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Thread: Byakuya & Kenpachi ~ Rivalry, opposite characters, yet similar role in story.

  1. #16
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member BaddAzzKenpachi74's Avatar
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    Re: Byakuya & Kenpachi ~ Rivalry, opposite characters, yet similar role in story.

    Quote Originally Posted by Razh View Post
    Don't know who was downplaying it.

    .
    Oh I'm not talking about here, I'm talking about whenever a versus thread comes up concerning him, most of the times when members have him up against fast characters like Byakuya or Bankai Ichigo they talk about Kenpachi being speedblitz and all that and how he isn't much in the speed department.

    And no Kenpachi has never shown a shunpo at all, so its not known if he even has it, but considering its a basic shinigami art that most are probably taught at the Shino academy I doubt someone like Kenpachi who has no formal training in the Shinigami arts other than Kendo has learned it.

    Live for battle, enjoy every minute, death is the price u pay for a good battle, live to kill, no fear.
    by Kenpachi Zaraki
    . ("Discuss This" http://discussthis.freeforums.org/index.php

  2. #17
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ninjabot's Avatar
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    Re: Byakuya & Kenpachi ~ Rivalry, opposite characters, yet similar role in story.

    Quote Originally Posted by BaddAzzKenpachi74
    Big Kenpachi fan here, and I must say I would welcome a Kenpachi with a bankai and slight character change in a heartbeat.

    As evident by his fight with Unohana, his outlook on fighting is already starting to change, and he even is able to speak to his sword now which is something he has been wanting since the Ichigo fight, which was also a change in character for him since before the Ichigo fight he did not give 2 shits about his sword.

    Its not like this has not be forshadowed before, why else do you think he wanted to learn the name of his sword in the first place?

    He wanted to be able to utilize the full power of his sword, and him getting a bankai doesn't mean he will do a complete 180 as far as he personality goes.

    He could still fight like a maniac berserker with a bankai or a awakened shikai for that matter, we do not know what powers his sword holds, for all we know it may compliment his current fighting style nicely.

    The only thing that would turn me off is if he started to want to learn shunpo or kidou and other outside abilities, but that sword is a part of him, there is nothing wrong with him realizing its full potential in my opinion.
    Are you sure you don't just want him to be as strong as possible for the sake of these arena threads? If he had all the power ups he could gain (shikai and bankai and full control over his sealed potential), then his fights wouldn't necessarily still go the way they usually do because as you said, he wants to grow stronger for a reason... why would he want to grow stronger, just so he could hold that power back the way he used to?

    Quote Originally Posted by Razh
    While there's really no evidence suggesting Zaraki can use Shunpo, he was shown that he can move fast, Shunpo or not.
    http://www.mangareader.net/94-563-14...apter-109.html

    You're considering that fast?

    Compared to whom? The reason Kenpachi is often said to be blitzed by the faster captain class opponents in the arena threads is because his fastest feats of speed were back during the SS arc and against barely captain class opponents (Ichigo couldn't even shunpo at that point I don't think). People keep thinking that his showing against Tousen and Komamura is proof that he has captain class speed, but speed didn't help him in those fights. Reaction time did. He remained immobile throughout the entirety of the battles, tanking blows in order to counter attack afterwards. That is the WRONG way to fight someone like Grimjoww, Byakuya, Soi Fon, or Ichigo.

    Then there's this canon instance in the manga:
    http://www.mangapanda.com/94-36557-2...apter-379.html
    http://www.mangapanda.com/94-36557-2...apter-379.html

    There's no way of telling who was closer to Ichigo when this happened, but the fact of the matter is they both ran after Yammi and Byakuya arrived so much earlier that he had time to cast a Hadou which staggered him. Byakuya admits to arriving first as well. Now, if Byakuya, is this much faster than in a sheer foot race, then what would Soi Fon do in a foot race? Or Bankai Ichigo, who blitzed Byakuya outright? Or Pantera Grimjoww? Now take away the foot race aspect and put them in an honest to goodness fight to the death and Kenpachi gets blitzed by either of these foes... and all of the ones actually faster than the ones in this list.

    Though I was trying to avoid turning this into a match. This argument should be in a versus thread.
    Last edited by ninjabot; January 13, 2014 at 09:41 PM.

  3. #18
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Razh's Avatar
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    Re: Byakuya & Kenpachi ~ Rivalry, opposite characters, yet similar role in story.

    Compared to whom indeed. Since, as you may have noticed, I was never comparing Kenpachi to anyone, even though this thread is about comparing him and Byakuya. He's fast enough to appear behind his opponent instantaneously, or to block Tesla's attack in the last second when he was going to punch Ichigo on the ground.

    Just stating cold facts. Does he get hurt a lot because he's slow, or the fault likes in his slacky way of fighting in which he's purposely handicaping himself in order for fight to last longer? It's debatable at the least.

    Heh
    Prediction: Dragon will appear on Fishman Island!
    Challenge Gilferbeast!!!


    (thank you pupil "fuck you razh" -> made me lol)

  4. #19
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member ChaoticKen's Avatar
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    Re: Byakuya & Kenpachi ~ Rivalry, opposite characters, yet similar role in story.

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    Though I was trying to avoid turning this into a match. This argument should be in a versus thread.
    And yet you helped turn it into one. Funny how that works.

    Back to the topic at hand, I've never really thought about the Kenpachi / Byakuya dynamic, even though the two captains have seen plenty of screen time together. Well, as much as you can when you're dealing with a manga like Bleach, which has tons and tons of characters that aren't really too developed besides one or two personalities traits. But yeah, they do seem like two characters who play off of each other very well, and among the captains of Soul Society, they're probably the ones who've had the most interactions with Ichigo (barring Aizen and those who ceased to be captains before the start of Bleach, like Urahara).

    The Noble / Savage dynamic does seem like where all the contrasts begin, to be sure. As stated in the first post, Byakuya is really high nobility, whereas Kenpachi amounts to street trash. Byakuya has proper learning, an actual last name, family, etc. Kenpachi got his creds the old-fashioned way, just took the name of the place he was born, and his only family is Yachiru, who he just sorta... picked up somewhere. A bunch of contrasts that are apparent.

    Spoiler: How They Fight show


    Spoiler: What They Fight With show


    Spoiler: Their Resume show


    Spoiler: Dealing With Rules show


    Spoiler: Their Squads show


    There's probably more that could be said but I'm looking at this thing I'm written and wondering why I put so much effort in a manga where the third best character is about to get killed by Renji of all fucking people.

    On a last note, I do wonder how Kenpachi vs Tsukishima would have played out. Byakuya doesn't think it would have gone in Kenpachi's favor, stating...

    "Zaraki Kenpachi is even less suited. His only wish is the thrill of battle. Since your ability allows you to win with one strike, it is unfavorable for him to face you."

    But as we've seen in Byakuya's own fight against Tsukishima, that's not true at all. Byakuya had his sword and himself cut, but he still killed Tsukishima in the end by coming up with a brand new technique on the spot. And furthermore, he does (or claim to) feel Kenpachi's thrill for battle during his fight with Tsukishima, though.

    "Battle is something to prepare for, and to wage at peak condition, or so I thought. However, today, for the first time, I have experience the joy of standing knee-deep in the fleeting moments of insanity during battle. Thank you. I have enjoyed this battle." (chapter 472)

    That's the kind of shit Kenpachi specializes in. A big part of him is that he doesn't have a strict fighting style, since nobody taught him properly (one day lesson with Old Man Genocide aside, heh that rhymes). Could Tsukishima insert himself into Kenpachi's past and become someone that Kenpachi wouldn't ever hurt? Who even qualifies for that? The way I see it, Kenpachi is so battle crazed that he'll even battle his allies. Hell, after the end of the Soul Society arc, dude was raring to fight against Ichigo despite the two not being enemies anymore. Even if Tsukishima somehow became someone that Kenpachi was so indebted to, I don't think his Memory Insert could overtake Kenpachi's lust for battle, just like it failed to overcome Byakuya's gratitude towards Ichigo.

    Finally, what's also hilariously ironic is that Byakuya vs Tsukishima happens roughly around the same time Kenpachi had his "Fucking boring" utter wipeout of Muscled Mustache Butler (not to be confused with Muscled Mustache Wrestler, the third best character in Bleach).

  5. #20
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member BaddAzzKenpachi74's Avatar
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    Re: Byakuya & Kenpachi ~ Rivalry, opposite characters, yet similar role in story.

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    Are you sure you don't just want him to be as strong as possible for the sake of these arena threads? .

    I could ask you the same thing about Byakuya.

    But I merely gave my opinion on why it would not be so out of character for him to achieve shikai and bankai.

    As I pointed out this has been forshadowed since the Ichigo fight and him wanting to learn the name of his sword, it was only matter of time in my opinion.

    He could still go wild and crazy with a shikai and bankai, especially if both match his fighting style which I think they will.

    Live for battle, enjoy every minute, death is the price u pay for a good battle, live to kill, no fear.
    by Kenpachi Zaraki
    . ("Discuss This" http://discussthis.freeforums.org/index.php

  6. #21
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ninjabot's Avatar
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    Re: Byakuya & Kenpachi ~ Rivalry, opposite characters, yet similar role in story.

    Quote Originally Posted by BadAzzKenpachi74
    I could ask you the same thing about Byakuya.
    Could you though?

    I stated in an earlier post in this very thread that I don't want his power to be too great because it would ruin the type of character Byakuya's supposed to be. If he could beast through his foes effortlessly then he wouldn't need to rely on cunning or speed or his versatile bankai. His fights would be boring as all hell.

    As for shikai and bankai matching his fighting style, let's not get ahead of ourselves. Almost every bankai we've seen has altered the fighting style of the wielder. Soi Fon goes from speedy ninja to immobile one-shot nuke silo. Byakuya goes from speedy close range fighter to speedy long range fighter. Ikakku goes from battle loving spearman to battle loving spearman who's spear has to warm up before he can reach his full strength... and also loses it's defensive power along the way. Ichigo goes from average speed to super speed. Mayuri goes from a pointy sword that paralyzes you to a giant baby that eats you. Komamura goes from giant sword to... giant. Who shares injuries with himself.

    I think the only bankai that does the exact same thing as it's shikai is Hyourinmaru. And all of the other listed ability changes make for changes in combat strategy. Different fighting styles.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChaoticKen
    But as we've seen in Byakuya's own fight against Tsukishima, that's not true at all. Byakuya had his sword and himself cut, but he still killed Tsukishima in the end by coming up with a brand new technique on the spot. And furthermore, he does (or claim to) feel Kenpachi's thrill for battle during his fight with Tsukishima, though.
    To be fair, plot induced stupidity was used to prevent Tsukishima from simply rewriting Byakuya's past into one where he was Byakuya's best friend, or the true captain commander, or the true head of the Kuchiki clan. Instead all he used it for was to learn the secrets of his fighting style. That's why he was only able to win by doing something that was completely outside of his fighting style. Could Kenpachi be expected to realize this and do the same? With the aid of plot, sure, because that's what it took to let Byakuya win the fight too, lol.


    Quote Originally Posted by Razh
    Compared to whom indeed. Since, as you may have noticed, I was never comparing Kenpachi to anyone, even though this thread is about comparing him and Byakuya. He's fast enough to appear behind his opponent instantaneously, or to block Tesla's attack in the last second when he was going to punch Ichigo on the ground.
    Still, that kinda doesn't mean anything. Being fast enough to appear behind his opponent? It matters who the opponent is. Simply showing that he did it without acknowledging why he was capable of doing it leaves FAR too much room to misinterpret what actually happens. Case in point? Yammi is a slow giant, but he managed to punch Kenpachi into a mountain because he wasn't paying attention to him. I could totally leave the part out about Kenpachi not paying attention and simply say "Yammi was fast enough to take Kenpachi off guard and knock him away." It's only half of what happens. It leaves room for fudging with facts. It's not right.

    Quote Quote:
    Just stating cold facts. Does he get hurt a lot because he's slow, or the fault likes in his slacky way of fighting in which he's purposely handicaping himself in order for fight to last longer? It's debatable at the least.
    He gets hurt a lot because he allows his opponents to hit him, because he enjoys the thrill of battle, which includes the pain and blood. Does that in any way guarantee that if he DID want to fight seriously that his speed would somehow become more remarkable than it has been shown to be? Of course not. It is debatable, but only barely, thanks to the lackluster speed feats Kenpachi has shown.

    Though admittedly, what I posted was mostly in response to BadAzzKenpachi74, in order to clear up the "Kenpachi gets speed blitzed" thing. It's not that we're saying he's slow. We're saying he's average. Which automatically makes him severely disadvantaged against characters shown to have supremely above average speed (Byakuya, Ichigo, Soi Fon, Grimmjow). It IS debatable how fast Kenpachi is. It is NOT debatable as to whether these characters are significantly faster than he. Not by a long shot.

  7. #22
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member MBVC's Avatar
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    Re: Byakuya & Kenpachi ~ Rivalry, opposite characters, yet similar role in story.

    Talking about speed, the highest tier includes Ichigo, Stark, Ulq and 1 RG so far, the other are snails more or less.

    I realized that I am merely a conscience programmed into a game.

  8. #23
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ninjabot's Avatar
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    Re: Byakuya & Kenpachi ~ Rivalry, opposite characters, yet similar role in story.

    ^Compared to the fastest, sure. But doesn't that just go to prove my point even further? If the characters you listed make the characters I listed look like snails, what does that make Kenpachi look like?

    Also, you forget to add Yoruichi and Soi Fon to your list.

  9. #24
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: Byakuya & Kenpachi ~ Rivalry, opposite characters, yet similar role in story.

    Speed only matters if you have the power to kill your opponent with the blows that they can't react to. Given Zaraki's massive power boost, no one who is fast enough that he himself can't land a blow on has the power to hurt him (outside of MAYBE Ichigo).

    Kenpachi could very well come out being the strongest full blooded Shinigami in existence now that Yama is dead. His rivalry with Byakuya is now pointless to talk about given the fact that he was always making himself weaker than he actually was.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

  10. #25
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member jiraiyanindo's Avatar
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    Re: Byakuya & Kenpachi ~ Rivalry, opposite characters, yet similar role in story.

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    Speed only matters if you have the power to kill your opponent with the blows that they can't react to. Given Zaraki's massive power boost, no one who is fast enough that he himself can't land a blow on has the power to hurt him (outside of MAYBE Ichigo).

    Kenpachi could very well come out being the strongest full blooded Shinigami in existence now that Yama is dead. His rivalry with Byakuya is now pointless to talk about given the fact that he was always making himself weaker than he actually was.
    Great point. Unohana said that kenpachi had been making himself weaker subconsciously so he could enjoy fights. Ever since the first real contested fight he had(against Unohana) he had been handicapping himself.

    So, the question is just how strong will kenpachi be now that he knows the name of the zanpakuto and presumably shikai abilities? I would put him above byakuya at this point but byakuya is also getting the renji upgrade in the royal realm so who knows. Safe bet is they will both come out incredibly stronger than before and still somewhat tied with each other to keep the rivalry going.

  11. #26
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member FetherMan's Avatar
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    Re: Byakuya & Kenpachi ~ Rivalry, opposite characters, yet similar role in story.

    What I find interesting about both Kenpachi and Byakuya is that Kubo has kept them relevant throughout the entire manga series, plus, they both played an important part in Ichigo's development as far as skill and power go. Renji for example, was the first shinigami Ichigo ever fought and Kubo, poetically gave him a proper role and upgrade in this final arc.

    I think, will definitely see improvements Kenpachi and Byakuya. They are a yin and yang to themselves and their rivalry stems from simple competition amongst Captains. And it was cool, that these two killed off Yammy's punk a**.

    "I did battle with ignorance today and ignorance won".

  12. #27
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: Byakuya & Kenpachi ~ Rivalry, opposite characters, yet similar role in story.

    Quote Originally Posted by jiraiyanindo View Post
    Great point. Unohana said that kenpachi had been making himself weaker subconsciously so he could enjoy fights. Ever since the first real contested fight he had(against Unohana) he had been handicapping himself.

    So, the question is just how strong will kenpachi be now that he knows the name of the zanpakuto and presumably shikai abilities? I would put him above byakuya at this point but byakuya is also getting the renji upgrade in the royal realm so who knows. Safe bet is they will both come out incredibly stronger than before and still somewhat tied with each other to keep the rivalry going.
    Byakuya's boost will be different from Renji's though. I don't think Byakuya has anything more to learn about his Zanpakuto like Renji did. So while his reiatsu will increase, along with his body (although I think Renji's body is physically stronger/tougher to begin with so that boost won't be as much) I don't think we will see the same kind of large power increase.

    Rather, I think Byakuya's kido will become that much more powerful, and thus that might put him near Kenpachi. But I still believe Kenpachi will be like Yama in terms of his distance in raw power from everyone else. Byakuya's increase in power will just allow his already high level skills to be that much more effective.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

  13. #28
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ninjabot's Avatar
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    Re: Byakuya & Kenpachi ~ Rivalry, opposite characters, yet similar role in story.

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi
    Speed only matters if you have the power to kill your opponent with the blows that they can't react to.
    And power only matters against foes you're quick enough to hit or counter. It doesn't matter now thanks to the huge power increase, but back during the SS arc there was a massive list of people Kenpachi didn't stand a chance against (the most glaring and stupidly obvious, at the very top of said list, being Byakuya).

    Quote Quote:
    Given Zaraki's massive power boost, no one who is fast enough that he himself can't land a blow on has the power to hurt him (outside of MAYBE Ichigo).
    Reiatsu amount doesn't have a lot to do with one's speed when you consider that there are speed increasing techniques out there that are needed to push one beyond their regular movement speed, and that Kenpachi doesn't have a variation of any of these. Leroux was so fast Kenpachi would've never touched him, and the gap in power between the two of them is HUGE in Kenpachi's favor, making reiatsu moot. And the Quincy all have Hienrenkyaku, which is like their form of Shunpo.

    Quote Quote:
    Kenpachi could very well come out being the strongest full blooded Shinigami in existence now that Yama is dead. His rivalry with Byakuya is now pointless to talk about given the fact that he was always making himself weaker than he actually was.
    ...that's not gonna happen anymore than Byakuya showing up and becoming the strongest shinigami in history. Kenpachi, just like Byakuya, isn't an important enough character to be that powerful. It'd be like Shikamaru instantly becoming strong enough to go toe-to-toe with Madara. Not likely, due to the lack of importance of said character to the story. It's entirely unlikely that Ichigo's gonna end the manga as not the strongest character.

    It's also important to remember that even though Kenpachi was suppressing himself since childhood, every time his eyepatch came off he was dipping into that reservoir of power, although not completely. It is as of yet not confirmed how much of a power increase could come from him using all of the power he was holding back, or even if he is capable of using all of it.

  14. #29
    MangaHelper 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Impossibility's Avatar
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    Re: Byakuya & Kenpachi ~ Rivalry, opposite characters, yet similar role in story.

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    It doesn't matter now thanks to the huge power increase, but back during the SS arc there was a massive list of people Kenpachi didn't stand a chance against (the most glaring and stupidly obvious, at the very top of said list, being Byakuya).
    Back in the SS arc there were very few individuals that would have had much problem with taking on Kenpachi, most of the VCs should've been able to take him. To this day I don't understand how Kenpachi was so ridiculously weak in his performance against Ichigo. The supposed rivalry between Kenpachi and Byakuya was a joke at that point.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member BaddAzzKenpachi74's Avatar
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    Re: Byakuya & Kenpachi ~ Rivalry, opposite characters, yet similar role in story.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Back in the SS arc there were very few individuals that would have had much problem with taking on Kenpachi, most of the VCs should've been able to take him. To this day I don't understand how Kenpachi was so ridiculously weak in his performance against Ichigo. The supposed rivalry between Kenpachi and Byakuya was a joke at that point.

    Lol wow really?

    You think most of the Vice Captains could have taken him back then?

    Dear lord, did you watch the battle he had against Koma and Tousen?

    That alone proves that most of the VCs would get pwned by him since at the time only 3 actually had a bankai and would have had to rely on shikai to beat him.

    Considering he pwned 2 captains at the same time (with his eyepatch on) who where both using Shikai of their own you would pretty much have to be saying that most of the VCs in SS could take them as well.

    If you don't like Kenpachi than thats fine, but don't go shitting on his power to such a large degree to say that most VCs could take him.

    One thing this series has reiterated on numerous occasions is that the power difference between Captains and Lieutenants is pretty big.

    Ichigo pretty much could not do shit to Kenpachi after he had just finished beating Renji not to long ago.

    It was not until he got Zangetsu to lend ALL of its power to him that he was able to BARELY manage a draw pretty much.
    Last edited by BaddAzzKenpachi74; February 02, 2014 at 01:10 PM.

    Live for battle, enjoy every minute, death is the price u pay for a good battle, live to kill, no fear.
    by Kenpachi Zaraki
    . ("Discuss This" http://discussthis.freeforums.org/index.php

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