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Thread: Body and Eyes: Explaining Madara, Itachi, Obito and the Uchiha

  1. #16
    Banned 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Body and Eyes: Explaining Madara, Itachi, Obito and the Uchiha

    Quote Originally Posted by 1337 haxor View Post
    In chapter 658, Madara puzzled the world by activating his Susanoo despite being completely blind not just that but in chapter 657 he used the chakra absorption powers of the Preta Path despite already losing his Edo Rinnegan early in the chapter.

    This all sound crazy ass pulls from Kishimoto but actually they are consistent with some other inconsistencies shown in the series.

    In chapter 577 we saw Itachi using his Susanoo despite not activating his Mangekyo and so far Obito Uchiha has been using his Kamui without activating his Mangekyou for a long time.

    This is not coincidence, they are subtle and well placed hints as to the innate mechanics of the Sharingan and it's precursor the Rinnegan.

    The thing is, the Sharingan and the Rinnegan act as a medium to the imaginary plane of Yin chakra and materialize those abilities on the user's body through their Yang physical chakra.

    The longer you use your eyes, the more your abilities are transferred from the spiritual plane to your own body and hence your eyes suffer less strain from the burden of transferring chakra between planes.

    The Mangekyou's blindness is nothing more than the result of your eyes being swallowed by the void of the spiritual plane because of the continued strain of channeling that place to the physical world.

    By using the eyes of a deceased relative of great proximity, the transplanted eyes of that deceased person can use said person's soul as a bridge between the spiritual and physical planes hence stopping the strain placed by having your eyes punch a hole through dimensions everytime you activate the Mangekyou Sharingan. That's how the Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan works.

    Izanagi completely tears the fabric between the two planes replacing one for the other thus cancelling the natural flow of causality on the physical world. Such act closes the eye forever because it trades the light of the real world for the darkness of the imaginary one.

    Izanami also inverts the planes but in the opposite direction, by taking shots of the physical world and converting them into a recursive reality on the imaginary/spiritual plane you can force the mind of the opponent to be trapped into a fake reality coined by your terms. Instead of closing to darkness, the eye becomes empty because the user bleached the darkness of the imaginary with the light of reality.

    With that explained, the reason why Itachi could use his Susanoo without the Mangekyou is because he used it soo much that the technique had already been transferred to his body from the imaginary plane to the point he didn't need the full power of his eyes to use it on it's lower forms.

    Moving on to Obito, the reason he never went blind and could use Kamui without the MS is because Hashirama's Yang rich Senju cells provided him the perfect receiver for the Yang energy which generates Kamui.

    Obito simply made the tranfer nearly instantly whereas a normal Uchiha would lose his eyes before his body could accomodate the physical manifestation of his spiritual abilities. That completely removes the necessity for an EMS since your eyes won't be doing much work summoning your powers from another world.

    Madara is simply the culmination of this theory into a single person.

    Having achieved the EMS, Madara spent a lifetime using his Susanoo without going blind and hence the technique was completely transferred from the spiritual world to his own body and he could use it despite switching to the Rinnegan or having no eyes at all.

    The Rinnegan was achieved with Hashirama's cells and hence Madara could tranfer some of the techniques directly into his body such as Outer Path (chakra receivers) and Preta Path (chakra absorption), however, since the Rinnegan comes from a guy born with both Senju and Uchiha power to the max it can't be tranferred so easily to the physical plane as the MS so mastering it takes a whole diferente time that Madara simply didn't have in his dying years.

    In a nutshell, the power of the Uchiha is that of using their eyes as a medium to bring heavenly powers upon the physical world at the cost of straining those eyes until those powers are fully transferred from the spiritual world. Normally you will go bling but if you have a deceased relative who you can use as ghost bridge to the other side or received Senju cells that act as an anchor to those heavenly powers then you will not only be fine but also become one helluva OP motha*****.
    nerd

    ---------- Post added at 11:07 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:06 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    So what this is saying is that because of Kishi's inability to be consistent, everything makes sense because anything can happen anyway. Also, doesn't this qualify as a bit too early to be posting this.
    actually what this is saying is that kishi is being consistent, you should pay more attention.

  2. #17
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shahdan's Avatar
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    Re: Body and Eyes: Explaining Madara, Itachi, Obito and the Uchiha

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    So what this is saying is that because of Kishi's inability to be consistent, everything makes sense because anything can happen anyway. Also, doesn't this qualify as a bit too early to be posting this.
    Bingo! The guy is just pulling stuff out of his ass now. If that was Petra Path, then why the heck he didn't use it on the Bijuus when they almost whacked him to death? This manga is making less and less sense as it progresses.

    @OP

    I am pretty sure he survived the slaps because of the pseudo-sage mode he is using through Hashirama's avatar on his chest. If you recall, when Naruto was training for SM, he fell directly on the rock spikes and wasn't injured. This pseudo-SM has strengthened his body.

  3. #18
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Sanadan's Avatar
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    Re: Body and Eyes: Explaining Madara, Itachi, Obito and the Uchiha

    Quote Originally Posted by LnDRash View Post
    The simple fact that you as readers have to go to such absurd lengths and assumptions and fan-made explanations just to somehow justify wtf is going on is a clear testament there's something terribly wrong with Kishimoto's writing ;p
    Yeah I'm onboard this ship. Even if this is correct in the end no fan should have to work this hard just to make sense out of what should have been a pretty straight forward plot idea. I mean if things are this complicated, how many attempts did they have to try in order to verify that reality in the Naruto world is in fact like this? Or did they just guess over and over and everything just ended up being correct?
    So much is fuzzy and shady in this manga nowadays and it's unfortiunately not because too little of the story has been revealed.
    Meh

  4. #19
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Notak's Avatar
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    Re: Body and Eyes: Explaining Madara, Itachi, Obito and the Uchiha

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    Bingo! The guy is just pulling stuff out of his ass now. If that was Petra Path, then why the heck he didn't use it on the Bijuus when they almost whacked him to death? This manga is making less and less sense as it progresses.

    @OP

    I am pretty sure he survived the slaps because of the pseudo-sage mode he is using through Hashirama's avatar on his chest. If you recall, when Naruto was training for SM, he fell directly on the rock spikes and wasn't injured. This pseudo-SM has strengthened his body.
    That and Madara has an enormous chakra reserve similar to Hashirama's, they were raised in wars. That alone is pretty tough.

  5. #20
    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner endlessmanga's Avatar
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    Re: Body and Eyes: Explaining Madara, Itachi, Obito and the Uchiha

    Quote Originally Posted by Nasuke View Post
    2. How did Itachi transfer his powers in Sasuke right when Tobi revealed himself as Madara to Sasuke?
    i think the answer for this question is also the reason why madara can use MS power without eyes.

  6. #21
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    Re: Body and Eyes: Explaining Madara, Itachi, Obito and the Uchiha

    Quote Originally Posted by badluckartist View Post
    EDIT: SNAP! I just realized why Madara told Obito it was "as if he slipped through the rocks". He not only knew about Obito's potential, but planted the idea in his head that he could do that, because Madara was certain that he would be unlocking Kamui very shortly. We as the reader know that he couldn't have activated that ability at that time (and it was most likely Zetsu that carried him through the earth before he died from the boulder), but Obito was a dumb kid and it was only a tiny idea implanted in the back of his head.
    So you're saying Madara pulled off inception?

  7. #22
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Bradhimself's Avatar
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    Re: Body and Eyes: Explaining Madara, Itachi, Obito and the Uchiha

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryr View Post
    Madara may not even have Amaterasu or Tsukiyomi.

    My theory on this issue:

    An Uchiha can always unlock 3 MS abilities. But 2 of these MS abilities are unique, while the 3rd one will always be Susanoo. Susanoo will be unlocked after 2 of the "prerequisite" MS abilities have been unlocked.

    The 2 "non-Susanoo" MS abilities are different for each Uchiha. Closely-related siblings may have similar abilities (e.g. Sasuke and itachi both having Amaterasu). In general, however, everyone from different families within the Uchiha clan has their own unique MS abilities - whether it's space/time jutsu, special genjutsus (e,g, Kotoamatsukami) or ninjutsu e.g. Amaterasu).

    The reason why Obito never manage to awaken Susanoo is because he gave away one of his MS. So he was not able to awaken his 2nd "prerequisite" MS ability. The long-range Kamui ability that Kakashi is using is Obito's original 2nd MS ability.

    Now, even among closely related siblings, the MS abilities may not be identical even if they are similar.

    For instance, I am beginning to think that Sasuke may not have Tsukiyomi. His first MS ability is to create Amaterasu flames (same as Itachi). His second MS ability is to shape/control/manipulate Amaterasu flames (something Itachi does not have since his 2nd MS ability is Tsukiyomi).
    The long range Kamui is the same Kamui. Kakashi was able to return himself from obito's dimension using said "Long range" Whilst Kakashi isn't long range from himself.

    We also saw Obito stop a long range kamui (Kakashi targetting Gedo's neck), Also proving that he has that ability.

    So one eye being long range whilst the other not is null and void.

    Just adding that sasuke has Tsukuyomi, Just not a strong one. He is able to shape Amaterasu because he has amazing chakra shape manipulation skills, Same way he can make a lightning sword.
    You can't end a good party without someone on the floor.

  8. #23
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member badluckartist's Avatar
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    Re: Body and Eyes: Explaining Madara, Itachi, Obito and the Uchiha

    Quote Originally Posted by Sanadan View Post
    Yeah I'm onboard this ship. Even if this is correct in the end no fan should have to work this hard just to make sense out of what should have been a pretty straight forward plot idea. I mean if things are this complicated, how many attempts did they have to try in order to verify that reality in the Naruto world is in fact like this? Or did they just guess over and over and everything just ended up being correct?
    So much is fuzzy and shady in this manga nowadays and it's unfortiunately not because too little of the story has been revealed.
    But what happens when the mystery is unveiled and everything does make more sense? Hope is the heart of speculation, and the point of threads like this is to discuss what directions are possible for Kishi to go down. Don't forget that 'mystery' also existed in Part I. The bijuu aren't 'just chakra monsters', they were previously a composite entity that was more than just a chakra monster. The Bloody Mist wasn't just 'a barbaric graduation ritual', it was modeled after the Uchiha method of gaining power by killing comrades/breaking bonds. Kamui isn't just a massively convenient superpower, it seems to be the pinnacle of engineered despair. I can't wait to see how everyone posts after the manga is over.

    ---------- Post added at 04:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:05 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Bradhimself View Post
    The long range Kamui is the same Kamui. Kakashi was able to return himself from obito's dimension using said "Long range" Whilst Kakashi isn't long range from himself.

    We also saw Obito stop a long range kamui (Kakashi targetting Gedo's neck), Also proving that he has that ability.

    So one eye being long range whilst the other not is null and void.

    Just adding that sasuke has Tsukuyomi, Just not a strong one. He is able to shape Amaterasu because he has amazing chakra shape manipulation skills, Same way he can make a lightning sword.
    Kamui used on one's self and long range Kamui are exclusive to each eye, unless it's to interact with the other eye's power. Obito can't use long-range Kamui unless it's to nullify Kakashi's, and Kakashi can't use self-Kamui unless it's to nullify Obito's other-dimension entrapment. Think about how Sasuke's non-Amaterasu eye could nullify the effects of Amaterasu. It's not that far fetched.

    I used to agree that Sasuke has Tsukuyomi, but now I'm not sure. MS abilities seem to be much more specialized than they previously seemed. If I were to guess, certain Uchiha lineages have certain abilities guaranteed and others are dependent on the individual talent. Say Fugaku's lineage has Amaterasu. The other abilities granted are dependent on which son has talent in what area: Itachi was a genjutsu master, so he gained a perception-of-time-altering Tsukuyomi. Sasuke is a shape manipulation master so he gained Enton manipulation. Your guess is as good as mine on that though.

    ---------- Post added at 04:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:12 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Xrayz0r View Post
    So you're saying Madara pulled off inception?
    Not much... he just gave Obito the idea to use a jutsu that he didn't have yet, but absolutely would after Zetsu listened in on his sleep-talking about Rin and Kakashi and engineered the events that would lead to Kamui unlocking.

  9. #24
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted gnut's Avatar
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    Re: Body and Eyes: Explaining Madara, Itachi, Obito and the Uchiha

    Quote Originally Posted by badluckartist View Post
    I can't wait to see how everyone posts after the manga is over.
    man...i will be 50
    i started this manga when i was in my 20's...i turn 40 in 2months....
    like berserk....i was like 16 when i first read it....

  10. #25
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Bradhimself's Avatar
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    Re: Body and Eyes: Explaining Madara, Itachi, Obito and the Uchiha

    Quote Originally Posted by badluckartist View Post
    Kamui used on one's self and long range Kamui are exclusive to each eye, unless it's to interact with the other eye's power. Obito can't use long-range Kamui unless it's to nullify Kakashi's, and Kakashi can't use self-Kamui unless it's to nullify Obito's other-dimension entrapment. Think about how Sasuke's non-Amaterasu eye could nullify the effects of Amaterasu. It's not that far fetched.
    Kakashi nullifying Obito's jutsu is far fetched. If Obito was still using the Jutsu that would make sense but he wasn't, Being in that dimension doesn't mean you are under a constant jutsu, You were in a jutsu to get there and you are in another to get back, In which Kakashi said it was 1 jutsu. So kakashi must have used obito's same jutsu to return himself.

    Also to send bee in and out of a dimension, he would have to have the same ability as Obito to do so. http://www.onemanga.me/naruto_manga/610/15/

    The main reason why they use them in different ways (Until Obito was revealed) was to keep the mystery of the Masked Man. If it were Identical then we would have known a while ago who the person was. As soon as Kakashi figured out it was the same jutsu he was able to use it like obito, Bar having hashirama's cells he could use it only scarcely in comparison.
    You can't end a good party without someone on the floor.

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