Not a member? Register now!
Announcements
Manga returns! Catch up with the details. Enjoy downloading, translating, and scanlating manga HERE legally!
Like us on Facebook, follow us on Twitter! Celebrate another year with MH and read our yearbook.
Manga News: Check out this week's new manga (7/21/14 - 7/27/14).
Forum News: Visit new sections for Nisekoi and Kingdom!
Translations: Gintama 503 by kewl0210 , One Piece 753 by cnet128 , Bleach 589 (2)
New Reply
Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 1 2 3
Results 31 to 39 of 39

Thread: Nanatsu no Taizai 57 Discussion / 58 Predictions

  1. #31
    Intl Translator 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity ukimix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Country
    Colombia
    Posts
    3,059
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Nanatsu no Taizai 57 Discussion / 58 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    The holy war is what the story is altogether about however that does not fix meliodas' limitations as a main character. If anything its the opposite, meliodas as a god among ants who needs to cut the crap kinda ruins an otherwise fantastic plot. Kongo bancho had an interesting premise too (friendship, conquest and whatnot) however having an implausibly flawless main character gets in the way. Its not just about strength. That is a huge factor but the problem goes well beyond that. Meliodas is stuck in terms of growth not only in strength but also in terms of personal development. Meliodas is perhaps already at worst almost as wise and intelligent and knowledgeable as he is ever going to need to be. Even now the most we can expect is for the manga to show us how meliodas came to be as he is rather than showing us actual growth in current events.

    But... is there any doubt that meliodas is a good guy? Its a good point, characters in the manga could perceive meliodas as a potential enemy (I hadn't really thought about that) however from the reader's perspective we know there is no grey area or conflict within meliodas in that particular regard. Even if the manga is to deal in that sort of thing too much it would probably end up being all about meliodas convincing everyone that he is a merciful god and not pointlessly cruel demon or something.

    Don't get me wrong, the manga has plenty of interesting plot points yet to resolve (what led to danafor's fate, who is liz, helbram's plans, the demon clan, ban actually bringing back king's sister, what exactly happened with the great holy knight, how long until the reactors transform into demons themselves) however none of them actually concerns meliodas' growth in terms of personal development or strength. I also doubt meliodas has an "evil" condition. From what we saw its not that he has an actually evil personality, meliodas simply looses control and his seemingly demonic form starts fighting everyone he meets. Its just instinct, not quite the same as an actual evil with a personality and goals of its own.
    If Meliodas ends being a god among ants, then I'd agree the story is rather simple and uninteresting. But, to put it simply, the fact that he has been holding back (which just has been hinted) wouldn't have to mean that he's a god among ants nor that he's flawless in any other levels or fronts. Up to now, those are just suppositions. But I hope that is not what is going to happen. For instance, that we could see how even when Mel show his full power with out restrain himself he will have major difficulties fighting other characters of the story.

    Akira is kind of a parody of some shounen cliches. As gnut suggested, Mel could be similar to kid Goku who transformed into the giant gorilla didn't distinguish between good and bad. I agree this is not pure evil, but at least it could be pure dangerous for everyone, even the good guys (not ladies, since Mel demon mode seems to distinguish between men and attractive women). But I don't see the parody side nowhere on Nanatsu. Then my guess it's the author is doing something different and he's interesting in developing different characters than those he developed in Kongou Banchou. I mean, if you create a first parody of X, likely when you later create a second 'serious' story, you don't want to create something similar to X. In that other sense, Akira, the parody character, could be a good precedent to Meliodas.
    Last edited by ukimix; December 03, 2013 at 01:42 AM.

  2. #32
    MH Senpai 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Hamy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Sátántangó
    Country
    Hong Kong
    Posts
    1,553
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Nanatsu no Taizai 57 Discussion / 58 Predictions

    My quibble about you guys establishing the strength of X in relative comparison to Y is that I don't feel Nanatsu no Taiza is about such technical details. None of the sins have shown any particular inclination or interest towards growth, they are all equally gods among ants, each member have been equally careless or held back in their ability - due to collateral damage or what not.

    I think a good case in point here is when Geera has her first skirmish against the sins in the capital of the dead, she may have been beating them but the 3 sins took their "defeat" akin to being a joke (Diane acting dramatic while the other two being impressed a bit). I think the fact that we have Ban a character who is immortal already says a lot about the lack of attempting to establish any logical power level as there is no room to necessarily outclass the sins, Ban knows he can't die so he's about as careless and arrogant as you can get and to a degree he just relishes in the pain so that victory is cheap. Which brings me to another point in that none of the sins take any skirmishes seriously aside from their own comrades Ban again is a good indicator here in his match against Melodias in the tournament as well him practically running away and remembering to rescue Elizabeth before Dianne unleashes her attack.

    Only the sins can match each other more or less. I am sure we can state more instances but the fact is power levels or perfection has shown very little relevance in the plot so far as each Sin is more or less the ideal, only King has shown cases of being outclassed altogether but considering that he is being treated as a joke character hardly matters in the overall reputation of the 7 deadly sins. In retrospect it is because each sin is so strong that they gravitate towards one another, as it is what makes them such outcasts that they find familiarity amongst themselves.

    If anything this perfection or lack of real growth, or any interest in it, is what befits the manga as that is what the sins have been made to represent as they are legends among everyone and the ideal model when the knights consider strength, and frankly they have lived up to it. The members have more or less peaked, and rather than being interested in becoming stronger they have more interest in running a normal life (as we've seen from the flash backs or anecdotes of the past). It is only befitting that the leader of such legends should stand as a god among ants. Only someone far stronger than the rest of the sins could have found it in himself to accept the members without fear of how strong or dangerous said comrade could be. If you find this boring then the manga just is not for you because you're just looking for something that is not there, I think the fact that we see DBZ-esque fights should have been a clear indication of what logic to expect. Now you can argue it is a weakness of the manga but I personally see this as a strength as it is simplicity done right.

    That being said... I think one clear anomaly has been missed with regard to the discussion so far and that is Elizabeth. She is just as equally as much a main character as Melodias and all growth or potential I feel lies with her, not the sins. More interestingly, if Melodias could accept the sins without fear because of his sheer power Elizabeth is just as equally accepting with her own character. I feel it is being missed out how Elizabeth and her role needs to be given more attention in these discussions because the way in which she wins over the sins and becomes part of their family more or less the heart of development in this manga, in both the literal and figurative sense.

    Edit:
    Quote Quote:
    Meliodas is perhaps already at worst almost as wise and intelligent and knowledgeable as he is ever going to need to be.
    This pretty much applies to all the sins though, just like growth in strength none of them need to be any smarter or knowledgeable to accomplish their task of uncovering the past and helping Elizabeth. Not as if their opponents are outwitting them in any manner, or using it as leverage against them since the sins go beyond expectations. Again I look at Elizabeth because all these conventional expectations you have kkck is not in the domain of the sins but Elizabeth, who is rife with personal development be it physically, mentally, or emotionally. So I really do not think expecting these things out of the sins is the right way to go about.
    Last edited by Hamy; December 03, 2013 at 12:45 AM.

  3. #33
    Intl Translator 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity ukimix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Country
    Colombia
    Posts
    3,059
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Nanatsu no Taizai 57 Discussion / 58 Predictions

    I agree the power levels are not that much important in this story. The plot is the most important thing here, and with a good plot, even a god among ants could provide enjoyable stories. I think we should not take Cain's description of how powerful is Meliodas as the most important thing of the story. Now, I think the author doesn't pay that much attention to the consistency in regards to the power levels. If Ban took his first defeat against Geera as a joke, he was clearly defeated in his second fight against Jerico; who was beaten by King, who was beaten by Helbram who would have been beaten by Meliodas full demon version; but, coming back to Ban again he beat a living truly Demon back in the forest, and we even aren't sure if he had his treasure when he fought that Demon. There's no possibly way to see consistency on that list of victories and defeats.

    Now, I like the idea that Cain's description, together with that scene in which Meliodas thinks that he will have to be serious in using his powers, show clearly that he's holding back his real power. That's an enjoyable element of the story among other, and I want to see how much powerful he is. Being the power level not an essential of the story, very likely we will see that power in a really good figth.

    ---------- Post added at 09:38 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:02 AM ----------

    EDIT: The seven sins were created after the fight between Ban and the demon in the Fairy forest. Then he didn't have his treasure in that battle. Even worst for the consistency of the scale of powers.
    Last edited by ukimix; December 03, 2013 at 02:07 AM.

  4. #34
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    wherever cookies can't get to me...(as if such a place existed...)
    Country
    Galactic Empire
    Posts
    18,378
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Nanatsu no Taizai 57 Discussion / 58 Predictions

    Well, from what we have seen so far I would argue the only ones that have actually held their strength back are meliodas and king. Meliodas because the plot has already made that pretty clear and king because even with all his fights he has yet to actually use his special ability. We have seen several forms of his sacred treasure however his sacred treasure is supposed to maximize the strength of his disaster ability. King was perfectly willing to kill gaera and jericho which makes it kinda weird that he would hold his ability back.

    Then we have ban, diane and recently gowther. Ban at least has had the decency of using all of the strength he has available without a weapon. His immortality is a murky area however we have seen him getting his ass legitimately handed to him. Diane is roughly in the same boat although her sacred treasure turned out to be a mountain throwing monstrosity. Now, it is true that the sins are in general absurdly strong but safe for meliodas that does not mean it is impossible to stand up against them. There are plenty of people left in the holy knights that could actually pose a threat IMO. Certainly the sins far exceed the average holy knights but that is not to say the stronger holy knights will be irrelevant to them. There is also the chance that one of the sins actually even betrayed them...

    Anyways, I would argue the main issue here is that based on how meliodas has been built up there shouldn't be a reason for him having trouble beating anyone provided he used his full power. On the other hand based on what we know it wouldn't be that weird that there are a select group of holy knights that can actually fight evenly with the full might of the other sins. Even now the dawn roar seem to actually be adequate enemies (although meliodas with his blaze enchantment would have killed the demon on his own while the dawn roar would have had at least one of their members killed).

  5. #35
    MH Senpai 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Hamy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Sátántangó
    Country
    Hong Kong
    Posts
    1,553
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Nanatsu no Taizai 57 Discussion / 58 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Then we have ban, diane and recently gowther. Ban at least has had the decency of using all of the strength he has available without a weapon. His immortality is a murky area however we have seen him getting his ass legitimately handed to him. Diane is roughly in the same boat although her sacred treasure turned out to be a mountain throwing monstrosity. Now, it is true that the sins are in general absurdly strong but safe for meliodas that does not mean it is impossible to stand up against them. There are plenty of people left in the holy knights that could actually pose a threat IMO. Certainly the sins far exceed the average holy knights but that is not to say the stronger holy knights will be irrelevant to them. There is also the chance that one of the sins actually even betrayed them...
    I'm not sure how you would not consider Ban "serious" when for most part he has never actually used snatch on his opponents to the same degree he does so with Melodias. He's a masochist and frankly we know he just relishes in the pain, he has very little inclination for defense. Again the only time I would argue has taken anything seriously is when it comes to Melodias, the rest he simply accepts just as his imprisonment.

    Diane on the other hand is no different when for most part she tries to act out as this sort damsel in distress, e.g. fight with Geera, or flirting around as she does with Hauser. Even before the revelation of her Gideon's capacity Diane has hardly taken things too seriously and focuses for most part on flirting with Melodias, or apparently any male opponent. Gowther is just too early to call, but given the narration he did he doesn't seem any less insane from comrades.

    The sins are all at their peak, and rightly so, that the only thing we see are them getting back into the groove of fighting or better yet finding some sort of motivation to dedicate themselves too - and Elizabeth is quickly proving to be that source as she befriends them.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Anyways, I would argue the main issue here is that based on how meliodas has been built up there shouldn't be a reason for him having trouble beating anyone provided he used his full power. On the other hand based on what we know it wouldn't be that weird that there are a select group of holy knights that can actually fight evenly with the full might of the other sins. Even now the dawn roar seem to actually be adequate enemies (although meliodas with his blaze enchantment would have killed the demon on his own while the dawn roar would have had at least one of their members killed).
    That is just it... Melodias has not particularly focused or cared for beating any of his opponents. He simply defends himself, and adequately so with full counter. So it should be of little mystery as to why he has never "beaten" his opponents in the manner you think he should be capable of when he's never bothered to do so. Does this actually reveal any form of power level or hierarchy? I'd argue no because nothing is being established when Melodias really has no inclination to battle whatsoever, be it due to kindness or what have you. Adding to that the fact is Melodias is supposed to be an enigma at this point so I find no qualm with him going back and forth in the power levels to be odd when that is what he is portrayed as, unpredictable.
    Last edited by Hamy; December 03, 2013 at 12:57 PM.

  6. #36
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    wherever cookies can't get to me...(as if such a place existed...)
    Country
    Galactic Empire
    Posts
    18,378
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Nanatsu no Taizai 57 Discussion / 58 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamy View Post
    I'm not sure how you would not consider Ban "serious" when for most part he has never actually used snatch on his opponents to the same degree he does so with Melodias. He's a masochist and frankly we know he just relishes in the pain, he has very little inclination for defense. Again the only time I would argue has taken anything seriously is when it comes to Melodias, the rest he simply accepts just as his imprisonment.

    Diane on the other hand is no different when for most part she tries to act out as this sort damsel in distress, e.g. fight with Geera, or flirting around as she does with Hauser. Even before the revelation of her Gideon's capacity Diane has hardly taken things too seriously and focuses for most part on flirting with Melodias, or apparently any male opponent. Gowther is just too early to call, but given the narration he did he doesn't seem any less insane from comrades.

    The sins are all at their peak, and rightly so, that the only thing we see are them getting back into the groove of fighting or better yet finding some sort of motivation to dedicate themselves too - and Elizabeth is quickly proving to be that source as she befriends them.



    That is just it... Melodias has not particularly focused or cared for beating any of his opponents. He simply defends himself, and adequately so with full counter. So it should be of little mystery as to why he has never "beaten" his opponents in the manner you think he should be capable of when he's never bothered to do so. Does this actually reveal any form of power level or hierarchy? I'd argue no because nothing is being established when Melodias really has no inclination to battle whatsoever, be it due to kindness or what have you. Adding to that the fact is Melodias is supposed to be an enigma at this point so I find no qualm with him going back and forth in the power levels to be odd when that is what he is portrayed as, unpredictable.
    The difference between ban and meliodas is that ban has not really even had a chance to hold anything back. Ban has had few fights however the issue with him is that he got instantly and unquestionably fodderized by gaera and jerico due to not having a weapon (by no means he just accepted the beating nor was he only serious against meliodas). Ban is not a character that has qualms about killing his enemy for that matter either (he even went against meliodas' orders this chapter). He was simply taken out before he even had a chance to use his ability. In turn things are slightly different with meliodas. Aside from his full counter he has plenty of other abilities which he has not even bothered to use against his enemies so far even when they would have been useful. Even now he could have finished the demon with his enchanment thingy when normally it would have cost the life of at least one member of the dawn roar.

    Diane loves the damsel in distress thing but not once has she held back in a fight from what I recall. Before she had her weapon she was in the same boat as ban, she simply couldn't do anything against the reactors.

  7. #37
    MH Senpai 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Hamy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Sátántangó
    Country
    Hong Kong
    Posts
    1,553
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Nanatsu no Taizai 57 Discussion / 58 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    The difference between ban and meliodas is that ban has not really even had a chance to hold anything back. Ban has had few fights however the issue with him is that he got instantly and unquestionably fodderized by gaera and jerico due to not having a weapon (by no means he just accepted the beating nor was he only serious against meliodas). Ban is not a character that has qualms about killing his enemy for that matter either (he even went against meliodas' orders this chapter). He was simply taken out before he even had a chance to use his ability. In turn things are slightly different with meliodas. Aside from his full counter he has plenty of other abilities which he has not even bothered to use against his enemies so far even when they would have been useful. Even now he could have finished the demon with his enchanment thingy when normally it would have cost the life of at least one member of the dawn roar.

    Diane loves the damsel in distress thing but not once has she held back in a fight from what I recall. Before she had her weapon she was in the same boat as ban, she simply couldn't do anything against the reactors.
    I don't think Ban was necessarily incapable of reacting, or better yet incapable of fighting back as we saw with the initial fight with Geera. Much like Melodias and even Diane at that time they all simply did not particularly expect Geera to be of some caliber, given what they were up against previously, to the point that they let her dictate the pace of battle. Which is the same with Diane. Neither Ban nor Diane have ever particularly managed to dictate the pace of battle so far but that doesn't mean that the battle was lost or in any form concluded given that before any counterattacks could occur one event or another would transpire leaving things unsettled, e.g. King joining into the fray.

    I think you have certainly down rated them to the degree that you feel them unable to properly fight against the reactors when they have not had a proper match so to speak. The sins are strong but certainly are vulnerable to being surprised but that doesn't necessarily mean they have been weak.

    Also I'm not sure why you bring up the fight with Jericho given that Ban was absolutely thrashed by his match with Melodias, so he was clearly recovering that I'm not sure I'd ever use that as a reference to how an actual match would play out. However, one thing you fail to consider is the retrospect in how we begin to see the abilities of the sins play out, case of Diane hardening her body for defense or Ban stealing vitality or strength itself, that I do think they have more or less held back because of how advantageous these abilities would have been in their previous skirmishes. We see they have the tools to victory they just clearly do not use it all too often, because again victory seems to be the last thing on their mind.
    Last edited by Hamy; December 03, 2013 at 03:15 PM.

  8. #38
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    wherever cookies can't get to me...(as if such a place existed...)
    Country
    Galactic Empire
    Posts
    18,378
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Nanatsu no Taizai 57 Discussion / 58 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamy View Post
    I don't think Ban was necessarily incapable of reacting, or better yet incapable of fighting back as we saw with the initial fight with Geera. Much like Melodias and even Diane at that time they all simply did not particularly expect Geera to be of some caliber, given what they were up against previously, to the point that they let her dictate the pace of battle. Which is the same with Diane. Neither Ban nor Diane have ever particularly managed to dictate the pace of battle so far but that doesn't mean that the battle was lost or in any form concluded given that before any counterattacks could occur one event or another would transpire leaving things unsettled, e.g. King joining into the fray.

    I think you have certainly down rated them to the degree that you feel them unable to properly fight against the reactors when they have not had a proper match so to speak. The sins are strong but certainly are vulnerable to being surprised but that doesn't necessarily mean they have been weak.

    Also I'm not sure why you bring up the fight with Jericho given that Ban was absolutely thrashed by his match with Melodias, so he was clearly recovering that I'm not sure I'd ever use that as a reference to how an actual match would play out. However, one thing you fail to consider is the retrospect in how we begin to see the abilities of the sins play out, case of Diane hardening her body for defense or Ban stealing vitality or strength itself, that I do think they have more or less held back because of how advantageous these abilities would have been in their previous skirmishes.
    It was still 3 on one though. I don't see why they would fail to be able to dictate the pace of the battle if they actually had the strength for it. The issue here is the decisive difference in strength due to them not having weapons. Even king wondered why they had trouble with her and the answer was the lack of weapons. Only meliodas had tricks that could have turned the battle and did not use them.

    But the sins have not been surprised by the reactors. And even then a surprise works only once, it won't suddenly have a long term weakening effect during the battle. Diane and ban wee already past the surprise stage by the time they were getting their asses handed to them by gaera. And ban was hardly surprised against jerico, he simply could not defend himself during the fight.

    The trashing ban got from meliodas was hardly relevant by then. As far as we saw he had already healed himself by the time he started fighting. The entire point of his immortality is that he recovers quickly. By the time he fought he was already out and about moving, I doubt the earlier beating influenced the outcome of the fight.

    But there is no reason for them to hold out abilities. The only instances in which it would make sense for them hold them back would be outside the tournament however those abilities were used during the tournament. It makes far more sense that they didn't get a chance to use them rather than them holding back for some reason. Neither ban or diane have qualms about killing people who are out to get them so far, only meliodas seems to have that limitation. If anything I would argue that ban and diane got to use their abiltiies during the tournament simply because the difference in strength against their enemies wasn't so large that they would be defeated without having a chance to even try.

  9. #39
    MH Senpai 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Hamy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Sátántangó
    Country
    Hong Kong
    Posts
    1,553
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Nanatsu no Taizai 57 Discussion / 58 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    It was still 3 on one though. I don't see why they would fail to be able to dictate the pace of the battle if they actually had the strength for it. The issue here is the decisive difference in strength due to them not having weapons. Even king wondered why they had trouble with her and the answer was the lack of weapons. Only meliodas had tricks that could have turned the battle and did not use them.

    But the sins have not been surprised by the reactors. And even then a surprise works only once, it won't suddenly have a long term weakening effect during the battle. Diane and ban wee already past the surprise stage by the time they were getting their asses handed to them by gaera. And ban was hardly surprised against jerico, he simply could not defend himself during the fight.

    The trashing ban got from meliodas was hardly relevant by then. As far as we saw he had already healed himself by the time he started fighting. The entire point of his immortality is that he recovers quickly. By the time he fought he was already out and about moving, I doubt the earlier beating influenced the outcome of the fight.

    But there is no reason for them to hold out abilities. The only instances in which it would make sense for them hold them back would be outside the tournament however those abilities were used during the tournament. It makes far more sense that they didn't get a chance to use them rather than them holding back for some reason. Neither ban or diane have qualms about killing people who are out to get them so far, only meliodas seems to have that limitation. If anything I would argue that ban and diane got to use their abiltiies during the tournament simply because the difference in strength against their enemies wasn't so large that they would be defeated without having a chance to even try.
    I really do not think this is an all too relevant aspect since again said matches really don't establish any strength. Because Griamor was able to trap and defend against Geera and Jericho with his barrier, and we all know how easily Melodias and Diane overpowered him. I think what is clear here is how situational many of these defeats or skirmishes against the reactors have been rather than a straight up fight, as the same set of opponents are just as much prone to such circumstances. I do not think it establishes anyones particular power level. The only one I'd argue to actually have a straight up match against them is King, he is no victim of circumstance whatsoever and consistently deals with them.

    Also I'm somewhat puzzled that you think it odd that Geera could still kick the ass of Melodias and Diane when their fight in the Capital of the dead clearly showed well thought out analysis of information provided regarding their abilities, so that a neat counterattack would be possible. Again circumstances arise that put any form of power levels on the back seat, or more or less irrelevant. It would only be pure and utter brute strength of a higher level that would negate any form of strategy or circumstances, as we easily see with King during his matches against said reactors.

    Edit: Also I wouldn't say that Ban's loss to Jericho was necessarily an utter defeat because again like Geera it was a perfect counter attack out of the blue. The thing is we still have to understand Jericho's ability and whether indeed Ban has the right tools to form a counter attack before simply writing him off, and that is what Ban was interested in finding out (how she was able to stop his hyper regeneration).

    Which is why I would say Geera and Jericho were what you'd call a resounding defeat against King since despite fully understanding what he is capable as well as creating the opportunity for advantageous fight they simply did not have the tools or capabilities to overcome him. Which is far from what I can say about Melodias, Ban, and Diane being "beaten" as they simply did not utilize all their tools, that we've now been introduced to. Though it is not as if these matches were necessarily concluded so...
    Last edited by Hamy; December 03, 2013 at 04:41 PM.

New Reply
Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 1 2 3

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts