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Thread: YES!!! - The best thing that could happen in Naruto!! <3

  1. #46
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    Re: YES!!! - The best thing that could happen in Naruto!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Xrayz0r View Post
    I quoted just that to show you why I'm now done with you. You put "instant" in bold, blatantly setting up a straw man as if I wouldn't notice. As if anyone here has ever claimed that throwing FRS was an instant benefit of sage mode. Who cares about instant? No one said that. Kamui, for Kakashi, was not an instant benefit of MS, but it does not change the fact that IT IS DEPENDANT ON MS. Yes he had to practice, so what? Without MS there'd be no point in any practice. Without MS, there would be NO Kamui, and yet it was not instant. How do you reconcile this with the straw man that you put all your faith in?

    The above paragraph is just exemplary of your entire problem around here. You do not reason. And when the other person does, you weasel out by saying "don't make it rocket science", a cunning way of saying "sorry I can't keep up, but I don't feel like losing an argument in public either".

    As for "outrageous assumptions considered to be facts". If you pay attention, it's all carefully reasoned. It's facts taken from the manga, reason applied, leads to conclusions. When you disagree with the conclusions, all you have to do is show why the arguments are invalid, incoherent, inconsistent, or based on faulty premises. You never do any of this. That's it.
    And you deliberately didn't quote the last part because of exactly what I've said. Ironic.

    This proves that you don't understand a single word I've said or that you don't even bother to understand my point of view. Your example of Kamui and MS is ridiculous because we know for a fact that it's a jutsu that comes down with it. And it IS instant just how Itachi/Sasuke instantly have Amaterasu/Tsukuyomi. Sage Mode and throwing/expanding FRS doesn't. It's not considered a fact, it's something that one can argue or interpret in various ways. Do you understand what I'm saying? To summarize, FRS was perfect from the start, Naruto just needed to be strong enough to use it. He found a way through Sage Mode. Once the risk was nullified, it was normal for him to start practicing it and using it in advanced ways, which doesn't means it's all because of Sage Mode but because of Naruto's skill. This is why I speculate that whichever solution Naruto found to disable the risk of injuring himself, he would still found another way to use the FRS, regardless of Sage Mode or not.

    But you ARE making rocket science out of your own opinion and thinking that I'd somehow agree with you because of the detailed description. It doesn't work like that because like I said, it's open for various interpretations, you have yours, I have mine. Actually, I'm keeping up way more than you do, but whatever helps you sleep.

    "Reason" is relative here. Facts are one thing, but leading it to something else is another. I showed you my reason, you just don't accept it because you think you're right. That's the whole problem here.

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  3. #47
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    Re: YES!!! - The best thing that could happen in Naruto!!

    Quote Originally Posted by jiraiyanindo View Post
    The FRS was an incomplete jutsu because the damage was so great it would harm its user and the taget, which goes against the whole point of using it kinda like Shiki Fujin. Naruto completed the jutsu in Sage Mode as it allowed him to use it without suffering the effects of nerve damage because of his enhanced healing/recovery powers while in Sage Mode. At that point, the jutsu was complete.

    Naruto took it a step beyond that by figuring out how to throw the jutsu. I can only assume he was able to throw the jutsu with the same concept as frog kumite, which is by manipulating the natural energy around the FRS. Now the interesting question is how can he throw the FRS while in Kyuubi Mode. This has yet to be explained in the manga.
    FRS is a complete jutsu. the only problem with this jutsu is double edge, damaging both user and target. naruto found his own method in sage mode to solved this problem by changing FRS into ranged attack .. FLYING Fuuton rasen shuriken.

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    Re: YES!!! - The best thing that could happen in Naruto!!

    I'm willing to see this through to the end. How long can a person keep this up with a straight face.

    Issue #1

    REASONING: I'll try to be as clear as possible. Kakashi did not gain Kamui in an instant. He may have gained the potential ability to link with the other dimension in an instant, but he did not gain Kamui in an instant. Kamui is a jutsu that is based on that ability. The actual jutsu, Kamui, he had to develop step by step. Right now he can transfer objects of any size, before he could only transfer small objects, and before that he could only transfer small objects quite inefficiently. Extrapolate further backward, and you'll reach a point where Kakashi notices that his eye has access to another dimension, but can't really utilize it as a jutsu quite yet. Hence: he had to develop the jutsu. Back then when he needed a handseal for Kamui and targeted the wrong portion of Deidara, Kakashi had a flawed and incomplete jutsu, even IF it was useful.

    CONCLUSION: Kakashi did not gain the jutsu he coined Kamui in an instant. He had to develop a jutsu based on the ability that the eye offered.

    ANALOGY: Similarly, ANYONE's body holds the ability/potential to do a bunshin no jutsu. However, bunshin no jutsu is NOT instant. No one can pull it off instantly simply by having a body. There's more to it than that. You have to practice bunshin no jutsu WITH that body, in order to be able to finally pull off: bunshin no jutsu.

    By this I have proven that your straw man of me saying that FRS was an instant benefit, is, besides being a straw man, stupid. No one claimed that FRS is instantly fixed by sage mode. What was claimed, by me and others, is that FRS owes its completion (in that it can be thrown, thereby reducing risk of injury) to sage mode. At this point you're ready to admit that you set up a straw man, which was both dishonest and stupid.

    Final conclusion: You do not understand the difference between a jutsu and a potential ability. Sage mode offers the ability/potential to fix FRS, by offering the potential to turn FRS into a jutsu that can be thrown. This is not instant, because one has to practice, but its development is dependant ON sage mode, or any other mode offering similar benefits. QED


    Issue #2

    Now. FRS was perfect from the start? Let's see how that holds up.

    REASONING:
    Naruto's initial FRS dissipated randomly before hitting Kakuzu. Did you notice? The property "perfect" does not correlate well with the property of "potential random dissipation". These are inconsistent when attributed to the same jutsu, and either of these has to go. Because the jutsu did in FACT randomly dissipate, the property of "being pefect" has to go. By now, the jutsu already isn't perfect, but I'm not finished.
    Second. Because it can't be thrown, and yet it's called after a shuriken (which as you might know, is something that is thrown), the user has to get within punching range with a giant obvious ball of chakra. Not very stealthy, not very sneaky. You can be sure to expect a serious counterattack. What happened in reality? Yamato had to save Naruto's life.
    Third. Because it can't be thrown, the arm is always near the explosion, it damages the nerves.

    CONCLUSION: Pre sage mode FRS is not to be considered perfect.


    Quote the parts that you don't agree with, and show us why they are incorrect. You are a master of rhetoric, but not of argumentation. These are polar opposites. I want to see you get into the fray and argue against points head on, not weasel out by shouting general statements from a distance.
    Last edited by Xrayz0r; January 25, 2014 at 08:48 AM.

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    Re: YES!!! - The best thing that could happen in Naruto!!

    You're starting to become hilarious. You're repeating yourself with the same sentences only with different words. It's not hard to keep up a straight face that way.

    It's funny how you're saying that I don't understand the concept of this debate but ironically, you're the one who doesn't get it because you like too much what you're writing that you're repeating yourself. You can't seem to grasp the concept of vagueness of giving the benefit to certain aspects when there a clear fact isn't present about it. I guess I'll have ti simplify, again, what my reasoning is. Your example with Kakashi is, again, ridiculous because you can't compare the two instances in this argument, but you're doing it again anyway because you yourself don't understand what the hell you're talking about. Gaining Mangekyou Sharingan means gaining Kamui, no matter on what level it's mastered. Therefore it technically holds no ground in the discussion in which FRS isn't dependable on the Sage Mode. Did you get that? Did you? I'll simplify again - Kamui doesn't work without MS, but FRS does work without Sage Mode regardless of the risk injury. So, since FRS doesn't require Sage Mode to be used, it doesn't have anything to do with it. It's a jutsu that was developed on its own. It obviously requires a strong body which Naruto needed to gain in order to not damage himself. Being something left for interpretation, what you don't understand, is exactly the concept of two simultaneous opinions we're having. Because FRS isn't dependable on Sage Mode, it doesn't mean that throwing and expansion of it is a benefit of Sage Mode. It could mean that when Naruto entered the Sage Mode, found out that he doesn't injure himself anymore, he proceeded on with practicing other usages with it, regardless of Sage Mode having anything to do with it other than Naruto's own skill. Did you get it now? I sure fucking hope so.

    Quote Quote:
    or any other mode offering similar benefits
    Really? What the hell was I saying in my posts? Sage Mode isn't necessarily the reason and the factor of Naruto's ability to throw it and expand it. It can be but it also doesn't have to be because, again, Sage Mode isn't a requirement for the FRS. If it was, he wouldn't be so proficient with the usage of FRS in Rikudou Mode.

    That's your reasoning. Do you understand that? Creating a perfect jutsu and perfecting the usage of it are two entirely different things. When Naruto hit Kakuzu, it was a perfect hit and he practically killed him, regardless of doing the damage to himself because the body wasn't ready for it.

    I'm not trying to prove you incorrect, I'm just stating my opinion. I gave you perfect arguments but your ability to comprehend them is not on the same level as them, which, again, brings you to practically quote yourself in another new post with the same meaning. If you still didn't grasp this, don't continue, this is getting boring.

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  7. #50
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    Re: YES!!! - The best thing that could happen in Naruto!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Roman View Post
    The point is she forbade it because it posed a threat to the user's body.

    That's why I said it's left for interpretation. He succeeded in creating and executing the FRS without the Sage Mode. That's a fact and it has nothing to do with another fact that it damages the user. FRS was just a technique that required the body stats to be higher in order to not damage the body. Hence why I'm saying it's the same FRS he did against Kakuzu and why throwing and expanding it doesn't have to be attributed to Sage Mode because he would probably do the same if he found an alternative to Sage Mode, i.e. a solution for not damaging the body.

    Semantics. It severs/slices/cuts/shreds on a microscopic level.
    Not what you were saying. You said she forbade it because there was a limit to how many times Naruto could use it.

    He did not succeed entirely in executing the FRS. First time he used it against Kakuzu, it fell apart, and Naruto was in danger as result. It is not a fact that he was entirely successful in creating FRS because it wasn't a stable jutsu and required instant hit, which if Naruto did connect would injure his arm and likely render him unable to fight. Like rasengan and chidori before Kakashi got the Sharingan, FRS was incomplete.

    No he would not have. There's no other way to throw the FRS, keep it stable, or make it bigger. Naruto could do that with rasengan because he was still connected to the chakra and controlling it, and he had a clone to help him keep it stable. I only remember FRS being thrown once or twice in Kyuubi chakra mode, but one was miniature. It was easy for Naruto to use FRS because the KYuubi's chakra helped Naruto make the jutsu and keep it stable. FRS in Sage Mode is complete because Naruto was able to keep it stable and expand on its capabilities that he couldn't have done otherwise.


    Nope. Works like a needle, doesn't shred. SM FRS shreds, but normal FRS does not. Naruto received the same kind of damage to his arm, if not less severe.

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    Re: YES!!! - The best thing that could happen in Naruto!!

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    Not what you were saying. You said she forbade it because there was a limit to how many times Naruto could use it.

    He did not succeed entirely in executing the FRS. First time he used it against Kakuzu, it fell apart, and Naruto was in danger as result. It is not a fact that he was entirely successful in creating FRS because it wasn't a stable jutsu and required instant hit, which if Naruto did connect would injure his arm and likely render him unable to fight. Like rasengan and chidori before Kakashi got the Sharingan, FRS was incomplete.

    No he would not have. There's no other way to throw the FRS, keep it stable, or make it bigger. Naruto could do that with rasengan because he was still connected to the chakra and controlling it, and he had a clone to help him keep it stable. I only remember FRS being thrown once or twice in Kyuubi chakra mode, but one was miniature. It was easy for Naruto to use FRS because the KYuubi's chakra helped Naruto make the jutsu and keep it stable. FRS in Sage Mode is complete because Naruto was able to keep it stable and expand on its capabilities that he couldn't have done otherwise.


    Nope. Works like a needle, doesn't shred. SM FRS shreds, but normal FRS does not. Naruto received the same kind of damage to his arm, if not less severe.
    Pardon my mistake, but it still doesn't have anything to do to help your argument.

    No, the FRS as a technique was successful but his usage of it wasn't. It would be an enormous accomplishment if he both perfected the jutsu and perfectly executed it in such a short amount of time.

    You contradicted your own argument with Kurama's chakra mode. It allows the same benefits as Sage Mode which is why I'm persistent with my point of view. FRS is a perfect jutsu because it can be executed without Sage Mode or Kyuubi's chakra mode regardless of the risk injury, for the tenth time. It's not the jutsu's fault because a body isn't ready for the level of its power. Plain and simple.

    It's the same thing. FRS and FRS in SM is the same. Oodama FRS can be attributed to SM. I don't think we need to elaborate our opinions any further because they differ at a large scale.

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    Re: YES!!! - The best thing that could happen in Naruto!!

    FRS isn't a perfect jutsu because it's either unstable or can't be held long in normal mode. Naruto had to come up with a dangerous plan to make sure he hit Kakuzu before the FRS dissipated.

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    Re: YES!!! - The best thing that could happen in Naruto!!

    I love the loss of the Kyuubi. Provided it's real. I don't want to get my hopes to far up only to have them crushed with he gets the other half of the Kyuubi or some other craziness; which does not seem at all unlikely to me.

    In my mind, this would be a huge case of it's addition by subtraction. There are no consequences I will not welcome with open arms along with this. The more I think about it the more I like it.

    He could lose the ability spam FRS? I'm putting this in the good things category.

    He could die? Somebody will rub some Dragonballs together and he'll be back in no time.

    His power will just get replaced with something else? As long as that something is ninjutsu-like, I'm calling that a win. I don't want him to suddenly sprout a sharingan or anything like that but if it's that's the tradeoff...so be it.

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    Re: YES!!! - The best thing that could happen in Naruto!!

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    FRS isn't a perfect jutsu because it's either unstable or can't be held long in normal mode. Naruto had to come up with a dangerous plan to make sure he hit Kakuzu before the FRS dissipated.
    Don't know where you got that impression. It's a perfect example of adding a personal scenario to an event. Mixing himself with the clones to hit the target wasn't dangerous, it was clever. And it wasn't because the FRS was unstable or something like that, it was because Kakuzu was careful not to get hit by it.

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    Re: YES!!! - The best thing that could happen in Naruto!!

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    FRS isn't a perfect jutsu because it's either unstable or can't be held long in normal mode. Naruto had to come up with a dangerous plan to make sure he hit Kakuzu before the FRS dissipated.
    Remember when Kakashi couldn't completely master Chidori until he got the Sharingan? That's the same for Naruto, he couldn't completely "master" Rasenshuriken before gaining access to Sage Mode. Basically in Sage Mode, he managed to throw the Rasenshuriken and later he was shown to be able to as well with Kyuubi Chakra Mode, that's where the technique was completely mastered. That's something he couldn't do in Base Mode, though yes I'd agree FRS isn't a "perfect" ( the word perfect is a bit too strong in that context ) while Naruto is using it base mode, not only his arm will suffer from the repercussions of the technique but he's also more prone to miss his target.
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    Re: YES!!! - The best thing that could happen in Naruto!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Roman View Post
    Don't know where you got that impression. It's a perfect example of adding a personal scenario to an event. Mixing himself with the clones to hit the target wasn't dangerous, it was clever. And it wasn't because the FRS was unstable or something like that, it was because Kakuzu was careful not to get hit by it.
    Got it from the manga. It was dangerous because Kakuzu could have gone after the clones again. It was because the FRS was unstable that Naruto had to resort to another way to hit.

    Naruto makes FRS. Tries to hit Kakuzu. Comes so close but fails to hit because FRS falls apart. Naruto gets in trouble and is bailed out by Kakashi and Yamato. Has to find another way to connect FRS so that Kakuzu can't react to it.

    It was never perfect or completed until Sage Mode because FRS was too dangerous. Naruto had to hit FRS before it dissipated, find a way to hit it so that his opponent couldn't dodge an obvious attack, and when he did hit, he got caught up in the attack.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudobito View Post
    Remember when Kakashi couldn't completely master Chidori until he got the Sharingan? That's the same for Naruto, he couldn't completely "master" Rasenshuriken before gaining access to Sage Mode. Basically in Sage Mode, he managed to throw the Rasenshuriken and later he was shown to be able to as well with Kyuubi Chakra Mode, that's where the technique was completely mastered. That's something he couldn't do in Base Mode, though yes I'd agree FRS isn't a "perfect" ( the word perfect is a bit too strong in that context ) while Naruto is using it base mode, not only his arm will suffer from the repercussions of the technique but he's also more prone to miss his target.
    I personally wouldn't consider FRS complete or mastered in base mode solely because he gets hurt. Throwing it just took the completed FRS further, like how Kakashi took chidori further and created raikiri, or how Sasuke took chidori further and added shape manipulation to make it versatile.

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    Re: YES!!! - The best thing that could happen in Naruto!!

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    Got it from the manga. It was dangerous because Kakuzu could have gone after the clones again. It was because the FRS was unstable that Naruto had to resort to another way to hit.

    Naruto makes FRS. Tries to hit Kakuzu. Comes so close but fails to hit because FRS falls apart. Naruto gets in trouble and is bailed out by Kakashi and Yamato. Has to find another way to connect FRS so that Kakuzu can't react to it.

    It was never perfect or completed until Sage Mode because FRS was too dangerous. Naruto had to hit FRS before it dissipated, find a way to hit it so that his opponent couldn't dodge an obvious attack, and when he did hit, he got caught up in the attack.
    FRS wasn't unstable, Naruto's lack of experience in using it was unstable.

    Refer to the first paragraph.

    It was perfected before the Sage Mode. A user only needed a strong body to sustain it. Simple.

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Bradhimself's Avatar
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    Re: YES!!! - The best thing that could happen in Naruto!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Roman View Post
    FRS wasn't unstable, Naruto's lack of experience in using it was unstable.

    Refer to the first paragraph.

    It was perfected before the Sage Mode. A user only needed a strong body to sustain it. Simple.
    Well said. If that were the case then the same could be said about rasengan. Naruto can do them cloneless in certain modes, Doesn't mean the tech isn't complete.
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    Re: YES!!! - The best thing that could happen in Naruto!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bradhimself View Post
    Well said. If that were the case then the same could be said about rasengan. Naruto can do them cloneless in certain modes, Doesn't mean the tech isn't complete.
    Rasengan was always an incomplete tech since the jutsu was created with the intention to add a nature element to it. Is it still devastating? Yes. Is it still an A rank jutsu? Yes. Is it complete? No, since it should be a S Ranked jutsu

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    Re: YES!!! - The best thing that could happen in Naruto!!

    Quote Originally Posted by jiraiyanindo View Post
    Rasengan was always an incomplete tech since the jutsu was created with the intention to add a nature element to it. Is it still devastating? Yes. Is it still an A rank jutsu? Yes. Is it complete? No, since it should be a S Ranked jutsu
    Good point, and point taken. However I was more pointing to the fact that just because a user has to use an unconventional method to execute the technique doesn't mean it's incomplete due to the user's ability.

    Minato made Rasengan, Naruto expanded on it and made Rasenshuriken. 2 techniques exist although one is incomplete. Even though it was intended to be more and has been expanded on, I would called them 2 different versions as opposed to a complete and incomplete technique, Very debatable...
    Last edited by Bradhimself; January 31, 2014 at 07:42 PM.
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