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Thread: Why Juha Bach didn't order to kidnap Urahara?

  1. #16
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member devstauk's Avatar
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    Re: Why Juha Bach didn't order to kidnap Urahara?

    Again i beg to differ, the orb would have eventually seen Aizen as a tool and not a master, basically Aizen peaked we know that and what was happening to him was actually a type of hollowfication, we know for 100% fact that the orb evolved Aizen to the brink of transcendental. But once the orb saw that Aizen's limit was peaked he would of inevitably imploded, the orb was working on its own without much of Aizen mentality, ichigo's intervention was without a doubt calculated by Urahara.

    What your not taking into account is the fact Urahara created the orb in the 1st place, he knew nothing could control it, what Aizen thought and made very clear was that he was the master when in fact the orb was controlling him. All Urahara needed to know was that ichigo had this potential to become something more then just a shinigami, and we know for 100% that urahara knew exactly what ichigo was. Hell even Aizen knew it. Ichigo's last words after the fight was that aizen was searching for someone to fight on par with, Aizen knew Ichigo had hidden potential and kept trying to push and make ichigo reach it, this was subtly hinted at throughout the manga so with ichigo's last words saying 'all aizen wanted was someone to equal him in power' was what Aizen wanted but the orb was after more Urahara himself knew the orb was uncontrolable and banked on it rejecting aizen if it saw someone gain enough power to surpass what it had given aizen. Why else would you create a kido to activate as soon as the transcendental powers have gone without knowing what could happen.
    Last edited by devstauk; January 06, 2014 at 04:11 AM.
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  2. #17
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Lee.J.Baxter's Avatar
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    Re: Why Juha Bach didn't order to kidnap Urahara?

    One possibility for Yhwach not attempting to take down or capture Urahara is actually BECAUSE of his intellect; whilst Urahara more-than-likely doesn't have the power to actually defeat Yhwach, he may certainly have the resources to either learn more about the Vandenreich from the encounter, or even worse place bugs on Yhwach that could potentially reveal his weaknesses and true motives!

    Another strong possibility is that Yhwach actually wants the Shinigami to gain the upperhand against the Sternritter for some reason, perhaps tied in to Haschwalth's balancing capabilities; this may also explain why he attacked the Seireitei, only to flee once the Royal Guard appeared, instead of attempting (and more-than-likely succeeding) to wipe the floor with them. If the Shinigami defeat all of the Sternritter, the resulting imbalance in the war may allow Yhwach to use Haschwalth's ability to easily defeat the Soul King (basically, Yhwach would suffer a major loss, thus giving him a major gain via Haschwalth's ability when he battles the Soul King).
    Predictions
    • Just as Quincies are evolved beings born from Humans, Shinigami are evolved beings born from Hollows.
    • Once Yhwach dies, Ichigo's Quincy powers will disappear and his soul will become unstable, causing the onset of Soul Suicide.
    • Yhwach isn't going to be the final antagonist.

  3. #18
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Why Juha Bach didn't order to kidnap Urahara?

    Quote Originally Posted by devstauk View Post
    Again i beg to differ, the orb would have eventually seen Aizen as a tool and not a master, basically Aizen peaked we know that and what was happening to him was actually a type of hollowfication, we know for 100% fact that the orb evolved Aizen to the brink of transcendental. But once the orb saw that Aizen's limit was peaked he would of inevitably imploded, the orb was working on its own without much of Aizen mentality, ichigo's intervention was without a doubt calculated by Urahara.

    What your not taking into account is the fact Urahara created the orb in the 1st place, he knew nothing could control it, what Aizen thought and made very clear was that he was the master when in fact the orb was controlling him. All Urahara needed to know was that ichigo had this potential to become something more then just a shinigami, and we know for 100% that urahara knew exactly what ichigo was. Hell even Aizen knew it. Ichigo's last words after the fight was that aizen was searching for someone to fight on par with, Aizen knew Ichigo had hidden potential and kept trying to push and make ichigo reach it, this was subtly hinted at throughout the manga so with ichigo's last words saying 'all aizen wanted was someone to equal him in power' was what Aizen wanted but the orb was after more Urahara himself knew the orb was uncontrolable and banked on it rejecting aizen if it saw someone gain enough power to surpass what it had given aizen. Why else would you create a kido to activate as soon as the transcendental powers have gone without knowing what could happen.
    We don't know anything about the orb to actually suggest it would see aizen in any different light depending of events. More so, didn't the manga point out aizen was definitely not going through hollowification? Going through hollowification or any type of it should not result in his powers being beyond others' perception. Urahara never really implied aizen was not in charge of the orb for that matter. The point the manga made was that aizen in the end WANTED to loose his powers. The orb never betrayed aizen nor was there any indication that the orb was trying to take over. If anything the orb did precisely what aizen wanted down to the very end. It gave aizen what he deep down wanted.

    Also, you are forgetting the orb aizen had was not actually the one urahara made. Aizen and urahara created their own orbs independently but neither was able to complete it. Aizen created the orb he had via feeding it urahara's own. I would argue there is plenty neither knows of the orb to begin with. I would also question your idea of the orb making aizen into a puppet. The orb is sentient but why would it actually want to make a puppet out of aizen? You make it sound as if the orb was for whatever reason evil or could benefit from a puppet. The orb is sentient but nothing has ever even mildly implied it is evil or has questionable intentions. If anything I would argue the orb has actually shown to be more of a benevolent entity than an evil one. So far the implication is that the orb has always done what the user and those around him want and we have never seen it actually take anything in return. We have also not seen anyone touched by the orb stricken by irony in such a way that would suggest an evil genie.

  4. #19
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Lee.J.Baxter's Avatar
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    Re: Why Juha Bach didn't order to kidnap Urahara?

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    We don't know anything about the orb to actually suggest it would see aizen in any different light depending of events. More so, didn't the manga point out aizen was definitely not going through hollowification? Going through hollowification or any type of it should not result in his powers being beyond others' perception. Urahara never really implied aizen was not in charge of the orb for that matter. The point the manga made was that aizen in the end WANTED to loose his powers. The orb never betrayed aizen nor was there any indication that the orb was trying to take over. If anything the orb did precisely what aizen wanted down to the very end. It gave aizen what he deep down wanted.

    Also, you are forgetting the orb aizen had was not actually the one urahara made. Aizen and urahara created their own orbs independently but neither was able to complete it. Aizen created the orb he had via feeding it urahara's own. I would argue there is plenty neither knows of the orb to begin with. I would also question your idea of the orb making aizen into a puppet. The orb is sentient but why would it actually want to make a puppet out of aizen? You make it sound as if the orb was for whatever reason evil or could benefit from a puppet. The orb is sentient but nothing has ever even mildly implied it is evil or has questionable intentions. If anything I would argue the orb has actually shown to be more of a benevolent entity than an evil one. So far the implication is that the orb has always done what the user and those around him want and we have never seen it actually take anything in return. We have also not seen anyone touched by the orb stricken by irony in such a way that would suggest an evil genie.
    I agree; it seems as though the Hougyoko, despite possessing a consciousness, is still merely a tool. It basically follows a master who's deemed powerful enough to subjugate it, regardless of whether they're good or evil; after that it manifests its master's desires as long as they have the power to achieve those desires. It's "will" or "consciousness" comes into play in the form of its instincts to protect its master; it takes matters into its own hands in order to do this, forcing transformations upon its master to ensure they survive encounters with opponents (as evidently seen after Aizen underwent his final transformation; the will of the Hougyoko was to not allow a Human to get the better of him).

    This consciousness appears to have also played a part in Aizen's downfall; it refused to serve a master who wasn't worthy to control it.
    Last edited by Lee.J.Baxter; January 06, 2014 at 11:34 AM.
    Predictions
    • Just as Quincies are evolved beings born from Humans, Shinigami are evolved beings born from Hollows.
    • Once Yhwach dies, Ichigo's Quincy powers will disappear and his soul will become unstable, causing the onset of Soul Suicide.
    • Yhwach isn't going to be the final antagonist.

  5. #20
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Why Juha Bach didn't order to kidnap Urahara?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee.J.Baxter View Post
    I agree; it seems as though the Hougyoko, despite possessing a consciousness, is still merely a tool. It basically follows a master who's deemed powerful enough to subjugate it, regardless of whether they're good or evil; after that it manifests its master's desires as long as they have the power to achieve those desires. It's "will" or "consciousness" comes into play in the form of its instincts to protect its master; it takes matters into its own hands in order to do this, forcing transformations upon its master to ensure they survive encounters with opponents (as seen after Aizen underwent his final transformation).
    I would actually even question that. The facts we have regarding the orb so far are the following:

    1.- It has a will of its own
    2.- it can and has granted wishes

    Anything beyond that at this point is actually just speculation, specially things regarding the orb's intentions, its intelligence and its degree of consciousness. We can try to interpret the orb's wish granting however there is actually no way for us to actually contextualize anything about the orb itself. The orb so far has granted wishes all over the place in seemingly many forms. One could argue the orb is submissive and would do anything asked of it but the case can also be made that the orb is infinitely kind and simply grants everything. Or one could speculate that the orb actually gets something out of granting wishes and is simply waiting for the time until it is ready to destroy the world via huge evil laser from the moon. The orb is at large still a mystery to us...

  6. #21
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member devstauk's Avatar
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    Re: Why Juha Bach didn't order to kidnap Urahara?

    I agree with what you said about the orb and what i said was just a speculation of what i saw the orb as, but what the disagreement was is more along the lines that Urahara had no knowledge that Aizen would inevitably loose control of the orb or the orb would no longer see Aizen as its master depending on how you look at it, thing is they both sound like the same thing but in fact have very different implications.

    Urahara created the orb and found out alot about it and choose to hide it because he knew it could not be destroyed or controlled which is stated. They both were trying to do the same thing but Urahara had a change of heart when he found out what it really meant to the subjects, in fact he found this out without really doing much testing (unless we weren't told about who/when/where/how) though Aizen on the other hand didn't care about anyone other then his own goals.

    Aizen thinking he could control it by absorbing it inevitably showed Urahara that he knew next to nothing about it. The fact remains that Aizen was over confident when it come to his own abilities, yes he created the same thing Urahara did but did he really understand what it was and what it was truly capable of, no i don't think so. Urahara on the other hand created it and knew more about it without carrying out any true tests, aizen on the other hand tested it and fueled it with evil intent by creating things that shouldn't have been created. You say Aizen fed his orb Urahara's Orb, one was made with the intention to help better shinigami's the other was created to over throw a linchpin to all creation.

    I suppose we both will undoubtedly have different views about what the orb does, but it doesn't change the fact that Urahara knew more about what the orb was and could do then Aizen did due to one having to do 100years worth of research and testing, the other knew from the start that he had created something uncontrollable, now what the question we should be asking is why they both were summoned or how they both saw the Soul King.

    I'm not saying your wrong about the orb because no one truly knows much about it, but i am saying your wrong about Urahara have dumb luck with what happened to Aizen, it was inevitable that Aizen was going to loose control over the orb eventually.
    Last edited by devstauk; January 06, 2014 at 12:45 PM.
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  7. #22
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Why Juha Bach didn't order to kidnap Urahara?

    Half of that is speculation though. The intention with which the orbs were created was never mentioned or implied to be relevant here. Even if urahara inferred something from using the orb the manga never hinted at it (and by extension at what it could have been). Aizen using the orb was also never said or implied to influence the orb's will either. It was once said usage of the orb deteriorated it but that plot point was seemingly abandoned altogether.

    More importantly, the manga never actually showed aizen losing control of the orb per say. Aizen didn't loose his powers because of anything urahara or ichigo intentionally did or plan for, he lost his powers because the orb reacted to aizen's own wish to be a normal shinigami. There is no evidence whatsoever for us to think the orb even for one microsecond failed to do exactly what aizen wanted. The orb by no means abandoned, betrayed or otherwise turn against aizen, it all invariably came from within aizen. Perhaps the case can be made that the orb was simply subjugated by aizen but only because aizen wished so, not because he actually had strength or knowledge to pull it off. In that regard the assumption here would be not that urahara planned for the almighty orb to reject the measly mortal trying to control it but rather that urahara developed an overly convoluted century old plan which included and accounted for stuff he didn't know and couldn't plan for with the sole purpose of having aizen willingly give up everything he had worked for for centuries right at the very end when acquiring it was literally a matter of wanting something vaguely different from not loosing his godly powers.

  8. #23
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Notak's Avatar
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    Re: Why Juha Bach didn't order to kidnap Urahara?

    Tessai said that the Hougyoku felt to him like it was trying to suffocate his very existence, or something along those words. He started sweating too I think. Maybe he just reacted to its large reiatsu though, like Yamamoto's reiatsu would make people feel.

  9. #24
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Why Juha Bach didn't order to kidnap Urahara?

    Quote Originally Posted by Notak View Post
    Tessai said that the Hougyoku felt to him like it was trying to suffocate his very existence, or something along those words. He started sweating too I think. Maybe he just reacted to its large reiatsu though, like Yamamoto's reiatsu would make people feel.
    I thought that was an anime only thing. I checked the chapters online and no such mention of that exists. At least when urahara showed the orb to tessai he made no comments whatsoever. IIRC the manga has never actually said the orb has reiatsu of its own either. Aizen was able to imbue reiatsu into the orb however there is no mention of the orb itself having reiatsu.

  10. #25
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Notak's Avatar
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    Re: Why Juha Bach didn't order to kidnap Urahara?

    I only started reading Bleach after that point so yeah it's probably just an anime thing. I have always assumed it has some sort of reiatsu though since it made Aizen possess more of it.

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