Not a member? Register now!
Announcements
Like us on Facebook, follow us on Twitter! Celebrate another year with MH and read our yearbook.
Manga News: Check out this week's new manga (9/22/14 - 9/28/14).
Forum News: Visit new sections for Nisekoi and Kingdom!
Translations: One Piece 761 by cnet128 , Bleach 597 (2) , Gintama 511 by kewl0210
New Reply
Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 1 2 3
Results 31 to 43 of 43

Thread: Rebecca won her block with skill or luck or both?

  1. #31
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Anduren's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Country
    United States
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    547
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Rebecca won her block with skill or luck or both?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spam286 View Post
    ...I keep asking people to stop claiming the 'fact' that Rebecca would have lost against Cavendish if not for Hakuba as a basis for the argument that she was lucky to win. It is not a fact because it did not happen and we will never know what would have happened because what happened happened instead. Using something that didn't happen as an argument in a debate about what did happen is dumb.
    Aren't you convoluting the facts here? Saying she won because of plot is basically saying it happened because the story went that way regardless of her skill. This is just a roundabout way of saying she got lucky without actually admitting it. What I see as "dumb" is people actually thinking that plot armor is an actual skill that can be attributed to a character just so they don't have to say that circumstances played a large part in the progression of the story.

  2. #32
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Spam286's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Macclesfield
    Country
    United Kingdom
    Age
    24
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    174
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Rebecca won her block with skill or luck or both?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anduren View Post
    Aren't you convoluting the facts here? Saying she won because of plot is basically saying it happened because the story went that way regardless of her skill. This is just a roundabout way of saying she got lucky without actually admitting it. What I see as "dumb" is people actually thinking that plot armor is an actual skill that can be attributed to a character just so they don't have to say that circumstances played a large part in the progression of the story.
    You have misread my argument. I'm saying that I don't think it's reasonable to assume Cavendish would have beaten Rebecca if not for Hakuba and so using that as an argument to conclude that Rebecca's win was lucky doesn't work. You might disagree with that, but I'm bored of people taking it as given when it didn't happen so we can't know.

  3. Like 1 Member(s) likes this post
  4. #33
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Anduren's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Country
    United States
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    547
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Rebecca won her block with skill or luck or both?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spam286 View Post
    You have misread my argument. I'm saying that I don't think it's reasonable to assume Cavendish would have beaten Rebecca if not for Hakuba and so using that as an argument to conclude that Rebecca's win was lucky doesn't work. You might disagree with that, but I'm bored of people taking it as given when it didn't happen so we can't know.
    Don't get me wrong With all due respect, you're argument is irrelevant to the actual question that is in the topic of the thread. It doesn't matter if Rebecca would've won or lost based on something that didn't happen (Cavendish not staying asleep). The question is if her win was based on luck or skill or both.

    There's absolutely nothing wrong with being of the opinion of either or both but its kinda insulting to a person's intelligence when someone says their opinion is backed by manga as fact while another's isn't simply by saying the testimony of Character X is canon and the testimony of Character Y doesn't count. This is just bias based on subjective reasoning.

    IF: there's no way to say that she could have lost if Cavendish didn't stay asleep,
    THEN (by the same logic): there's no way to say that she could have won if Cavendish woke up.

    so what you said here:

    Quote Originally Posted by Spam286 View Post
    ...I'm saying that I don't think it's reasonable to assume Cavendish would have beaten Rebecca if not for Hakuba...
    doesn't really hold up as an argument either if by the same breath you say:

    Quote Originally Posted by Spam286 View Post
    It is not a fact because it did not happen and we will never know what would have happened because what happened happened instead.
    Saying that just because something that was possible didn't happen, and therefore discussing that possibility is dumb is just a way to shut down debate without having to seriously consider that possibility even simply for the sake of discussion.

  5. #34
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Spam286's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Macclesfield
    Country
    United Kingdom
    Age
    24
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    174
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Rebecca won her block with skill or luck or both?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anduren View Post
    Don't get me wrong With all due respect, you're argument is irrelevant to the actual question that is in the topic of the thread. It doesn't matter if Rebecca would've won or lost based on something that didn't happen (Cavendish not staying asleep). The question is if her win was based on luck or skill or both.

    There's absolutely nothing wrong with being of the opinion of either or both but its kinda insulting to a person's intelligence when someone says their opinion is backed by manga as fact while another's isn't simply by saying the testimony of Character X is canon and the testimony of Character Y doesn't count. This is just bias based on subjective reasoning.

    IF: there's no way to say that she could have lost if Cavendish didn't stay asleep,
    THEN (by the same logic): there's no way to say that she could have won if Cavendish woke up.

    so what you said here:



    doesn't really hold up as an argument either if by the same breath you say:



    Saying that just because something that was possible didn't happen, and therefore discussing that possibility is dumb is just a way to shut down debate without having to seriously consider that possibility even simply for the sake of discussion.
    I'm not trying to shut down discussion, just pointing out that it isn't a fact that Rebecca would have lost. If people actually wanted to debate it they would maybe suggest why they think she would have, but they haven't been doing that. New people are just arriving to throw in the exact same argument based on the exact same presupposition. Hence why I'm getting bored of it.

    My issue is that people are talking as if they know things that they can't possibly know because they didn't happen.

  6. #35
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Anduren's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Country
    United States
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    547
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Rebecca won her block with skill or luck or both?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spam286 View Post
    My issue is that people are talking as if they know things that they can't possibly know because they didn't happen.
    I agree with that and it goes both ways. But I think you're still not addressing the main issue here. It doesn't matter if she "would have" won or not or how it "could have" happened. The actual fact is that she DID win and the question is if she won because of skill, luck, or both. Saying that she won and it doesn't matter if she could have won or lost if X or Y did or didn't happen is irrelevant. Instead, based on what actually DID happen, would you say it was purely skill? purely luck? or both? That is what really matters.

  7. #36
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Spam286's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Macclesfield
    Country
    United Kingdom
    Age
    24
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    174
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Rebecca won her block with skill or luck or both?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anduren View Post
    I agree with that and it goes both ways. But I think you're still not addressing the main issue here. It doesn't matter if she "would have" won or not or how it "could have" happened. The actual fact is that she DID win and the question is if she won because of skill, luck, or both. Saying that she won and it doesn't matter if she could have won or lost if X or Y did or didn't happen is irrelevant. Instead, based on what actually DID happen, would you say it was purely skill? purely luck? or both? That is what really matters.
    Skill. She dodged Hakuba and was the only one that did. Sabo said it wasn't luck, Doflamingo said it was, but Sabo's comment is backed up by the panels where we see Rebecca notice Hakuba and move. Doflamingo's comment isn't backed up by anything. (It could also be argued that Doflamingo has a reason to downplay Rebecca in that scene because he's in the middle of gloating to her granddad, but even if that wasn't the case Sabo's account matches what we actually see far more than Doflamingo's.)

    The whole rest of the argument comes in when people say that it was lucky that Hakuba showed up in the first place because otherwise Rebecca didn't stand a chance. That's what I've been arguing against.

  8. #37
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Anduren's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Country
    United States
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    547
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Rebecca won her block with skill or luck or both?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spam286 View Post
    Skill. She dodged Hakuba and was the only one that did. Sabo said it wasn't luck
    This much I agree with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spam286 View Post
    ...Doflamingo said it was [luck]... Doflamingo's comment isn't backed up by anything. (It could also be argued that Doflamingo has a reason to downplay Rebecca in that scene because he's in the middle of gloating to her granddad, but even if that wasn't the case Sabo's account matches what we actually see far more than Doflamingo's.)
    This I take issue with. The whole "Rebecca won because Cavendish was still asleep" IS a possible reason for why Doflamingo attributed her win to luck. Saying he was just trying to gloat is as baseless as saying there is no way to know because of what didn't happen because its also an assumption. The panels also show Rebecca looking at Cavendish sleeping like a baby after she managed to get back up on her feet which lead to her flashback where she tries to make sense of what happened. A person would have to selectively ignore and downplay the actual events shown in the manga to claim this didn't happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spam286 View Post
    The whole rest of the argument comes in when people say that it was lucky that Hakuba showed up in the first place because otherwise Rebecca didn't stand a chance. That's what I've been arguing against.
    What I've seen most people (who say Rebecca won partly due to luck) claim is that Rebecca was lucky Hacuba/Cavendish stayed asleep after knocking everybody to the ground... not that Hacuba showed up in the first place.

    Saying that she survived because of skill and won because of luck (I think) is fairly accurate and consistent with both what "Sabo" said and Doflamingo said.

  9. #38
    MangaHelper 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Syphin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Country
    Australia
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    376
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Rebecca won her block with skill or luck or both?

    But surviving in the Block battles = winning. Rebecca's skill allowed her to survive which in turn caused her to win as she survived. Trying to separate skill and luck doesn't really make sense in this situation because it was her skill along with some luck that helped her to win. Rebecca's Block battle works like the other battles in One Piece where skill and luck are intricately linked together.

    Rebecca was fortunate the circumstances turned out the way they did, but she didn't merely win just because of luck, it is equally connected to her skill as well.

    Rebecca is "lucky" that Cavendish/Hakuba is so "unlucky" and Cavendish/Hakuba is "unlucky" that Rebecca is so "lucky".

  10. #39
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Anduren's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Country
    United States
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    547
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Rebecca won her block with skill or luck or both?

    Quote Originally Posted by Syphin View Post
    But surviving in the Block battles = winning. Rebecca's skill allowed her to survive which in turn caused her to win as she survived. Trying to separate skill and luck doesn't really make sense in this situation because it was her skill along with some luck that helped her to win. Rebecca's Block battle works like the other battles in One Piece where skill and luck are intricately linked together.
    The two bolded statements you made contradict each other because in one you say she won purely out of skill while in the other you say she won because of both skill and luck. Herein lies the problem... you can't have it both ways (skill alone AND skill & luck). If you admit that luck played a part in her winning then your 1st bolded statement is not accurate.

  11. Thanks 1 Member(s) thanked this post
  12. #40
    MangaHelper 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Syphin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Country
    Australia
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    376
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Rebecca won her block with skill or luck or both?

    Yeah sorry about that, should have spent some more time checking for inconsistencies. I am not arguing that Rebecca won in the way she did solely through skill because that clearly is against what Oda has conveyed. 'Luck'/fortunate circumstances played a part in her victory, especially in the way it was achieved, along with her skill and speed.

    Adjusted the statement I made to reflect my view point more accurately:

    Quote Originally Posted by Syphin View Post
    Rebecca's skill allowed her to survive which in turn along with fortunate circumstances ending the battle there caused her to win as she survived
    Last edited by Syphin; January 28, 2014 at 11:27 PM.

  13. #41
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Anduren's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Country
    United States
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    547
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Rebecca won her block with skill or luck or both?

    @Syphin
    No need to apologize I probably have the most trouble articulating my thoughts around these forums. Though I have to say not many people have the maturity to accept faults so I have to commend you on that! Wish more people participated in civil discussions around here like you do.

  14. #42
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Spam286's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Macclesfield
    Country
    United Kingdom
    Age
    24
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    174
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Rebecca won her block with skill or luck or both?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anduren View Post
    This much I agree with.



    This I take issue with. The whole "Rebecca won because Cavendish was still asleep" IS a possible reason for why Doflamingo attributed her win to luck. Saying he was just trying to gloat is as baseless as saying there is no way to know because of what didn't happen because its also an assumption. The panels also show Rebecca looking at Cavendish sleeping like a baby after she managed to get back up on her feet which lead to her flashback where she tries to make sense of what happened. A person would have to selectively ignore and downplay the actual events shown in the manga to claim this didn't happen.



    What I've seen most people (who say Rebecca won partly due to luck) claim is that Rebecca was lucky Hacuba/Cavendish stayed asleep after knocking everybody to the ground... not that Hacuba showed up in the first place.

    Saying that she survived because of skill and won because of luck (I think) is fairly accurate and consistent with both what "Sabo" said and Doflamingo said.
    I would like to apologise for being stubborn about this. I've realised now where my issue lies with the whole thing. You are of course right that Rebecca was lucky that Hakuba fell asleep/Cavendish stayed asleep. You're purely arguing the answer to the question and you're right about it.

    My issue is that the question was asked at all. As an analogy, imagine you use amazing parkour skills to escape a collapsing building onto an adjacent building. Are you lucky that the adjacent building does not also collapse? Yes. But is it actually relevant to what happened? No. Does it detract from the feat you performed in the first place? No.

    See, my problem is that most of the luck crowd aren't just arguing that Rebecca was lucky, they're using that fact as some kind of proof that the skill element of her win wasn't worth anything because of it. This is why I've been reluctant to admit what is obvious in that Rebecca was lucky Cavendish fell back to sleep, in the same way that Luffy was lucky Don Chinjao wasn't stronger, in the same way that Bartolomeo was lucky the King Punch wasn't enough to break his barrier, in the same way Burgess was lucky one of the contestants in his block didn't turn out to be Kaido in a leopard hat, in the same way that we're all lucky every day that something bad fails to happen.

  15. Like 1 Member(s) likes this post
  16. #43
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Anduren's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Country
    United States
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    547
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Rebecca won her block with skill or luck or both?

    @Spam286
    Definitely, Rebecca was likely the 2nd most skilled character in that block (besides Cavendish) which is why she was still able to get back on her feet after he attacked everybody in sight. Anyone who says that it was purely luck that got her the win isn't giving her enough credit. Like Syphin said, luck still plays a large part in almost every battle and situation in One Piece.

    Spoiler show


    Regarding your parkour analogy, even if you get out of a collapsing building alive, if the place you escape to gets you killed, then your luck has just run out. This doesn't mean you're not skilled; just that you got unlucky despite your skill.

New Reply
Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 1 2 3

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts