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Thread: Yuha Bach's power, the possibilities

  1. #16
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Yuha Bach's power, the possibilities

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Quincies are neglecting arrows. Name one Sternritter who actually used arrows during an invasion. Kirge in HM did, SR fighting Kyoraku used something similar (he had guns, though). They use swords, throwing knives, Zanpakutos, machine guns, hand-to-hand. Arrows? NOONE. And even if Kirge did use arrows, where is his bow? Didn't see any.

    Yes, his power is distributing his soul. But this power WOULDN'T give him Quincy powers that he has. Unless he gave those powers to Quincy, who shouldn't exist, and get it back to become father of all Quincies. He has that ability AND Quincy powers. Noone said his Quincy powers are just his soul distributing. If so, his Quincy power letter shouldn't come from his other power.

    But I think his letter is simple. Like... "All". A for All, A as in Arrow/Archery (I haven't seen another Quincy archer for a while, have you?) for Ishida.
    Well, wandenreich has definitely deviated from using a bow and arrow although to be fair we have seen a number of them use the holy arrow in at least a different form. They don't keep the bow but they do keep the basic ability, just in a different form. Kirge did have a bow though. Well, he didn't have the string thingy however plenty of the bows ishida have used don't seem to have that either. At least its a bowlike as some of the stuff ishida has used in the series. It also depends on which examples of its use you see.

    I am not sure I get your point here. Other power? So juhabach would be a hybrid? The manga has perhaps some more things to explain about juhabach however I don't think there is any real evidence that he has something other than the ability to distribute his soul around.... What you said which did caught me of guard is your idea that his quincy powers are not innate to begin with.... Why would we think that? I would have thought his quincy powers were innate and the soul splitting thing was his ability. There is no reason for us to think juhabach is anything but quincy as far as I can tell. I doubt he could father anything but quincy for that matter. If he is a hybrid then his descendants would also have to be whatever juhabach is....

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    Re: Yuha Bach's power, the possibilities

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Well, wandenreich has definitely deviated from using a bow and arrow although to be fair we have seen a number of them use the holy arrow in at least a different form. They don't keep the bow but they do keep the basic ability, just in a different form. Kirge did have a bow though. Well, he didn't have the string thingy however plenty of the bows ishida have used don't seem to have that either. At least its a bowlike as some of the stuff ishida has used in the series. It also depends on which examples of its use you see.
    It's shooting arrows to where his sword is pointing, I don't think it is a bow. I did say he had arrows, but this thing looks more like creating some kind of a circle (?) over his sword and shooting arrows from that. Ishida used bows that looked like... bows. More or less. And his attacks looked like arrows. Kirge doesn't even hold that thing. Even if it had a string, where would that bow point? Downwards.


    Quote Quote:
    I am not sure I get your point here. Other power? So juhabach would be a hybrid? The manga has perhaps some more things to explain about juhabach however I don't think there is any real evidence that he has something other than the ability to distribute his soul around.... What you said which did caught me of guard is your idea that his quincy powers are not innate to begin with...
    He summoned a bow, that shot an arrow. How is THAT power related in any way to his distributing his soul? His ability to distribute his soul doesn't explain how his Quincy powers work. It was pretty clear is exactly the opposite of Quincy power. Plus he has Zanpakuto. But well, if he is a father of all Quincies that are alive NOW, there must have been Quincies before. And those were people with high spiritual power. His ability was godlike, it's pretty clear he'd have crazy reiatsu. Gaining Quincy abilities wouldn't be a problem.

    Quote Quote:
    Why would we think that? I would have thought his quincy powers were innate and the soul splitting thing was his ability. There is no reason for us to think juhabach is anything but quincy as far as I can tell. I doubt he could father anything but quincy for that matter. If he is a hybrid then his descendants would also have to be whatever juhabach is....
    I understand where you're coming from. I always thought of his ability to distribute his soul as something different than his Quincy powers, because it's completely opposite. So I always thought he's a Quincy with unique power of unknown origin. But well, if you think of it as his ability it'd mean "A" is indeed connected to distributing his soul.

    @Edit: I noticed one thing rereading Kirge fight. Kirge is the only guy who used traditional Quincy techniques. Plus he was pretty important in SR army. Maybe he was older than other SRs, thus the fact he relies heavily on normal techniques than on his ability (which is useless in battle, which may be the reason he uses basic abilities instead of hax abilities like other SRs).
    Last edited by Duniak; March 25, 2014 at 11:45 AM.

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  4. #18
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Yuha Bach's power, the possibilities

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    It's shooting arrows to where his sword is pointing, I don't think it is a bow. I did say he had arrows, but this thing looks more like creating some kind of a circle (?) over his sword and shooting arrows from that. Ishida used bows that looked like... bows. More or less. And his attacks looked like arrows. Kirge doesn't even hold that thing. Even if it had a string, where would that bow point? Downwards.




    He summoned a bow, that shot an arrow. How is THAT power related in any way to his distributing his soul? His ability to distribute his soul doesn't explain how his Quincy powers work. It was pretty clear is exactly the opposite of Quincy power. Plus he has Zanpakuto. But well, if he is a father of all Quincies that are alive NOW, there must have been Quincies before. And those were people with high spiritual power. His ability was godlike, it's pretty clear he'd have crazy reiatsu. Gaining Quincy abilities wouldn't be a problem.



    I understand where you're coming from. I always thought of his ability to distribute his soul as something different than his Quincy powers, because it's completely opposite. So I always thought he's a Quincy with unique power of unknown origin. But well, if you think of it as his ability it'd mean "A" is indeed connected to distributing his soul.

    @Edit: I noticed one thing rereading Kirge fight. Kirge is the only guy who used traditional Quincy techniques. Plus he was pretty important in SR army. Maybe he was older than other SRs, thus the fact he relies heavily on normal techniques than on his ability (which is useless in battle, which may be the reason he uses basic abilities instead of hax abilities like other SRs).
    If you look for an exact bow you will never find one though. Just look at thing ishida used in HM, it is hardly a bow at all....

    I would argue that the bow he summoned is just a variation of the bow we generally see. Basically, a generic quincy ability which he happens to use like that. There is no reason for us to think the usage of his holy arrows through his weapon is related his unique ability. Now, it is true juhabach's ability is the opposite of what quincy normally do however jugram did refer to juhabach as a quincy in the end. I also doubt juhabach's sword is a zampakuto. Wouldn't shinigami notice that sort of thing? Its not like any other quincy weapon we have seen is a zampakuto either....


    Juhabach didn't start godlike though. He started as a baby that could not do anything, not even cry if he wanted to. Juhabach became what he is presumably after centuries of sharing and retrieving his soul, it is hardly an instant thing. I would think the manga has presented other abilities that could be used similarly if the users had actually cared to. Take starrk. Isn't his ability actually similar to juhabach's? It is used differently but it is ultimately the splitting of his soul.... Then we have driscol. Didn't he absorb the strength of his enemies or something? give him centuries of that and he could become an insanely strong thing too. Perhaps the most extreme example would be arroniero. The guy literally absorbed the techniques and reiatsu of those he devoured. Imagine 1000 more years of absorbing abilities and reiatsu. Overall I would argue juhabach is simply the only guy with an ability to grow stronger that actually abused his ability the right way to become a godlike being. Other characters could have presumably done similar things with their own abilities.

    I think the main reason kirge relied on normal techniques is simply because his special ability in itself is not meant for battle. Its a jail, he can't kill people within a jail as they are basically sealed. Even against ichigo it was a last ditched effort to at least stall him over his failure to kill him. The other quincy we know have not really been in a situation where the abilities kirge used would be helpful. Hirenkyaku is probably a given among stern riter. The holy arrow is too generic a technique to be useful to stern riter with actual offensive capacity IMO. Take Bazzb or bambietta. Why would they need the arrow when their abilities are that much more dangerous? The only technique that is kinda up there would be the slavery thingy although it depends on whether it would actually be useful at all. I doubt they can just absorb strong enemies like kirge was doing to allon or those arrancar (all much weaker than himself). Ichigo never appeared to have been affected by that at any point.

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    Re: Yuha Bach's power, the possibilities

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    If you look for an exact bow you will never find one though. Just look at thing ishida used in HM, it is hardly a bow at all....

    I would argue that the bow he summoned is just a variation of the bow we generally see. Basically, a generic quincy ability which he happens to use like that. There is no reason for us to think the usage of his holy arrows through his weapon is related his unique ability. Now, it is true juhabach's ability is the opposite of what quincy normally do however jugram did refer to juhabach as a quincy in the end. I also doubt juhabach's sword is a zampakuto. Wouldn't shinigami notice that sort of thing? Its not like any other quincy weapon we have seen is a zampakuto either....
    It did shoot arrows, that looked like arrows. :P

    A standard definition of Quincy is a person with high spiritual awareness, which is connected to high spiritual power, that trains in controlling it. Juha could become a Quincy through training, his ability is different story, though. Yamaji said "I waited for you to take out your Zanpakuto". The fact he waited for it means Yamaji knew Juha has Zanpakuto, despite not seeing it during this fight, meaning he already had it 1000 years ago and used it.


    Quote Quote:
    Juhabach didn't start godlike though. He started as a baby that could not do anything, not even cry if he wanted to. Juhabach became what he is presumably after centuries of sharing and retrieving his soul, it is hardly an instant thing. I would think the manga has presented other abilities that could be used similarly if the users had actually cared to.
    "after centuries of sharing and retrieving his soul". EXACTLY. It wasn't centuries, though. It was more like over a dozen years, when he was in his teens he has already been a normal kid, because people died pretty quickly after his "treatment". Btw. look what you wrote. He shared his soul since he was a baby to be godlike. So he was godlike from the start. This ability is what makes him godlike, not his immense Quincy power.


    Quote Quote:
    Take starrk. Isn't his ability actually similar to juhabach's? It is used differently but it is ultimately the splitting of his soul.... Then we have driscol. Didn't he absorb the strength of his enemies or something? give him centuries of that and he could become an insanely strong thing too. Perhaps the most extreme example would be arroniero. The guy literally absorbed the techniques and reiatsu of those he devoured. Imagine 1000 more years of absorbing abilities and reiatsu. Overall I would argue juhabach is simply the only guy with an ability to grow stronger that actually abused his ability the right way to become a godlike being. Other characters could have presumably done similar things with their own abilities
    Well, for me only his ability makes him godlike. And he was godlike from his birth. When he gained sight, hearing, you name it, he already must have been strong. He was "Yhwach" already. He has an ability that can make him stronger by doing NOTHING. His ability is hax and godlike, yeah. Juha could sleep for 900 years after being defeated by Yamaji just to divide his soul, make others power it up, get it back, and wake up from his slumber more powerful. Of coursbecome as strong as current Juha, but his ability is not nearly as hax.

    Quote Quote:
    I think the main reason kirge relied on normal techniques is simply because his special ability in itself is not meant for battle. Its a jail, he can't kill people within a jail as they are basically sealed. Even against ichigo it was a last ditched effort to at least stall him over his failure to kill him. The other quincy we know have not really been in a situation where the abilities kirge used would be helpful. Hirenkyaku is probably a given among stern riter. The holy arrow is too generic a technique to be useful to stern riter with actual offensive capacity IMO. Take Bazzb or bambietta. Why would they need the arrow when their abilities are that much more dangerous? The only technique that is kinda up there would be the slavery thingy although it depends on whether it would actually be useful at all. I doubt they can just absorb strong enemies like kirge was doing to allon or those arrancar (all much weaker than himself). Ichigo never appeared to have been affected by that at any point.
    That's exactly why I said his ability may be the reason but what about Ransou Tengai? Kirge used it just fine. Bambietta was lying on the ground letting herself be... something by her friends, Cang Du and BG9 regained conciousness but didn't fight.

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    Re: Yuha Bach's power, the possibilities

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Juhabach didn't start godlike though. He started as a baby that could not do anything, not even cry if he wanted to......
    "All of the letters come before the LORD giving reasons why they should be the first letter - all, that is, except for the letter Aleph. When the LORD asked why, Aleph explained that since he was silent, he had nothing to say. But the LORD honored Aleph's humility and declared him to be the first of all the letters"


    Anyway, "Absolute" is out of question because Bach will be beaten either by Ichigo or the real final boss, if the letter A turns out to be Asspull, then I really have nothing to say....

    Even gods could not be absolutely certain whether they existed at the most fundamental level of reality or were themselves simulated.

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    Re: Yuha Bach's power, the possibilities

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    It did shoot arrows, that looked like arrows. :P
    I was more of the idea that Kirge was using a Quincy Crossbow than a bow.
    (Think The Steam crossbow from the Van Hellsing movie to get the overall idea.)

    That way he wouldn´t have need for a bowstring and the two lines we saw from the hilt could have been the quiver where he stacked up ammunition.
    ...

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    Re: Yuha Bach's power, the possibilities

    Quote Originally Posted by Nanozom View Post
    I was more of the idea that Kirge was using a Quincy Crossbow than a bow.
    (Think The Steam crossbow from the Van Hellsing movie to get the overall idea.)

    That way he wouldn´t have need for a bowstring and the two lines we saw from the hilt could have been the quiver where he stacked up ammunition.
    ...
    But if it was crossbow it'd also point downwards. xd Why can't we just agree it's an odd looking thing that shoots energy blasts to where his sword is pointing? :v

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    Re: Yuha Bach's power, the possibilities

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    But if it was crossbow it'd also point downwards. xd Why can't we just agree it's an odd looking thing that shoots energy blasts to where his sword is pointing? :v
    Oh I get it...
    You are saying that it´s a Harpoon gun?
    Well, that would create arrows too... good point.

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    Re: Yuha Bach's power, the possibilities

    Arrows seem to be pretty much the equivalent of a sealed Zanpakuto for the Shinigami. The only Wandenreich guys we've seen using the classic bow are rank and file no-names. I think of the unique weapons of the Stern Ritter (swords, knives, whatever) as the Quincy equivalent of Shikai which only the strongest ones have, and it's natural that they'd use them. Even so, quite a few Stern Ritter have used something not unlike arrows. Driscoll's Harpoon was a giant arrow, Quilge with his arrows, As Nodt's spikes, Commisioner Gordon's pistol's bullets, BG9's minigun, Bambietta's bombs and Yhwach's finger blast could all be thought of as just evolved variants of the normal Quincy's bow or arrow. In fact, that big energy sword Yhwach used to kill Yamamoto was a giant arrow.

    But yeah, it's quite an interesting point about Yhwach's unique power and his Quincy power. I'd say there's no reason to think of them as two separate things, but I do take Duniak's point. Really there's no literal connection between portioning out his soul and manipulating surrounding reishi. But then since the ability to manipulate reishi is something others only gain by having a piece of Yhwach's soul, it's all part of the same thing.
    Last edited by NoOneInParticular; March 26, 2014 at 06:08 AM.

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    Re: Yuha Bach's power, the possibilities

    Quote Originally Posted by MBVC View Post
    "All of the letters come before the LORD giving reasons why they should be the first letter - all, that is, except for the letter Aleph. When the LORD asked why, Aleph explained that since he was silent, he had nothing to say. But the LORD honored Aleph's humility and declared him to be the first of all the letters"


    Anyway, "Absolute" is out of question because Bach will be beaten either by Ichigo or the real final boss, if the letter A turns out to be Asspull, then I really have nothing to say....

    Maybe Either Aizen or Soul King? Aizen is one Kubo favourite characters. He's still alive, still immortal and still hasn't revealed bankai so it's a perfectly trolly move. Though to be honest, I'm not into Aizen anymore at all...even if he does do something "cool" or whatever he's had his moment in the sun and did absolutely nothing.
    The only person he supposedly killed was Gin.

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    Re: Yuha Bach's power, the possibilities

    Please. Aizen is fodder compared to His Majesty unless he reaches his transcendent mode again. I'm not buying the whole immortality thing either cuz really its more the Hogyoku being (seemingly) indestructible than it is Aizen being immortal. You figure that, plotwise, they will be separated at some point later.

    Anyways I hope people don't misunderstand me. I think Aleph would be awesome. Its ancient and mysterious and makes sense blah blah. Just sayin, this is Kubo. It really boils down to if Ishida and Yhwach are the same A or not.

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    Re: Yuha Bach's power, the possibilities

    Quote Originally Posted by cracker View Post
    Maybe Either Aizen or Soul King? Aizen is one Kubo favourite characters. He's still alive, still immortal and still hasn't revealed bankai so it's a perfectly trolly move. Though to be honest, I'm not into Aizen anymore at all...even if he does do something "cool" or whatever he's had his moment in the sun and did absolutely nothing.
    The only person he supposedly killed was Gin.

    The final boss is the middle figure (Haswalth is always his right hand man without any doubt) of this poster: http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/480/5

    May be this is the final version of Bach, his younger self being in the strongest state. On the other hand, some people speculated that figure is actually the god of troll Aizen; I have no clue in both cases.

    Even gods could not be absolutely certain whether they existed at the most fundamental level of reality or were themselves simulated.

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    Re: Yuha Bach's power, the possibilities

    Quote Originally Posted by MBVC View Post
    The final boss is the middle figure (Haswalth is always his right hand man without any doubt) of this poster: http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/480/5

    May be this is the final version of Bach, his younger self being in the strongest state. On the other hand, some people speculated that figure is actually the god of troll Aizen; I have no clue in both cases.
    You might be on to something Kubo does like his foreshadowing though I must admit I like Bach....hmmm you got me thinking. He might want or need a new body, he might need Ishida's body for some reason. That might be Ishida in the shadow though I believe his chin is drawn (usually) a little more pointy lol

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    Re: Yuha Bach's power, the possibilities

    Quote Originally Posted by NoOneInParticular View Post
    But yeah, it's quite an interesting point about Yhwach's unique power and his Quincy power. I'd say there's no reason to think of them as two separate things, but I do take Duniak's point. Really there's no literal connection between portioning out his soul and manipulating surrounding reishi. But then since the ability to manipulate reishi is something others only gain by having a piece of Yhwach's soul, it's all part of the same thing.
    Getting his soul doesn't give you an ability. I mean, it does, but it doesn't. Shit, I'm not making any sense. Abilities come from a person's heart. Juha's soul is like a shortcut. As Nodt feared a lot, received Juha's soul, thus spiritual power, altered it, powered it up, gained fear ability. It doesn't mean Juha's soul gave him Quincy powers, but strengthened his soul. I guess it all comes down to origin of Quincy powers. Is it just Juha's blood? But there were Quincies before that. So Quincies may be only people with high spiritual power, that learn to use it. So technically Juha could have hax ability, then learn Quincy powers, and then give his soul (after learning to use Quincy techniques), to strengthen SR's soul, then make then learn Quincy techniques. Isn't that how it was with Arrancars? Some blood, give them a cross, boom, they're Quincies.

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    Re: Yuha Bach's power, the possibilities

    The main reason you don't see majority of the Sternritter using arrows is because they aren't "traditional" Quincy. Uryuu and his father, Ryuuken are "true blood" Quincies like Masaki was, so I can understand why, Kubo has presented in such a way.

    It wouldn't surprise me if, Ichigo manages to use Spirit bows and arrows in some of his new techniques, when he returns to Soul Society.

    "I did battle with ignorance today and ignorance won".

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