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Thread: Byakuya & Kenpachi ~ Rivalry, opposite characters, yet similar role in story.

  1. #31
    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Impossibility's Avatar
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    Re: Byakuya & Kenpachi ~ Rivalry, opposite characters, yet similar role in story.

    Quote Originally Posted by BaddAzzKenpachi74 View Post
    Lol wow really?

    You think most of the Vice Captains could have taken him back then?

    Dear lord, did you watch the battle he had against Koma and Tousen?

    That alone proves that most of the VCs would get pwned by him since at the time only 3 actually had a bankai and would have had to rely on shikai to beat him.

    Considering he pwned 2 captains at the same time (with his eyepatch on) who where both using Shikai of their own you would pretty much have to be saying that most of the VCs in SS could take them as well.

    If you don't like Kenpachi than thats fine, but don't go shitting on his power to such a large degree to say that most VCs could take him.

    One thing this series has reiterated on numerous occasions is that the power difference between Captains and Lieutenants is pretty big.

    Ichigo pretty much could not do shit to Kenpachi after he had just finished beating Renji not to long ago.

    It was not until he got Zangetsu to lend ALL of its power to him that he was able to BARELY manage a draw pretty much.
    And that was two different Kenpachis. If one considers Kubo's justification for Kenpachi's ever-wandering power level, Zaraki would've been much stronger when he faced up against the two Captains. And even so, their eventual loss to Zaraki was as much of a function of his ability as it was their arrogance. Kenpachi won his battles because his opponents take him on his terms or are uniquely suited to lose to him. I mean, can anyone imagine Kenpachi winning against any of the Espada that wasn't named Nnoitra or Yammi. This isn't to say that Zaraki is weak, it's just to point a glaring weakness that he would appear to have than seemingly no one has bothered to exploit when it's something that everyone should be able to do. Of course, that became increasingly difficult as time passed, but the earliest iteration of Zaraki lacked the overwhelming power that he came into as the manga progressed. As for the mention of Renji v Ichigo, Renji lost for the same reason Ikkaku did, they decided to conveniently forget the skills available to them. I don't see anything that would stop the VCs from using Shunpo, Kido, and long-range attacks to defeat Kenpachi at the level he showed against Ichigo.

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  3. #32
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member BaddAzzKenpachi74's Avatar
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    Re: Byakuya & Kenpachi ~ Rivalry, opposite characters, yet similar role in story.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    And that was two different Kenpachis. If one considers Kubo's justification for Kenpachi's ever-wandering power level, Zaraki would've been much stronger when he faced up against the two Captains. And even so, their eventual loss to Zaraki was as much of a function of his ability as it was their arrogance. Kenpachi won his battles because his opponents take him on his terms or are uniquely suited to lose to him. I mean, can anyone imagine Kenpachi winning against any of the Espada that wasn't named Nnoitra or Yammi. This isn't to say that Zaraki is weak, it's just to point a glaring weakness that he would appear to have than seemingly no one has bothered to exploit when it's something that everyone should be able to do. Of course, that became increasingly difficult as time passed, but the earliest iteration of Zaraki lacked the overwhelming power that he came into as the manga progressed. As for the mention of Renji v Ichigo, Renji lost for the same reason Ikkaku did, they decided to conveniently forget the skills available to them. I don't see anything that would stop the VCs from using Shunpo, Kido, and long-range attacks to defeat Kenpachi at the level he showed against Ichigo.
    But your forgetting the HUGE ammount of reatsu that Kenpachi has always had since he was revealed.

    So huge that Ichigo could not even CUT him.

    The same Ichigo who had just beat 2 of the more powerful Lts in SS.

    Unless your going to tell me that the other VCs have WAY more reatsu than them?

    Live for battle, enjoy every minute, death is the price u pay for a good battle, live to kill, no fear.
    by Kenpachi Zaraki
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  4. #33
    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Impossibility's Avatar
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    Re: Byakuya & Kenpachi ~ Rivalry, opposite characters, yet similar role in story.

    Quote Originally Posted by BaddAzzKenpachi74 View Post
    But your forgetting the HUGE ammount of reatsu that Kenpachi has always had since he was revealed.

    So huge that Ichigo could not even CUT him.

    The same Ichigo who had just beat 2 of the more powerful Lts in SS.

    Unless your going to tell me that the other VCs have WAY more reatsu than them?
    Yet, the result was a draw, and Kenpachi was wounded on multiple occasions. That same Ichigo defeated Renji and Ikkaku because they chose not to utilise the tools available to them. That same Ichigo would go on to be absolute fodder for Byakuya. And I've never suggested that the VCs have more reiatsu than Kenpachi, what would that have to do with anything? Simply having more reiatsu than your opponent doesn't hand you the win.

  5. #34
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ninjabot's Avatar
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    Re: Byakuya & Kenpachi ~ Rivalry, opposite characters, yet similar role in story.

    Quote Originally Posted by BadAzzKenpachi74
    But your forgetting the HUGE ammount of reatsu that Kenpachi has always had since he was revealed.

    So huge that Ichigo could not even CUT him.
    This was a version of Ichigo who only had shikai, and even then only had access to a small amount of Zangetsu's power because he hadn't learned to work together with him yet. And even with that much of a handicap, Kenpachi couldn't beat him. And he removed his eyepatch, so none of that "holding back" bull.

    Quote Quote:
    The same Ichigo who had just beat 2 of the more powerful Lts in SS.

    Unless your going to tell me that the other VCs have WAY more reatsu than them?
    Reiatsu=/=strength. Not to mention... http://www.mangapanda.com/94-570-9/b...apter-116.html "This guy's spirit pressure is as strong or even stronger than that Zaraki guy."

    As for Kenpachi "fighting" Komamura and Tousen at the same time, that never happened. Komamura never resorted to Bankai and had no injuries. Their fight was little more than a spat. And during he and Tousen's actual fight, the only reason he managed to defeat him is because Tousen somehow felt decapitating Kenpachi while he was blinded wasn't a good idea.
    Last edited by ninjabot; February 02, 2014 at 08:55 PM.

  6. #35
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member BaddAzzKenpachi74's Avatar
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    Re: Byakuya & Kenpachi ~ Rivalry, opposite characters, yet similar role in story.

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    This was a version of Ichigo who only had shikai, and even then only had access to a small amount of Zangetsu's power because he hadn't learned to work together with him yet. And even with that much of a handicap, Kenpachi couldn't beat him. And he removed his eyepatch, so none of that "holding back" bull.


    .
    Loosen your panties a bit man and read the chapter again.

    it was obvious Kenpachi was holding back up until Ichigo almost died and had to get all of Zangetsu's power.

    And he did not remove the eyepatch until AFTER Ichigo got the huge boost from Zangestsu.

    Before that Ichigo wasn't able to do nothing against Kenpachi in the slightest, I dare you to go back and show me a page where before Ichigo got that huge boost in power from Zangetsu he was able to give Kenpachi a fight.

    otherwise don't throw the word "bull" around so carelessly.

    Kenpachi sliced through his sword like butter and pretty much almost killed Ichigo, where the hell you got the idea that Ichigo was still only working with a small amount of Zangetsu's power is beyond me, guess the mind sees what it wants to see.

    But your free to go back and find the pages and prove me wrong.

    Because as the page here shows,
    http://www.mangapanda.com/94-567-9/b...apter-113.html

    Zangestu gave Ichigo ALL of his power for that short period of time, before that he was nothing to Kenpachi and as I said before your free to pull up a page and prove me wrong here.
    Last edited by BaddAzzKenpachi74; February 02, 2014 at 09:28 PM.

    Live for battle, enjoy every minute, death is the price u pay for a good battle, live to kill, no fear.
    by Kenpachi Zaraki
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  7. #36
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ninjabot's Avatar
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    Re: Byakuya & Kenpachi ~ Rivalry, opposite characters, yet similar role in story.

    Quote Originally Posted by BadAzzKenpachi74
    Loosen your panties a bit man and read the chapter again.

    it was obvious Kenpachi was holding back up until Ichigo almost died and had to get all of Zangetsu's power.

    And he did not remove the eyepatch until AFTER Ichigo got the huge boost from Zangestsu.
    How does that change anything? Wasn't the end result that Ichigo at his full strength, and Kenpachi at his full strength, fought, and it was a draw? Yes. That's what happened. And this was still not a bankai version of Ichigo either. This means that patchless, serious Kenpachi is weaker than Shikai Ichigo because Ichigo had already suffered severe injuries from Kenpachi and then got back up before fighing him to a draw. If they both started that fight as strong as they were at the end, Ichigo would've defeated Kenpachi soundly.

    Quote Quote:
    Before that Ichigo wasn't able to do nothing against Kenpachi in the slightest, I dare you to go back and show me a page where before Ichigo got that huge boost in power from Zangetsu he was able to give Kenpachi a fight.
    So wait, your proof that Kenpachi is a "BadAzz" is the fact that he managed to kick Ichigo's ass while he had no access to the full amount of his power?

    You're making my argument for me, lol.

    Quote Quote:
    Kenpachi sliced through his sword like butter and pretty much almost killed Ichigo, where the hell you got the idea that Ichigo was still only working with a small amount of Zangetsu's power is beyond me, guess the mind sees what it wants to see.
    You apparently stopped reading the fight after Kenpachi knocked Ichigo down the first time, from cutting through his sword. That was before he was using the full amount of Zangetsu's power proven by the fact that he had to start fighting Shirosaki to regain the right to use Zangetsu.

    And then what he says here: http://www.mangapanda.com/94-567-9/b...apter-113.html http://www.mangapanda.com/94-567-10/...apter-113.html

    They didn't power up until AFTER Ichigo got back up from having his sword "cut through like butter".

    At the end when Ichigo started using the full amount of his power (against Kenpachi's full power too) he cut through Kenpachi's sword was broken, and he fell. It took everything he had to finish a foe who was already severely injured. http://www.mangapanda.com/94-567-18/...apter-113.html

    I call it a draw because Ichigo was knocked out, but the fact that Kenpachi's sword was broken is proof that he was in worse condition.

    You think because Kenpachi while holding back was able to beat Ichigo who wasn't at full strength somehow makes him a beast, and that's your prerogative. But the true test of strength is who comes out on top when both are going all out. And the fact that Kenpachi could only muster up a draw against an opponent who wasn't even Bankai level is proof that if he had fought any other captain in a serious fight he simply wouldn't measure up. He did against Tousen, but that's only because Tousen toyed with him the entire fight.

  8. #37
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member BaddAzzKenpachi74's Avatar
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    Re: Byakuya & Kenpachi ~ Rivalry, opposite characters, yet similar role in story.

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    snip.

    For fucks sake, did you even read my previous post?

    Guess I was right about you, your mind only sees what it WANTS to see.

    I never disputed the fact that he managed a draw with Ichigo in the end, if you had actually read my previous post here you would know that

    Quote Quote:
    It was not until he got Zangetsu to lend ALL of its power to him that he was able to BARELY manage a draw pretty much.
    But nooooooo, you have to be mr right huh?

    My whole point earlier with Impossibility was not challenging his fight with Ichigo, but proving that Kenpachi would not get beat by the majority of Soul Society's lieutenants.

    I used Ichigo as a measuring stick BEFORE he got the boost from zangestu and had just beat Renji and Ikkaku to prove my point.\

    You then replied with this unnecessary post

    Quote Quote:
    his was a version of Ichigo who only had shikai, and even then only had access to a small amount of Zangetsu's power because he hadn't learned to work together with him yet. And even with that much of a handicap, Kenpachi couldn't beat him. And he removed his eyepatch, so none of that "holding back" bull.
    Which had nothing to do with my point I was making towards Impossibility and NOT YOU.

    Not to mention you where wrong since Kenpachi was easily destroying that Ichigo that only had small amount of Zangetsu's power pretty easily.

    And did NOT remove his eyepatch until IChigo had drawn out ALL of Zangetsu's power.

    I know how that fight ended, I called it a draw in my previous post, I NEVER said otherwise and yet your here trying to convince me of some shit I never denied in the first place.

    As I said you did not even bother to read my posts beforehand when replying to them, otherwise you would have known that my point was not to make Kenpachi out as a beast for beating a weak Ichigo, but to prove that he was able to pwn somebody who had just beat 2 lieutenants not to long before hence why I did not agree with Impossibility's point from earlier about most of the lieutenants in SS being able to take Kenpachi.

    But hey, you had to find something to rage at me over right?

    What the hell is your problem?

    Do you love Impossibility or something?
    Last edited by BaddAzzKenpachi74; February 03, 2014 at 12:03 PM.

    Live for battle, enjoy every minute, death is the price u pay for a good battle, live to kill, no fear.
    by Kenpachi Zaraki
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  9. #38
    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Impossibility's Avatar
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    Re: Byakuya & Kenpachi ~ Rivalry, opposite characters, yet similar role in story.

    Quote Originally Posted by BaddAzzKenpachi74 View Post
    Do you love Impossibility or something?
    Um, probably not. I'd say we've disagreed rather extensively over the years, but at least we discuss rather than going on rants about the rights of others to comment or other posters. You decided to respond to my comment that was a response to ninjabot's, so I see little reason for you to take umbrage with his decision to respond to yours. It's hard to believe that two reasoned responses was all it took to get such a response from you. And since you've decided to mention my points once again, I'm going to point out that I've already addressed everything, ninjabot clarified and took the time out to provide manga links for support.

    That being said, your argument amounts to Ichigo used all of the power he could take from Zangetsu at the time to take on Kenpachi, but that power was weak to put it bluntly compared to what Ichigo would later utilise. That same Ichigo was absolute fodder to Byakuya, and by every right should've been the same against most of SS's elite, if everyone didn't decide to become useless when facing him. Much in the same way that Kenpachi's opponents decide to take him on in close-quarters, on his terms, regardless of whether the alternative would be the obviously better option. The only thing is that you've shown that an Ichigo in shikai, unable to draw out his power, had difficulty cutting Kenpachi. You haven't shown what that has to do with the VCs or the Captains who have no such problem and possess a skillset far more extensive than Ichigo at the time; primarily Shunpo and Kido. What would stop a VC from using Shunpo, Kido, and long-range attacks to bring down that iteration of Kenpachi?

  10. #39
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ninjabot's Avatar
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    Re: Byakuya & Kenpachi ~ Rivalry, opposite characters, yet similar role in story.

    Quote Originally Posted by BadAzzKenpachi74
    My whole point earlier with Impossibility was not challenging his fight with Ichigo, but proving that Kenpachi would not get beat by the majority of Soul Society's lieutenants.
    Which you failed at making, because you kept resorting to what Kenpachi was capable of doing to Ichigo while Ichigo wasn't at full strength. Impossibility's (and my own) point to you is that the VCs and other captains all have abilities and combat options greater than what Ichigo had in his employ, and Ichigo STILL fought Kenpachi to a draw. If he can do it with less strength and abilities than they can, then they can do it too, if not faster and with less difficulty.

    You're right that Kenpachi managed to defeat Ichigo easily BEFORE Ichigo was on equal footing, but that just proves our point even further.

  11. #40
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member BaddAzzKenpachi74's Avatar
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    Re: Byakuya & Kenpachi ~ Rivalry, opposite characters, yet similar role in story.

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    .

    You're right that Kenpachi managed to defeat Ichigo easily BEFORE Ichigo was on equal footing, but that just proves our point even further.
    The same Ichigo who was able to beat 2 vice Captains beforehand.

    Unless your going to set here and tell me that the other vice Captains can pwn Renji and Ikkaku just as easily as Kenpachi did Ichigo before the powerup than you have no freaken point.

    Same goes for Impossibility.

    Live for battle, enjoy every minute, death is the price u pay for a good battle, live to kill, no fear.
    by Kenpachi Zaraki
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  12. #41
    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Impossibility's Avatar
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    Re: Byakuya & Kenpachi ~ Rivalry, opposite characters, yet similar role in story.

    Quote Originally Posted by BaddAzzKenpachi74 View Post
    The same Ichigo who was able to beat 2 vice Captains beforehand.

    Unless your going to set here and tell me that the other vice Captains can pwn Renji and Ikkaku just as easily as Kenpachi did Ichigo before the powerup than you have no freaken point.

    Same goes for Impossibility.
    Firstly, Ikkaku isn't a VC, he's a third seat. And I've already pointed out that Ichigo defeated both Renji and Ikkaku because they, or Kubo, decided not to utilise their skillset against him. It's like everyone forgot Shunpo or Kido, or just common sense. And once again, what is there to suggest that a VC using Shunpo, Kido, and long-range attacks couldn't bring down that iteration of Kenpachi who has shown little interest in such things or the ability to handle such things?

  13. #42
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member BaddAzzKenpachi74's Avatar
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    Re: Byakuya & Kenpachi ~ Rivalry, opposite characters, yet similar role in story.

    whatever, I'm done, nothing your saying is getting through to me and its obvious nothing I'm saying is getting through to you guys so why waste any more of our time?

    I'm out.

    Live for battle, enjoy every minute, death is the price u pay for a good battle, live to kill, no fear.
    by Kenpachi Zaraki
    . ("Discuss This" http://discussthis.freeforums.org/index.php

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