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Thread: Chapter 215's Nea ≠ 14th Noah Memory

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    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member kannazuki's Avatar
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    Chapter 215's Nea ≠ 14th Noah Memory

    This theory isn't my own and I am not really convinced of it as things are right now. It comes from the Tim's Tail blog. Just to be clear, the theory here is not that Nea wasn't a Noah! The theory is that the Noah memory in Allen is a separate entity from the "Nea" who just woke up in chapters 214-215. The blogger doesn't really explain how this can be (and sort of contradicts him/herself in a way), to be honest, but still, I find the theory interesting for a couple of reasons. So although I'm not convinced myself, I thought it would be fun to share it and see what people think until we have more chapters to shed light on this stuff. Specifically, what would make this theory work/not work with the main story, in your opinion?

    The main blogger's main basis for saying this appears to be a comparison of Nea's behaviour in 214-215 to other Noahs, whose memories work differently from his, as well as the 14th's brief appearances (182, 198, etc.).
    Spoiler: original Japanese text + translation show

    From ティムのしっぽ:

    As for the art above (volume on top; magazine below), attention is drawn to a change in facial expressions that the blogger finds indicate more of a sense of confusion (and less "light" in the eyes). Especially if you take it as following how he looks when he's first waking up in bed (see below). In my opinion, Allen's hair got curvier in the revised version. Its overall shape looks more like Nea's now, imo (not that that means anything on its own).

    Obviously, points refuting this theory would include that the 14th is supposed to be a special Noah, &/or that perhaps because Allen somehow volunteered himself, things are different. (I'd also thought it was significant that the 14th specifically introduces himself as "Nea" in chapter 198, but were this theory to be true, there are a lot of ways that could be explained.) Thoughts?
    Last edited by kannazuki; November 21, 2013 at 06:29 AM.

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Chapter 215's Nea ≠ 14th Noah Memory

    In chapter 198, there is the shadow which looks the same to the one that appeared in chapter 59 and chapter 131 (minor changes thanks to Hoshino's art evolution).

    Spoiler: behind him show


    I think back then, when Nea appeared in Allen's dream world and as his weird stalking shadow, he can't clearly see what Allen really looks like, he just know something like "Yeah, it's him. No mistake." It's not like we really know what Nea saw, what Allen looks like from his point of view when he used to be the stalking shadow.

    And things got even weirder when what Nea sees in mirror in Allen's body is not the Noah shadow, but Allen's reflection, unlike to Skinn.
    Last edited by non-chan; November 21, 2013 at 06:56 AM. Reason: Type mistake

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    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member kannazuki's Avatar
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    Re: Chapter 215's Nea ≠ 14th Noah Memory

    Quote Originally Posted by non-chan View Post
    In chapter 198, there is the shadow which looks the same to the one that appeared in chapter 59 and chapter 131 (minor changes thanks to Hoshino's art evoluton).

    Spoiler: behind him show
    Ooh thanks for the image. That reminds me there's some interesting language used by that shadow in 131 that might be worth talking about here... because it doesn't sound like the 14th is the one speaking when you read what the shadow says in Japanese. It's more like *past* Allen is talking to his current self somehow whoever the shadow is, it's talking to past!Allen rather than present Allen. Hoshino has been very consistent with how her major characters speak, too. (I discovered around the same time that in Allen's memory of Mana ages ago while he was knocked out at Krory's castle, he spoke using not-so-polite Japanese, and that was WAY before there was any hint Allen was ever going to stop using so much polite Japanese all the time.)

    Quote Quote:
    I think back then, when Nea appeared in Allen's dream world and as his weird stalking shadow, he can't clearly see what Allen really looks like, he just know something like "Yeah, it's him. No mistake." It's not like we really know what Nea saw, what Allen looks like from his point of view when he used to be the stalking shadow.
    Maybe that could be have been the case while he was a shadow (if that was even him), but in 189 he looks *right into the Earl's eyes.* He does the same with an akuma in 182, using it to send a message to the Earl in advance of that meeting. I think in 184, he even woke up in Allen's body and started walking somewhere before Lenalee stopped him and he reverted to being Allen again.

    Quote Quote:
    And things got even weirder when what Nea sees in mirror in Allen's body is not the Noah shadow, but Allen's reflection, unlike to Skinn.
    That's an interesting point. So you think he expected to see a shadow in the mirror, like Skinn, Tyki (sort of), and even Allen himself? That makes a lot of sense actually. Until now I'd just assumed he expected to have Noah clan features, but both make sense. (And the blogger's theory only works here if you assume that between waking up and presumably the moment he tries to kill Johnny, the consciousness controlling Allen's body instantly swapped from "Nea" to the 14th.
    Last edited by kannazuki; November 22, 2013 at 10:17 AM.

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    Re: Chapter 215's Nea ≠ 14th Noah Memory

    Quote Originally Posted by kannazuki View Post
    That's an interesting point. So you think he expected to see a shadow in the mirror, like Skinn, Tyki (sort of), and even Allen himself? That makes a lot of sense actually. Until now I'd just assumed he expected to have Noah clan features, but both make sense. (And the blogger's theory only works here if you assume that between waking up and presumably the moment he tries to kill Johnny, the consciousness controlling Allen's body instantly swapped from "Nea" to the 14th.
    I don't know if he expected to see Noah shadow in the mirror or not, but I was suprised that he saw Allen's reflection.

    To me, Nea seems to be someone who checks around him first before checks himself until he really has time (my guess that this is the results of having the rest of his life of running away).

    For what happened in chapter 215, I think it was Nea all the time until Kanda asked him if he was the 14th or not. Hoshino tried a lot to described the aura around him with her art there.

    Quote Quote:
    That reminds me there's some interesting language used by that shadow in 131 that might be worth talking about here... because it doesn't sound like the 14th is the one speaking when you read what the shadow says in Japanese. It's more like *past* Allen is talking to his current self somehow. Hoshino has been very consistent with how her major characters speak, too. (I discovered around the same time that in Allen's memory of Mana ages ago while he was knocked out at Krory's castle, he spoke using not-so-polite Japanese, and that was WAY before there was any hint Allen was ever going to stop using so much polite Japanese all the time.)
    Oh my god, my brain can't take this. It's not because I know nothing about Japanese, but the more I think of it, the more my head hurts. It's getting too confusing here if that shadow was actually past!Allen

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    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member kannazuki's Avatar
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    Re: Chapter 215's Nea ≠ 14th Noah Memory

    You saw the post before, silly. Here, I'll quote myself from the "Musician's Song" thread. You can read the Japanese (again) for yourself and tell me what you think.

    Spoiler:  edited - I suggest you check the version below instead of this one show
    Last edited by kannazuki; November 22, 2013 at 10:14 AM. Reason: added spoiler

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    Re: Chapter 215's Nea ≠ 14th Noah Memory

    Quote Originally Posted by kannazuki View Post
    Ooh thanks for the image. That reminds me there's some interesting language used by that shadow in 131 that might be worth talking about here... because it doesn't sound like the 14th is the one speaking when you read what the shadow says in Japanese. It's more like *past* Allen is talking to his current self somehow. Hoshino has been very consistent with how her major characters speak, too. (I discovered around the same time that in Allen's memory of Mana ages ago while he was knocked out at Krory's castle, he spoke using not-so-polite Japanese, and that was WAY before there was any hint Allen was ever going to stop using so much polite Japanese all the time.)
    after reading this part of your theory it made me think that maybe that shadow is Mana.it may be stupid but that shadow never told Allen that he is 14th.i don't have have a lot of things to back up my theory but in chapter 132 the shadow told Allen that "the music score belongs to Allen" maybe because the music score was wrote in the form of alphabets that were created by himself(Mana) and Allen and when Allen started to play the song the scare on the left side of his face started change(because of the skull that came out of Allen's left eye i always think that maybe a part of Mana(soul or dark matter) exists in Allen's body.).i know that Mana used to talk politely but maybe he started to talk like that after he lost his mind and i know that we see that shadow behind Nea in chapter 198 but it might be just Allen thinking that he is that shadow.(sorry for any grammar mistake)

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    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member kannazuki's Avatar
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    Re: Chapter 215's Nea ≠ 14th Noah Memory

    @mahsanaru: That's entirely possible if in fact the Shadow is not the 14th himself, except I have trouble believing Mana would refer to himself using "Ore" like the shadow does. I'll go check on that pronoun soon...

    @everyone: Here's a version with more notes below and I've changed "the 14th" above the shadow's dialogue to "Shadow." Also, a correction of what I said above: It's not that it's like Allen is speaking to himself-- I mixed that up. It's more like Allen is *remembering* someone else speaking to him. Tentatively, I'd say the one he's remembering is the 14th speaking to him (due to the use of katakana and referring to itself with "ore" like the 14th in chapter 198), and that the memory in question belongs to past!Allen who refers to himself with "watashi," and not "boku" like present Allen does (or the 14th's ore).

    Spoiler: Shadow's Dialogue Revisited show
    Last edited by kannazuki; February 27, 2014 at 06:47 PM. Reason: added ? to "I (have?) the player's abilities" so ppl won't miss that "have" is *implied*

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    Re: Chapter 215's Nea ≠ 14th Noah Memory

    Thanks, kannazuki . I kinda get it now. I thought you were talking about chapter 59 and I have terrible memory. I have yet connected the dots though.
    I remember that quotation mark using somewhere else. I'm trying to dig in the old chapter...
    In my local version, it says "You two (Allen & Timcanpy) have the player's abilities". I guess it's time to stop believing it...

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    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Mango-chan's Avatar
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    Re: Chapter 215's Nea ≠ 14th Noah Memory

    This thread has inspired me to think of the most confusing idea ever.

    Allen and Nea have their own individual identities as the 14th noah, which is why the more recent appearances of Nea/14th don't recall all the weird crap they've done in the manga in the past. (aka being an insane baller)

    *Past+Current Allen/14th is the kind of guy who would like to watch the world burn for the lulz because their brain has been scrambled beyond repair by both the Heart and pact with Nea. He probably has either no memories of the past or an amazing jumbled up memory collage of the Earl/Noahs and Heart/Exorcists being dicks that aren't worthy of his future utopian moonbase kingdom (before anyone hates me here, Hoshino has shown moonbases in both DGM and Continue). He also may or may not be a thing that fades away with Allen as Nea awakens.
    *Nea/14th is a carbon copy of Nea from 45 years ago and clearly remembers the people and events from back then.
    Last edited by Mango-chan; November 28, 2013 at 12:50 AM.

    Auto-correct is a double edged sword.

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    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity ca12nag3's Avatar
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    Re: Chapter 215's Nea ≠ 14th Noah Memory

    The theory is really simple. Nea and Allen were alive both at the same time, when Nea was about to die Allen offered himself as a new vessel for Nea as a whole. That means Nea both noah and host. We see a young Nea and Mana in flashbacks, suggesting they were both living a normal typ of life. I dont think Nea = the 14th memory but its host. Nea had a mission.

    Also as seen before the noah does not alter the hosts memories or makes the host disapear. But rather fuses the 2. And all indication points to it that Allen would disappear once Nea takes over. Making more sense if Nea isnt the noah but the host of the previous.

    Last but not least what was said before is false in Allen-Nea case. That the noah forgets its previous hosts memories. Nea clearly remembers being friends with Allen, and still remembers his mission. And Tim. Now you can say the noah remembers. But then its remembering the previous hosts as well? That would be contradicting. Obviously we see a sharing between Allen and the noah inside him regarding past memories.

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    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member kannazuki's Avatar
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    Re: Chapter 215's Nea ≠ 14th Noah Memory

    Quote Originally Posted by non-chan View Post
    Thanks, kannazuki . I kinda get it now. I thought you were talking about chapter 59 and I have terrible memory. I have yet connected the dots though.
    I remember that quotation mark using somewhere else. I'm trying to dig in the old chapter...
    In my local version, it says "You two (Allen & Timcanpy) have the player's abilities". I guess it's time to stop believing it...
    Ohhhhh okay, no worries. Well, at least I could put the raw text up so you can draw your own conclusions from it. ^_^

    Quote Originally Posted by Mango-chan View Post
    This thread has inspired me to think of the most confusing idea ever.

    Allen and Nea have their own individual identities as the 14th noah, which is why the more recent appearances of Nea/14th don't recall all the weird crap they've done in the manga in the past. (aka being an insane baller)
    I'm with you so far...

    Quote Quote:
    *Past+Current Allen/14th is the kind of guy who would like to watch the world burn for the lulz because their brain has been scrambled beyond repair by both the Heart and pact with Nea. He probably has either no memories of the past or an amazing jumbled up memory collage of the Earl/Noahs and Heart/Exorcists being dicks that aren't worthy of his future utopian moonbase kingdom (before anyone hates me here, Hoshino has shown moonbases in both DGM and Continue). He also may or may not be a thing that fades away with Allen as Nea awakens.
    *Nea/14th is a carbon copy of Nea from 45 years ago and clearly remembers the people and events from back then.
    Well Allen's memory is messed up for sure no matter what the cause (though I do think emotional trauma plays a large role in this). Any thoughts on the Nea/14th then?

    I remember "Continue" version, but when was a "moon base" seen in DGM? (I mean the moon itself is everywhere, but I'm missing the -base part?) xD

    Quote Originally Posted by ca12nag3 View Post
    The theory is really simple. Nea and Allen were alive both at the same time, when Nea was about to die Allen offered himself as a new vessel for Nea as a whole. That means Nea both noah and host. We see a young Nea and Mana in flashbacks, suggesting they were both living a normal typ of life. I dont think Nea = the 14th memory but its host. Nea had a mission.
    That's an interesting viewpoint. It would explain some things, if so. Still, there are problems as you mention below.

    Quote Quote:
    Also as seen before the noah does not alter the hosts memories or makes the host disapear. But rather fuses the 2. And all indication points to it that Allen would disappear once Nea takes over. Making more sense if Nea isnt the noah but the host of the previous.
    I think what the original writer of this theory said about this is true: the Noah remembers everything that happened in its host's life. If we go by what just came out as part of Komui's discussion room in volume 24, Wisely says: 「ジョイドは・・・ティッキーはノアの時は貴族なんじゃぞぃ。それに我らの肉体はノアに覚醒するとき、細胞から生まれ変わっておるから人間の常識からはちと外れておる。」 verduister translated that line here as "Joido… Tyki is a noble when he's a Noah. Besides, when our bodies reawaken as Noahs, we are reborn down to our cells so we go a little beyond human norms." At first I took what I read there to mean that the host is wiped out, but I guess if the Noah keeps the memories, then that wouldn't necessarily be true. As things stand, we just don't know what happens to the host's consciousness. The way the Nea/14th spoke in chapter 215 though, it didn't sound like there'd be any of the original host's consciousness left...?

    Quote Quote:
    Last but not least what was said before is false in Allen-Nea case. That the noah forgets its previous hosts memories. Nea clearly remembers being friends with Allen, and still remembers his mission. And Tim. Now you can say the noah remembers. But then its remembering the previous hosts as well? That would be contradicting. Obviously we see a sharing between Allen and the noah inside him regarding past memories.
    The point here though is that in his earlier appearances (like chapters 198 and 189 in particular), the 14th seems to know exactly what is going on in the present moment. He just pops in and responds to the current circumstances like he's been there all along. Then we have the "14th" of chapter 214-215, who is completely different. So if like Mango-chan says there are two different 14ths in Allen (it's kinda complicated to me but just roll with it for a second), then you have a 14th with memories of *recent* history (Allen/14th - who would be the one in chapters 189 and 198) and another 14th with only memories from when Nea was alive (Nea/14th). I suppose you can take that in combination with OR in contradiction to the idea that the Nea who woke up in chapter 215 is *just Nea*. I keep thinking that might be the case myself, but then what reason would non-14th Nea have to try to kill Johnny? Unless Nea himself never fully became a Noah and was bouncing back and forth like Allen sort of has been, and then that jumbled up multiple-identity version is what got stored in Allen or something? Oh my, well that's the most complicated version yet... ._.
    Last edited by kannazuki; January 01, 2014 at 05:34 PM. Reason: clarification

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    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity ca12nag3's Avatar
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    Re: Chapter 215's Nea ≠ 14th Noah Memory

    I got all the volumes on my shelf and read them at least 5 times over thats without grabbing 1 to reread some quotation stuff. Clearly the noah we see in the piano room is not nea. By a long shot its not nea. Nea is a more confident psychologically unstable guy. The 14th in the pianoroom in the mirrors is not like that hes more serene and melancholic.

    Some confirms on this?

    -Well Skin sees his noah in the mirror smiling with a grin at him. His mirror noah. As in host vs inner noah
    -Then there is Tyki who after being stabbed by Allen sees his noah in the mirror. Another thing is that when he transformed his inner noah took control.

    But who is this inner noah? This inner noah is the one that awakens within them yes, and kinda fuses with them being a combined being. Nea we see him as a kid, and then we see him laying on the floor against a wall bleeding out while Allen offers him to take him inside him. Nea thus still lives on inside Allen. He should be dead, and his noah passed on to another host. But that didnt happen.
    I just dont see Nea as the 14th noah memories because the simple fact that his persona lived before. And basically died that day.

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    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member JDSS's Avatar
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    Re: Chapter 215's Nea ≠ 14th Noah Memory

    edited

    Nea and the 14th is the same
    Last edited by JDSS; June 09, 2014 at 09:56 AM.

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    Re: Chapter 215's Nea ≠ 14th Noah Memory

    I'll be honest, it took some time to follow what the implications this theory had, but basically I don't get one part of this theory (to be accurate I can't seem to agree with this specific part:/ )...

    Noah usually reincarnate as memories right? At random, into another person, tending towards people with the most significant Noah traits. What has happened between Neah and Allen is not really the case right?

    Past Allen seems to have specifically asked Neah to transplant his memories to him, by saying that he will protect them right? Regardless of how much Noah traits Allen may have ever had, he was singled out to host Neah's memories. "I will protect your memories from the others...". It would make sense if by memories past Allen and Nea were not talking about Noah gene/memories per say, but his very soul or being. Isn't that different from being a person who has had "Noah memories" transplanted into them? Because then by definition that would be pretty unfeasible given that Allen has Innocence right :/

    I for now mostly still think that Allen just hosts Nea inside him. And the Noah memories you mention remain within Nea. I find it hard to conceive (for now of course...forgive me if I am a little slow on this uptake ) that Nea and the 14th memories were both brought into Allen's body as separate entities :/

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    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member kannazuki's Avatar
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    Re: Chapter 215's Nea ≠ 14th Noah Memory

    ca12nag3 also said this, and it seems that's about where I'm at too. (Thanks to discussion of this theory, which I found interesting but pointed out from the start might be a stretch.) So basically, if we're right, when everyone in the story talks about Allen awakening as the Fourteenth, they don't realize that actually it's Nea who's taking over Allen's body, and Nea is still the Fourteenth.

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