as bankai went it was always shirosaki who taught ichigo, that was another point made in the manga. Ichigo did learn black GT from when shirosaki took over and he did get a first hand taste of the thing when he suppressed him.

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    Re: Anatomy of shinigami

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Dunno, to me it kinda felt like kubo actually something like this in mind from the start. I doubt kubo planned for every detail but I would think that at least quincy and shinigami powers would have been clearly defined by the time of the fight with kenpachi at least. I mean, ishida was already fighting serious enemies with advanced techniques by then, t would make sense kubo had a clear picture by then. And ultimately the explanation does fit in the manga reasonably nicely and a bit of the things we saw actually made more sense after it. Remember the time ichigo beat shirosaki for his mask? With the explanation that old man zangetsu is quincy powers the fight takes an entirely different context (at least IMO). If anything it even goes on to make it obvious (in hindsight) that old man zangetsu could only be quincy powers (specially the part where shirosaki screams "I am ZANGETSU").

    As for hollow ichigo teaching ichigo bankai.... didn't he kinda do it? Well, the bankai training was done through old man zangetsu however bankai is about beating the crap out of your zampakuto. Beating the old man meant beating shirosaki because the old man was dominant at the time. Anyways, as far as bankai went it was always shirosaki who taught ichigo, that was another point made in the manga. Ichigo did learn black GT from when shirosaki took over and he did get a first hand taste of the thing when he suppressed him.
    Indeed, I guess it's all about perspective, it's not that I disagree with your points, but I still feel a little off about all this.

    I've heard a rumor on another Bleach board somewhere I don't rermember where or it's source, but something along the line of Bleach loosing popularity, and being forced to speed up its development to end the manga in a prober closing, rather than suddenly closing it.
    If this rumor is true, then perhaps Kubo changed direction in this final arc, where Bleach was supposed to be lasting longer? Maybe another arc about Hell or the Royal dimension would have been very different?

    I won't call it more than a rumor since I can't find a solid source, but it's interesting to think about, whether it's true or not that Kubo was forced to speed Bleach up.

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    Re: Anatomy of shinigami

    Quote Originally Posted by Quantized View Post
    Indeed, I guess it's all about perspective, it's not that I disagree with your points, but I still feel a little off about all this.

    I've heard a rumor on another Bleach board somewhere I don't rermember where or it's source, but something along the line of Bleach loosing popularity, and being forced to speed up its development to end the manga in a prober closing, rather than suddenly closing it.
    If this rumor is true, then perhaps Kubo changed direction in this final arc, where Bleach was supposed to be lasting longer? Maybe another arc about Hell or the Royal dimension would have been very different?

    I won't call it more than a rumor since I can't find a solid source, but it's interesting to think about, whether it's true or not that Kubo was forced to speed Bleach up.
    Well, it doesn't seem like the manga is about to end. It has been almost 4 years since the timeskip (for us) more or less. If the manga lasts another 3 or 4 years it would have lived up to the original expectation that by the timeskip it was just about halfway done. And seeing the current developments, it really doesn't seem like the manga is in the final battle just yet. It kinda seems like this is just one of the battles that the stern riter and captains have yet to fight. The shinigami have yet to invade the quincy, uryu will likely have to be rescued, the royal palace has yet to be breached, nothing on souken's involvement with vandenreich just yet and the quincy have yet to actually tell us what their ultimate objective in regards to everything is beyond destroying the world and perhaps juhabach becoming king.

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