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Thread: Asspulls, plotholes, things you just don't get, and things that Kishi just hasn't gotten to yet. <3

  1. #436
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member jiraiyanindo's Avatar
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    Re: Asspulls, plotholes, things you just don't get, and things that Kishi just hasn't gotten to yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    He was holding back. Being sick or blind isn't an excuse when at the end of the fight, despite being so close to death, low on chakra, and almost blind, Itachi pulled out Susano'o and only used it defensively. While Itachi holding back a lot may be an exaggeration, we can at least agree that we was holding back in some way, and he still managed to push Sasuke to the brink while faring better at the end.
    Yeah Itachi was definitely holding back.

    Later, it was shown that Itachi, just like sasuke, could do partial transformations of his susanoo too.

    Imagine if he had susanoo wrapped around him the whole fight or just the rib cage version of susanoo and still used his offensive abilities with that as sasuke learned to do later....that would've been an easy win against a pre MS sasuke.

  2. #437
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member badluckartist's Avatar
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    Re: Asspulls, plotholes, things you just don't get, and things that Kishi just hasn't gotten to yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ero-Sanji View Post
    Well, like I said not actual techniques but the concept. How and why should that have been confusing?
    Kishi seriously flubbed the entire concept of elemental manipulation. Something so integral to combat should've been fleshed out in Part I not only for the reader's sake, but so that the entire village system makes a BIT more sense. If it's as painfully easy as holding a slip of paper to determine your chakra nature, every ninja should have had to do it at day one of academy. Especially considering how much fodder we see using generic elemental jutsu. It's criminally inefficient to wait until they graduate and become chuunin/jounin level just to give them a heads up on how that stuff works.

    It reminds me of the whole 'why didn't they just let Naruto know who his parents were' debacle. Kishi just hadn't figured that part of the story out... and then put off explaining it for entirely too long.

    ::EDIT:: Y'know what, I'm going to assume that the ninja villages do give out elemental papers ASAP but Naruto was skipping school that day. Yup.

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  4. #438
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: Asspulls, plotholes, things you just don't get, and things that Kishi just hasn't gotten to yet.

    Well, back in Part I Kakashi was shocked that Sasuke was able to use ninjutsu or have enough chakra to do that despite being genin. I'm guessing they preferred young genins not care about that sort of stuff because they weren't at that level yet, while a genius like Sasuke had Sharingan to help him.

  5. #439
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    Re: Asspulls, plotholes, things you just don't get, and things that Kishi just hasn't gotten to yet.

    On topic of Chakra nature determining papers:

    May be they don't use it until the ninja is able to manipulate chakra well enough to pass from the paper ???
    Or may be like what M3J said they don't use it until they become a bit more mature and experienced and they start learning Big Jutsus

  6. #440
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity KiSwordsman's Avatar
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    Re: Asspulls, plotholes, things you just don't get, and things that Kishi just hasn't gotten to yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    It doesn't. Killerbee helped because Naruto was a good guy, and Bee had plenty of time.

    It doesn't say Sakumo took care of Kakashi a lot, just that Kakashi looked up to Sakumo. Sakumo doesn't need to be an active parent for Kakashi to look up to him. But Sakumo committed suicide and left Kakashi alone, which is way worse than what Kakashi did as he was never related to Naruto in any way.

    But why Kakashi? Why should he take care of Naruto? He's not Naruto's parent, godfather, or in any way related to Naruto. The only one with less obligation was Bee, and he had the time to train Naruto. Kakashi seems to be single, so he'd be busy. You can say all ninja parents should be called out, but we have seen mainly the fathers go on missions while the mothers stayed home, and in many cases the fathers were usually in the village, like Shikaku and Chaoza.

    Kakashi is not married or has a child. He can get away with being busy, especially when he has no obligation to take care of another child, who should have been taken care of by Jiraiya or Hiruzen, being the jinchuuriki.
    Pretty sure recent chapters support Kakashi's father taking care of him. Given the fact that the guy was taking Kakashi to school. Him taking care of Kakashi a lot wasn't the argument. The argument was him taking care of Kakashi period. Which would mean that Kakashi could have done the same regardless of how important or busy he was. However, he did not because he was not obligated to as we have agreed. Despite being the "last" student of the kids father. However, the point still stands that there have been less people obligated than Kakashi, yet they still took initiative. Bee wasn't the only one, Iruka was less obligated as well. And despite the fact that we have seen those situations with ninja parents, we've also seen single ninja parents take care of kids as well. (Kiba's mother)

    However, it is correct that Jiraiya should have taken care of him. He failed miserably in that regard. Three years of "training" does not make up for that. However, I've already taken a giant dump on Jiraiya as a character. And Hiruzen being the leader, surely had the resources to provide Naruto with a good life as a kid. But the whole point of bringing any of this up, was to point out how stupid him lecturing Jiraiya really was.

    Quote Quote:
    Maybe. Haven't seen otherwise.

    Eh, don't care if he gets points or not here. It wasn't a serious point anyway.

    I brought up Kiba's mother in regard to this. So from that, we know not all ninja families have the same practices. Apparently Kiba's father is not around so his mother picks up the slack.

    Quote Quote:
    Valley of the End. Sasuke was trying to kill Naruto, Naruto was trying to hurt Sasuke with rasengan.
    And at that point, Sasuke had left the village. So the second time is fair game. You even stated that Sasuke was trying to kill Naruto. And let's not forget that the first time the whole argument is based on "who whipped it out first." That hardly gives Kakashi backing.


    Quote Quote:
    Why are we just talking about Part I? Kakashi still helped and trained Naruto after becoming his sensei. Hell, Kakashi said he and Sasuke were similar, so after the massacre, why didn't Kakashi take Sasuke in? Why not raise him to look past revenge? If Sasuke had a role model or someone to look up to earlier, he could have changed his mind about revenge way before he and Naruto were put in the same team.

    Stop bringing up him lecturing Jiraiya, we agree that Kakashi had no right and was a hypocrite for doing so. Especially when Naruto isn't the kind of person that Sasuke is.
    Because that was my whole point, that point where Kakashi was trying to lecture Jiraiya is what pissed me off. At the time, he was being a hypocrite as we both agreed on. However, when we found out that he knew of Naruto's heritage, the utter audacity of his actions at the time were made that much worse. It was literally the whole point of this. Regardless of what he did afterwards, that was the main point that I brought up that infuriated me about Kakashi. Which is why I kept bringing up the lecturing.

    Also, why didn't he take care of Sasuke? You tell me. Given the fact that Sasuke was the last Uchiha and an asset to the leaf, finding someone to care for him would seem like a priority to me. Just like finding someone to take care of the Jinchuriki of the village would seem like a priority given the fact that you don't want the Jinchuriki growing up and hating the village. Given the fact that the Jinchuriki's own godfather failed in that regard. The student to the Jinchuriki's father would seem like the best choice for both cases. But like we both agreed no obligation. So we have one becoming a criminal and the other overcoming adversity and blind hatred on his own merit. Also, the latter being a major reason that the former would eventually return to the side of good.

    Quote Quote:
    How was it thanks to Jiraiya? Jiraiya taught him summoning and rasengan, but that wouldn't have been possible if Kakashi didn't teach them how to climb trees. I don't know if Ebisu did teach Naruto how to walk on water, as Naruto had difficulty solely due to the seal Orochimaru put on top of his. Kakashi still laid down the basics with the tree walking exercise and enrolling the trio in the chuunin exams, where they grew more than they would have doing missions.

    Oh, you're comparing Iruka lecturing to Kakashi lecturing. I actually agree with you here, I guess.
    And if Jiraiya could teach him those things, then he could also teach him tree climbing. Kakashi laid down the basics but so could anyone. That's like saying that I owe a lot to my first grade math teacher if I become a professor in calculus. Ebisu "laid down the basics" as well, just because Naruto had trouble learning it due to outside interference, doesn't mean that Ebisu didn't teach him.
    Last edited by KiSwordsman; June 01, 2014 at 12:57 PM.

  7. #441
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted gnut's Avatar
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    Re: Asspulls, plotholes, things you just don't get, and things that Kishi just hasn't gotten to yet. <3

    when da'fuk we goin to find out about senjus(where are/were they)/uzumakis(being wiped out)/namikazes(who where they)and where does oro/jiraiya's families fall in?

    enough uchiha already....background/characters/supreme jutsus.

    can we get some background on ashura's descendants?
    Last edited by gnut; June 13, 2014 at 04:17 PM.
    But the stink that filled the privy gave ample evidence that the oft-repeated jape about his father was just another lie. Lord Tywin Lannister did not, in the end, shit gold

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  9. #442
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member
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    Re: Asspulls, plotholes, things you just don't get, and things that Kishi just hasn't gotten to yet. <3

    Can somebody go through the whole manga and make a list of things supposedly written on that Uchiha tablet? I, for one, can´t grasp how much information and what information that measly menu order booklet holds.

  10. #443
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Exodi's Avatar
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    Re: Asspulls, plotholes, things you just don't get, and things that Kishi just hasn't gotten to yet. <3

    Quote Originally Posted by Master OZ View Post
    Can somebody go through the whole manga and make a list of things supposedly written on that Uchiha tablet? I, for one, can´t grasp how much information and what information that measly menu order booklet holds.
    The wiki covers it fairly decently.

    More specifically, though:

    1. You need Sharingan to read it. MS is needed to read moer of it. Rinnegan to read even more.
    2. Killing someone dear to you awakens MS
    3. Eternal MS requires another pair of MS
    4. MS can be used to control the Kyuubi
    5. Combining Senju and Uchiha DNA can result in the Rinnegan
    6. The story of Kaguya and the Shinju
    7. the stuff about Infinite Tsukuyomi

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  12. #444
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member 1337 haxor's Avatar
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    Cool Well...

    Anyone can call Black Zetsu on besting Aizen for the worst asspull of the century but given Kishimoto's drive to expose his entire mythology before the series ends then I can see it was not bad at all.

    Madara was a plot device connecting the present situation to the foundations of Konoha and the tale of the Sage of the Six Paths, without him there wouldn't be a conflict between the Uchiha and the village or someone to connect the lineages of the Sage to the reappearance of the Rinnegan and all the craziness it brought forth.

    Yet the plot had stalled on Madara, all knowledge of history, the preparations for this war and his impossible exploits could be traced back to that single crazy Uchiha reading the world domination guide on a stone written to dissuade it.

    Kishimoto didn't asspull the Zetsu betrayal, we only got stunned that it came from someone who we thought was the will of Madara but his eventual betrayal and downfall was foreshadowed by several manga inconsistencies.

    First of all, how Madara expected to become Jinchuuriki of a beast that a guy far stronger than him sealed so hard to avoid the end of the world as we know it?

    From the vibes of it, we had a clear idea that bringing back the Ten-Tails would bite back the ass of anyone who did it and we all expected the damn thing to turn on Madara and Obito sooner or later.

    Second of all, if Black Zetsu was supposed to watch over his creator's resurrection then why didn't he forced Nagato to revive him right off the bat?

    Perhaps the most baffling hole in Madara's plan was how the people entrusted with his revival could live on for years outside his control and exposed to external factors whereas his supposed will did nothing to hasten his come back when he alone would be more effective than all of Akatsuki.

    Third of all, who was that which Hashirama noticed in the Valley of the End after killing Madara?

    Many theories surfaced as to who was this misterious figure, was it Madara who split using Muu's technique? Was it a still living Izuna? All we knew is that someone was there watching the battle and that figure would play an important role in explaining Madara's survival.

    Fourth of all, why did the Ten-Tails, who was supposedly mindless, began to grow angry at Naruto for resembling the Sage?

    Why was the information, given by Kurama and the tablet of the Sage, incorrect about the beast having no feelings or ideals? The probability of it growing intelligent and screwing over Madara and Obito became even more apparent.

    Fifth of all, why did Obito struggled so much with the beast while Madara got it smoothly when they became it's Jinchuuriki?

    Amongst all of Madara's impossible stunts we believed it was just the case of him being a lot better than Obito but that didn't make sense if we consider the beast was hard to control even for Hagoromo.

    Sixth of all, why was Zetsu absent during the whole battle against the Ten-Tails?

    If that was meant to be the final battle then Madara would have called to every asset at his disposal to get rid of the Alliance, there were still parts of the White Zetsu Army hidden (especially Yamato Guruguru) who could have disrupted the efforts to fight the Ten-Tails not to mention Madara could have called to Black Zetsu at any time for him to subdue Obito and make the latter perform Rinne Tensei.

    The build up for a greater force ousting Madara had been going for over 200 chapter and all we lacked was a name for it, now we know it was Kaguya.

    We cannot call an asspull that Kaguya came by just 40 chapters ago to throw Madara under the bus when the role filled by her character had been foreshadowed years before her appearance.

    This all comes together when we look at the plot from Zetsu's perspective.

    First of all, the Ten-Tails was under Kaguya's control all along so bringing it back would just serve her goals regardless of other parties involved.

    It didn't matter if Madara or Obito could control it because Zetsu knew the damn thing would go and take back chakra for Kaguya's revival, hence things wouldn't go awry for him like it could for Madara and Obito.

    Second of all, it didn't matter who would revive the Ten-Tails and cast Infinite Tsukuyomi as long as it got done.

    Nagato could revive the beast and become it's Jinchuuriki for all that Black Zetsu cared or Obito could do it so long as it happened, even if they both died and lost the Rinnegan it wouldn't matter so long as the Juubi was revived first because it would still absorb back Kaguya's chakra.

    Heck, why do you think Zetsu recorded Sasuke's and Naruto's fight? It was because he knew that as Indra's and Ashura's reincarnations he could use them for back up if both Nagato and Obito screwed up before the Juubi was back.

    This is why Akatsuki was so keen on getting Sasuke in their hands with Obito even mentioning they should synch him with the Mazou, he was another back up for the Moon Eye Plan.

    Yet Obito's inner struggle and Sasuke's madness made them unreliable to wield the Rinnegan and carry out the Moon Eye Plan by themselves so Zetsu had Kabuto bring back Madara, whose body he would never find otherwise, just in case another betrayal like Nagato was in tow.

    Third of all, now we know it was Black Zetsu who watched over Madara and Hashirama.

    This series is an endless loop of parallels and it turns out that Zetsu watched the original battle at the Valley of the End just as he did with that of Naruto and Sasuke, he was scooping out for transmigrant candidates to use in Kaguya's revival.

    Fourth of all, Kaguya was behind the Shinju from the get go, it was she who got pissed at remembering Hagoromo and we simply didn't knew about her at the time.

    The reason why nobody knew about the intelligence behind the Ten-Tails was because the information regarding it's true origins was unknown to the Sage himself and Black Zetsu had tampered with the goddamn tablet.

    Fifth of all, Obito got rejected because he wasn't sure he wanted to carry out the plan whereas Madara got accepted from the start for being hell bent on it.

    Kaguya was trying to kill Obito until his desire to revive Rin either overpowered her, he overpowered Black Zetsu and death itself thinking of her, or she came to the conclusion his love for Rin would lead him to complete the plan when push came to shove.

    So long as the person becoming the Juubi's Jinchuuriki followed the will of Kaguya, she would let them do as they pleased with the Ten-Tails and Madara being fanatically devoted to the Moon Eye Plan made him the perfect pawn willing to cooperate with all she said in order to activate the Moon Eye Plan.

    Sixth of all, Madara was never in control of the Zetsu forces from the beggining so they were planning out their next move according to how the battle against the Ten-TailS played out.

    So long as the Ten-Tail was alive and moving towards Infinite Tsukuyomi, they didn't have to do nothing but wait for the idiot who cast the Jutsu to come down to the ground before possessing him to revive Kaguya.

    If nobody became it's Jinchuuriki, then the beast would simply kill and absorb the chakra from everyone in the same fashion as it tried against Hagoromo and Hamura instead of casting IT.

    The problem came when Obito was defeated and the Ten-Tail was turned back into the Gedo Mazou, this risked setting back the plan for decades if they couldn't get a Rinnegan user to revive the Juubi quickly as Sasuke was years away from the Rinnegan and his allegiance to them was questionable.

    Thus Black Zetsu acted fast and revived Madara just as he planned to do if Obito and Sasuke failed to fulfill their intended roles, not just that but he called towards every Zetsu available to show up and face off against the alliance to prevent them from pulling another tug of war which could rip the Bijuu out of the Ten-Tails again.

    Madara followed his part perfectly, he wasted no time in retrieving the Bijuu and reviving the Juubi whereas Naruto and Sasuke were put out of commission making it impossible for the plan to fail.

    The only thing Black Zetsu hadn't anticipated was Hagoromo intervening directly and giving Naruto and Sasuke his chakra to stop Madara.

    The moment they got back and started overpowering the Jinchuuriki of the Ten-Tail was the moment Kaguya got tired of standing on the shadows and decided to throw in her weight aswell.

    Thus she made Madara absorb the three and hurry up to get back his left eye for the sake of casting the Infinite Tsukuyomi whilist Zetsu ensured that Obito would not destroy the last piece needed to complete the plan.

    Once Madara safely retrieved his eye and cast the Infinite Tsukuyomi, he was no longer needed. In fact, Black Zetsu realized that letting Madara fight Naruto and Sasuke instead of outright reviving Kaguya could risk them "converting" Madara like they did for Nagato and Obito so he acted fast again to prevent the possibility of Madara releasing IT and ruining the plan for another millenia.

    When we take into account Black Zetsu's conspiracy, a lot of of otherwise stupid plot elements suddenly start making much more sense because they had been accounted for the mastermind not being Madara.

    What can really be hated about all this is the pacing at which it was carried out, the last part of Zetsu's millenia old plan was carried out in less than two days of war with the Infinite Tsukuyomi and Kaguya's revival taking place only at the very last minutes of it.
    Last edited by 1337 haxor; June 22, 2014 at 11:51 PM.
    Captain Mashima and Admiral Kishimoto give your ships one big fat F*** YOU ALL!

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