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Thread: Body and Eyes: Explaining Madara, Itachi, Obito and the Uchiha

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member 1337 haxor's Avatar
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    Cool Body and Eyes: Explaining Madara, Itachi, Obito and the Uchiha

    In chapter 658, Madara puzzled the world by activating his Susanoo despite being completely blind not just that but in chapter 657 he used the chakra absorption powers of the Preta Path despite already losing his Edo Rinnegan early in the chapter.

    This all sound crazy ass pulls from Kishimoto but actually they are consistent with some other inconsistencies shown in the series.

    In chapter 577 we saw Itachi using his Susanoo despite not activating his Mangekyo and so far Obito Uchiha has been using his Kamui without activating his Mangekyou for a long time.

    This is not coincidence, they are subtle and well placed hints as to the innate mechanics of the Sharingan and it's precursor the Rinnegan.

    The thing is, the Sharingan and the Rinnegan act as a medium to the imaginary plane of Yin chakra and materialize those abilities on the user's body through their Yang physical chakra.

    The longer you use your eyes, the more your abilities are transferred from the spiritual plane to your own body and hence your eyes suffer less strain from the burden of transferring chakra between planes.

    The Mangekyou's blindness is nothing more than the result of your eyes being swallowed by the void of the spiritual plane because of the continued strain of channeling that place to the physical world.

    By using the eyes of a deceased relative of great proximity, the transplanted eyes of that deceased person can use said person's soul as a bridge between the spiritual and physical planes hence stopping the strain placed by having your eyes punch a hole through dimensions everytime you activate the Mangekyou Sharingan. That's how the Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan works.

    Izanagi completely tears the fabric between the two planes replacing one for the other thus cancelling the natural flow of causality on the physical world. Such act closes the eye forever because it trades the light of the real world for the darkness of the imaginary one.

    Izanami also inverts the planes but in the opposite direction, by taking shots of the physical world and converting them into a recursive reality on the imaginary/spiritual plane you can force the mind of the opponent to be trapped into a fake reality coined by your terms. Instead of closing to darkness, the eye becomes empty because the user bleached the darkness of the imaginary with the light of reality.

    With that explained, the reason why Itachi could use his Susanoo without the Mangekyou is because he used it soo much that the technique had already been transferred to his body from the imaginary plane to the point he didn't need the full power of his eyes to use it on it's lower forms.

    Moving on to Obito, the reason he never went blind and could use Kamui without the MS is because Hashirama's Yang rich Senju cells provided him the perfect receiver for the Yang energy which generates Kamui.

    Obito simply made the tranfer nearly instantly whereas a normal Uchiha would lose his eyes before his body could accomodate the physical manifestation of his spiritual abilities. That completely removes the necessity for an EMS since your eyes won't be doing much work summoning your powers from another world.

    Madara is simply the culmination of this theory into a single person.

    Having achieved the EMS, Madara spent a lifetime using his Susanoo without going blind and hence the technique was completely transferred from the spiritual world to his own body and he could use it despite switching to the Rinnegan or having no eyes at all.

    The Rinnegan was achieved with Hashirama's cells and hence Madara could tranfer some of the techniques directly into his body such as Outer Path (chakra receivers) and Preta Path (chakra absorption), however, since the Rinnegan comes from a guy born with both Senju and Uchiha power to the max it can't be tranferred so easily to the physical plane as the MS so mastering it takes a whole diferente time that Madara simply didn't have in his dying years.

    In a nutshell, the power of the Uchiha is that of using their eyes as a medium to bring heavenly powers upon the physical world at the cost of straining those eyes until those powers are fully transferred from the spiritual world. Normally you will go bling but if you have a deceased relative who you can use as ghost bridge to the other side or received Senju cells that act as an anchor to those heavenly powers then you will not only be fine but also become one helluva OP motha*****.
    Last edited by 1337 haxor; December 11, 2013 at 04:28 PM.

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    Re: Body and Eyes: Explaining Madara, Itachi, Obito and the Uchiha

    Agreed. In a nutshell, Senju cells are giving him the advantage of a powerful body which "remembered" the power of the eyes and can contain them without the actual eyes.

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    Re: Body and Eyes: Explaining Madara, Itachi, Obito and the Uchiha

    So what this is saying is that because of Kishi's inability to be consistent, everything makes sense because anything can happen anyway. Also, doesn't this qualify as a bit too early to be posting this.

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    Re: Body and Eyes: Explaining Madara, Itachi, Obito and the Uchiha

    The simple fact that you as readers have to go to such absurd lengths and assumptions and fan-made explanations just to somehow justify wtf is going on is a clear testament there's something terribly wrong with Kishimoto's writing ;p
    Click here for what I consider the definition of "simply brilliant"

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    He was once a very charismatic, kind, special and inspiring person. LnDRash was a premium brand, now this brand is called LnDTRash!

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    Re: Body and Eyes: Explaining Madara, Itachi, Obito and the Uchiha

    This is arguably the best theory I have read about the source of the Uchiha powers in a while.

    The theory however has some drawbacks if I pose the following questions:

    1. Why is it that their eye jutsus are unique? I mean why does Obito have a space time technique while Madara/Sasuke/Itachi have Susanoo, Amaterasu and Tsukiyoumi?
    2. How did Itachi transfer his powers in Sasuke right when Tobi revealed himself as Madara to Sasuke?

    The biggest inconsistency with the story so far is that the resurrection of Madara brought him back in his youthful age. I mean he died an old man. How can he brought back at that age? If that was the case, then Kabuto could have simply brought back Nagato at his prime before he used the Gedo Mazou and suffered from that leg injury that left him crippled.

    I really love the logic behind it though
    Last edited by Nasuke; December 11, 2013 at 02:33 PM.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member 1337 haxor's Avatar
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    Cool Well...

    Quote Originally Posted by Nasuke View Post
    This is arguably the best theory I have read about the source of the Uchiha powers in a while.

    The theory however has some drawbacks if I pose the following questions:

    1. Why is it that their eye jutsus are unique? I mean why does Obito have a space time technique while Madara/Sasuke/Itachi have Susanoo, Amaterasu and Tsukiyoumi?
    2. How did Itachi transfer his powers in Sasuke right when Tobi revealed himself as Madara to Sasuke?

    The biggest inconsistency with the story so far is that the resurrection of Madara brought him back in his youthful age. I mean he died an old man. How can he brought back at that age? If that was the case, then Kabuto could have simply brought back Nagato at his prime before he used the Gedo Mazou and suffered from that leg injury that left him crippled.

    I really love the logic behind it though
    Good points, here are my views:

    1-The Sharingan reflects the emotions of each particular Uchiha, their mental landscape and spiritual powers differ according to their own imagination and motivations. Basically it's a personality power.

    You can attest that by looking close to the powers of each know Uchiha to sport an MS:

    -Madara aimed for perfection to meet his brother's expectations, hence his Susanoo is balanced and seemingly without flaws.

    -Itachi aimed to cover his tracks in lies to create peace, hence his Susanoo can block anyone from reaching him (Yata Mirror) and bind them in eternal bliss (Sword of Totsuka) because those were his goals for Sasuke.

    -Sasuke seeks truth and justice no matter the distance or obstacle, hence his Susanoo can fire arrows to reach distant targes while sporting flames that can change shape to burn through any obstacle he faces.

    -Obito loathed the world which took away Rin and ruined his dreams, hence his Kamui can bring him to an entire different dimension empty of the things which cause him pain.

    -Shisui wanted to create peace at the cost of independence, hence his Kotoamatsukami can force others to conform to his views while losing sight of their own toughts.

    2-I really don't have an answear for that now, it can be said that Itachi used some kind of seal to place his Mangekyou's chakra on Sasuke's eye but apart from that I don't know how that trick worked,

    As for Madara's ressurection, Kabuto said his Edo Tensei was special and we all saw how Nagato restored himself to prime physical condition by eating chakra from Gyuki.

    My take is that Madara isn't exactly youthful but was actually rejuvenated by artificial means in the same way as Nagato. Kabuto didn't bother restoring the later because he slacked of researching him since Nagato had only died recently, this is evidenced when Itachi used Nagato's help to track Kabuto and the latter didn't know about Nagato's sensor skill thus falling for Itachi's lie.

    In his original revival plot, however, I take that Madara manipulated the chakra receivers intended for his resurrection to make him younger. I take that he could manipulate the chakra source of his revival so that his age and prowess were as close as possible to maximum potential.

    Other than that I take that Kishimoto needed to introduce Madara to the plot as an actual fearsome threat so he mustered the best explanation he could to make him youthful again.

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    Re: Body and Eyes: Explaining Madara, Itachi, Obito and the Uchiha

    Quote Originally Posted by 1337 haxor View Post
    This all sound crazy ass pulls from Kishimoto but actually they are consistente with some other inconsistencies shown in the series.
    Inconsistent with consistencies consistent with inconlishxaxqwp this is a good tongue-twister So basically, we have 2 parts of the manga, inconsistent with each other...

    I appreciate your effort and willpower in actually trying to explain this WTFery But, as I said above, if something so major is not in the manga itself, then it's more of a fanfic than explanation of canon.

    ...

    Wait, why would Madara need Rinnegan? After using Preta and Susanoo, there should be nothing weird about him being able to use all Rinnegan techs, becoming Juubi Jin with Bijuu still freed and Obito still alive with Mazo in him, or better yet just grow a gigantic flower on his technically Hashirama's back and casting IT by himself. *sigh*
    Last edited by 0Xellos; December 11, 2013 at 04:25 PM.
    Erfworld

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    Meh can't have Bleach without fan raging, makes it fun.

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    Re: Well...

    Quote Originally Posted by 1337 haxor View Post

    1-The Sharingan reflects the emotions of each particular Uchiha, their mental landscape and spiritual powers differ according to their own imagination and motivations. Basically it's a personality power.

    You can attest that by looking close to the powers of each know Uchiha to sport an MS:

    -Madara aimed for perfection to meet his brother's expectations, hence his Susanoo is balanced and seemingly without flaws.

    -Itachi aimed to cover his tracks in lies to create peace, hence his Susanoo can block anyone from reaching him (Yata Mirror) and bind them in eternal bliss (Sword of Totsuka) because those were his goals for Sasuke.
    If that was true, I don't think that Itachi and Madara would have the same power since their personalities differed a little bit too much for this theory's own good. Also, I could squeeze this in too, as in why Madara didn't show Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi since both are actually needed to awaken Susanoo. Or both eyes, maybe I missed some of those things.

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    Re: Body and Eyes: Explaining Madara, Itachi, Obito and the Uchiha

    well , Sasuke activated armored sussanoo when his eyes was closed , then he killed original white zetsu ....

    and if I remember correctly , Itachi said that EMS " unlock new set of powers " he said "unlock"

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member 1337 haxor's Avatar
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    Cool Well...

    Quote Originally Posted by Roman View Post
    If that was true, I don't think that Itachi and Madara would have the same power since their personalities differed a little bit too much for this theory's own good. Also, I could squeeze this in too, as in why Madara didn't show Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi since both are actually needed to awaken Susanoo. Or both eyes, maybe I missed some of those things.
    I don't know if Madara even has Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu or if that got retconned, I personally think Kishimoto dropped the idea when he realized each Uchiha could have powers related to their own motivations or it could be that neither Madara or Sasuke used Tsukuyomi because Kishimoto didn't want the best genjutsu to be nerfed by their opponents constantly breaking it.

    It could be that Susanoo is a specific manifestation of the Uchiha's inner self and that awakening the power of both eyes didn't mean it had to be specifically Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi but actually whichever power both eyes have.

    While Shisui couldn't possibly use Susanoo due to the recharging time of his MS, Obito could possibly use Susanoo if he had both eyes if the above paragraph is true.

    Sorry if I can't picture Itachi's motivations perfectly and if some parts of the theory contradict what was earlier stated in the manga, there are ample ways to try and reason with Itachi's motivations and goals whereas there were also many changes into the core plot which may have retconned some previous information.

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    Re: Body and Eyes: Explaining Madara, Itachi, Obito and the Uchiha

    I haven't read the thread cause it's GINORMOUS, but I'll throw my opinion on the matter in.

    Uchiha received the Yin, or spiritual energy of Rikudou Sennin which is represented by their eyes. The Senju received the Yang, or physical energy, represented by their longevity and strength. When an Uchiha is stated to have powerful eyes or a potent chakra, that's referring to how powerful their spiritual energy is (which is the power behind all of their doujutsu). This energy is where all Uchiha techniques come from, making them Yin release (imagination given form). Tobirama states that once their powerful chakra manifests in their brain, they gain the Sharingan, meaning that the Sharingan isn't the source of the special chakra, but simply a reaction TO the special chakra.

    If you take away those eyes, that special chakra is not lost. It still exists within the Uchiha. And the only techniques they lose access to with the loss of their eyes, are the ones that actually use the eyes. Amaterasu needs the eyes to focus on what they want to burn. Tsukuyomi needs one to gain eye contact with the victim intended to be placed in an illusion. Susanoo however, relies on the lifeforce of the user to be used and maintained. Kamui (the gateway version) relies on an eye to "open the door", but the ghostification version that allows one to warp through attacks likely allows you to simply activate your body without needing your eye.

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    Re: Body and Eyes: Explaining Madara, Itachi, Obito and the Uchiha

    Madara may not even have Amaterasu or Tsukiyomi.

    My theory on this issue:

    An Uchiha can always unlock 3 MS abilities. But 2 of these MS abilities are unique, while the 3rd one will always be Susanoo. Susanoo will be unlocked after 2 of the "prerequisite" MS abilities have been unlocked.

    The 2 "non-Susanoo" MS abilities are different for each Uchiha. Closely-related siblings may have similar abilities (e.g. Sasuke and itachi both having Amaterasu). In general, however, everyone from different families within the Uchiha clan has their own unique MS abilities - whether it's space/time jutsu, special genjutsus (e,g, Kotoamatsukami) or ninjutsu e.g. Amaterasu).

    The reason why Obito never manage to awaken Susanoo is because he gave away one of his MS. So he was not able to awaken his 2nd "prerequisite" MS ability. The long-range Kamui ability that Kakashi is using is Obito's original 2nd MS ability.

    Now, even among closely related siblings, the MS abilities may not be identical even if they are similar.

    For instance, I am beginning to think that Sasuke may not have Tsukiyomi. His first MS ability is to create Amaterasu flames (same as Itachi). His second MS ability is to shape/control/manipulate Amaterasu flames (something Itachi does not have since his 2nd MS ability is Tsukiyomi).
    Last edited by Ryr; December 14, 2013 at 06:31 AM.

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    Re: Body and Eyes: Explaining Madara, Itachi, Obito and the Uchiha

    You're definitely onto something with the Yin and Yang explanations and significance of the spiritual world on jutsu and the body in general. I don't think Kishi's done explaining that stuff for sure. But for Itachi, it just looked like he was so skilled with Susanoo that he could 'flash activate' his Mangekyou for partial transformations if needed, similar to a jinchuuriki (which I'll get to in a minute). For Tobi's kamui, I believe it's a similar 'flash activate' because that's the skill he's particularly apt with. The reason we weren't shown his mangekyou for so long was purely so Kishi could preserve the "mystery" of who Tobi was. If we all knew it was shaped like Kakashi's, that whole "I am Uchiha Madara" thing wouldn't have exactly been so divisive in the fandom.

    About the jin allusion, your idea of anchoring a spiritual creature to the physical plane made me think that Susanoo and bijuu have more similarities than we know of. Madara's claim that the power of a final Susanoo matches the power of a bijuu seems to be more foreshadowing that the juubi was itself a citizen of the spiritual plane that for whatever reason became anchored to the physical plane as the shinju. In this way, forming a yang-rich body becoming a jinchuuriki (let's face it, that's what "compatibility with a bijuu likely means) and a yin-rich set of eyes pulling and constraining a spirit beast from the imaginary world are two different ways of accomplishing the same thing.

    This is why all the Susanoo have subtle differences, and are affected by the user's chakra like bijuu are. Sasuke's Susanoo is the perfect example- it became cold and filled with hatred when he was at his lowest, just like Kurama has slowly let his guards down because of Naruto's chakra 'infecting' it for so many years and then completely being overcome by it during the tug-o-war.

    This could also explain the bizarre abilities that the MS grants the user. They belong to the spirit beasts themselves. Maybe this is the reason MS jutsu have the names of deities, as well.

    ---------- Post added at 10:32 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:10 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by 1337 haxor View Post
    While Shisui couldn't possibly use Susanoo due to the recharging time of his MS, Obito could possibly use Susanoo if he had both eyes if the above paragraph is true.
    The way things have been going, we're going to see Kakashi and Tobi using Susanoo by holding hands xD

    ---------- Post added at 10:53 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:32 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryr View Post
    For instance, I am beginning to think that Sasuke may not have Tsukiyomi. His first MS ability is to create Amaterasu flames (same as Itachi). His second MS ability is to shape/control/manipulate Amaterasu flames (something Itachi does not have since his 2nd MS ability is Tsukiyomi).
    If my rambling above is true, then its possible that the process of using a Susanoo and/or other Mangekyou abilities is akin to bonding with that particular beast. Individual adeptness at specific things seems to influence the path of what abilities their eyes use too.

    Maybe like this IE: Itachi and Sasuke and Fugaku's line all have Amaterasu. Itachi was superior with genjutsu so his other eye branched to that and Sasuke was superior with shape manipulation so his other eye reacted to his proficiency with that specific method of using ninjutsu.

    I think Kamui is a special case that is dependent on the special circumstances of Kakashi and Obito. Though I'm still positive Madara and Zetsu orchestrated everything about that scenario just so Madara would have a pawn with one of the strongest and most special sharingan abilities. Look how much he knows about Sasuke's potential just by feeling the chakra of his eyes. Surely when he snatched up Obito he knew about his potential to unlock Kamui.

    EDIT: SNAP! I just realized why Madara told Obito it was "as if he slipped through the rocks". He not only knew about Obito's potential, but planted the idea in his head that he could do that, because Madara was certain that he would be unlocking Kamui very shortly. We as the reader know that he couldn't have activated that ability at that time (and it was most likely Zetsu that carried him through the earth before he died from the boulder), but Obito was a dumb kid and it was only a tiny idea implanted in the back of his head.

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    Re: Body and Eyes: Explaining Madara, Itachi, Obito and the Uchiha

    1337 haxor you got it right o nthe stop coming form the guy who really has that power singature lol too bad no one really know this how it really works and figured out i hope so other could awaken this gift in rea life other than me .... but any amangjekyuo drawn masashi i can do perfectly i think obito will give kkashi his mangekyuo for kakashi eternal menaing three like itahci said kakashi mangeykuo is two kakashi put totoghter ovlerlapped with osme type pf middle like kkashi wth six curved lines lol but i am looking for secret info on using htese tehicnques ....all i do to make new mangekyuou is draw a scteh of it using copy wheel and then look at my eerrie sketch but neji hyuga mangekyou sharingan wouldbe like sasuke but eight not six with blkc lines like theo ne above and an ocotgon in the middle with line coming fomr each eight triangle point then straight lines and shshui middle and hkakaku uchiha would be like naori but with four of them and izuna middle conecting so yeah all i do to see a lsignature things screen door relfection and acivavating it easily like in signatur videos i didi that for hkakaku nad neji and all the mangeyou i see perfefctly like cgi in my eye also can proududce cartoon versions nmadara blue spaklkes itahci orang spakkls asuke pruple spakrkles and rinnegan soo cool naruto sage mode eye its all i got spirl rinngna purle white and byakugan it all true i take two or fiv tils of legend nad iam set to go... as sasuke great avenger colelction all amngektuos but its fune to read it secret i cmplpltely agreee ... maybe i tell you its true that i cna do this
    Watch all videos on nthis is yotuube channel real naruto 100 percent real http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yoyzFnMtW30 I am sasuek Uhciah two tailed jinchuriki of bijuu legend when the story ends I will be so happy I have posses all mangekyuo and eternal collected madara eternal as well and four new mangekyous i havent recorded myselfwith last chance I turth ese eye in in rela life with spiral rinnegan and rinnegan nad byakugan and naruto sage mode eyes orangel ight side frog pupil

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    Re: 1337 Haxor you are on to something

    brilliant theory on how the MS abilities become embedded in the physical world over time, at the expense of the eyes!

    I also found it weird that Madara could turn on Susano without eyes, but I also had the feeling that he used it so much in his life that his body 'remembered' how to do it at this point. I'm definitely down with your depiction of Yin chakra, but instead of the spirit world, I think it stems from the user's imagination.

    Not that this makes much of a dent in your theory, because it completely makes sense how having superior yang chakra makes for a better receptor of potential yin chakra. Also, you are blowing my mind on how Izanagi subverts causality.

    ---------- Post added at 01:23 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:15 AM ----------

    NM, I read it again, and you did mention imagination. Reading this has got my speculation engine running.


    All this thought makes me now believe that Madara cannot be beaten on the physical plane. He will succeed and get his Eternal Tsukiyomi and put everyone to sleep.

    Everyone will fall except for Sasuke, who will activate Izanagi before getting hit so he can stay alive and fight Madara.

    Somehow Sasuke will need to balance his Izanagi so he doesn't fall into a delusional trap. Maybe he will close it with Izanami. Maybe he will become blind. Or maybe he will regain his sight but lose sharingan forever.

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