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Thread: Yuha Bach's power, the possibilities

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member NoOneInParticular's Avatar
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    Re: Yuha Bach's power, the possibilities

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Getting his soul doesn't give you an ability. I mean, it does, but it doesn't. Shit, I'm not making any sense. Abilities come from a person's heart. Juha's soul is like a shortcut. As Nodt feared a lot, received Juha's soul, thus spiritual power, altered it, powered it up, gained fear ability. It doesn't mean Juha's soul gave him Quincy powers, but strengthened his soul. I guess it all comes down to origin of Quincy powers. Is it just Juha's blood? But there were Quincies before that. So Quincies may be only people with high spiritual power, that learn to use it. So technically Juha could have hax ability, then learn Quincy powers, and then give his soul (after learning to use Quincy techniques), to strengthen SR's soul, then make then learn Quincy techniques. Isn't that how it was with Arrancars? Some blood, give them a cross, boom, they're Quincies.
    Well I assumed that the power of every Quincy came from a piece of Yhwach's soul, but now that you mention it it may be that only Sternritter have been given his soul. With the whole thing of fullblood and halfblood Quincy, it looks like base Quincy powers are inherited through genes. So maybe it is as simple as all Quincy being descended from Yhwach's bloodline, or even those of the original Sternritter. With the Auswahlen I thought he was taking bits of his soul back, but apparently he was just somehow taking all their personal power for himself. I guess it was something like a more advanced kind of mass-scale Sklavarei. Whatever the case, Yhwach has been called the origin of all Quincy power, so it all began with him somehow, and having his blood in you is enough to make someone a Quincy.

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    Re: Yuha Bach's power, the possibilities

    Quote Originally Posted by NoOneInParticular View Post
    Well I assumed that the power of every Quincy came from a piece of Yhwach's soul, but now that you mention it it may be that only Sternritter have been given his soul. With the whole thing of fullblood and halfblood Quincy, it looks like base Quincy powers are inherited through genes. So maybe it is as simple as all Quincy being descended from Yhwach's bloodline, or even those of the original Sternritter. With the Auswahlen I thought he was taking bits of his soul back, but apparently he was just somehow taking all their personal power for himself. I guess it was something like a more advanced kind of mass-scale Sklavarei. Whatever the case, Yhwach has been called the origin of all Quincy power, so it all began with him somehow, and having his blood in you is enough to make someone a Quincy.

    Original source of Quincy power, or ancestor of Quincies? He doesn't care about SRs, but he had comrades that he cared about 1000 years ago. How were they different? Maybe they just weren't SRs, but his Quincy friends, not from his blood. Every single Quincy was annihilated during this war. Juha wasn't. That's why all Quincies should come from him. But why Ishidas, purebloods, don't lose their powers like Misaki did? Souken, Ryuken and Ishida all were just fine. Katagiri and Masaki weren't. I think Ishidas are separate Quincy bloodline. They prefer bows (their revolution was 200 years ago, Juha's 1000). Ryuken was supposed to "lead all Quincies". But there still was Juha. Well, maybe Ryuken leading Quincies meant leading "Ishida Quincies", not Juha's Sternritters.

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    Re: Yuha Bach's power, the possibilities

    I think the various translations say 'progenitor' or 'creator', but they all say the Quincy started with him. You make in interesting point tbh, it could mean he's just the progenitor of the current bloodline and the other ones were eliminated, but personally I think the way it's been told implies that he's the source. There are arguments against that though, like the Ishidas clinging to some 'old way' of doing things that might well be independent of Yhwach's own take on Quincy power. So I'm not 100% sure either way if I'm honest. As for why the Ishidas didn't lose their powers, it's because Yhwach actively selected only halfbloods for his Auswahlen. Masaki was an exception for some reason, probably because she was tainted by the Hollow. Uryu is the only special case, since he was apparently chosen for Auswahlen and somehow survived with his powers intact (though who knows how honest Yhwach is being with him?). I have seen the theory around here of Uryu being his own original Quincy power source though, and it's certainly one valid explanation.

    And Yhwach's relationship with those Quincy Yama killed is an interesting topic, since he doesn't give two shits about his own guys dying. But if he's the progenitor, it could just be that those early Quincy were directly related to him, actual family members that he actually cared for.

    Having said that, I wonder if there's something to the actual name 'Quincy'? Total speculation, but since it means something to do with 5 and the insignia is a 5 pointed star, maybe it's because it was begun by 5 beings of spiritual power, Yhwach being only 1 of them.

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  6. #34
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member MBVC's Avatar
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    Re: Yuha Bach's power, the possibilities

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Original source of Quincy power, or ancestor of Quincies? He doesn't care about SRs, but he had comrades that he cared about 1000 years ago. How were they different? Maybe they just weren't SRs, but his Quincy friends, not from his blood. Every single Quincy was annihilated during this war. Juha wasn't. That's why all Quincies should come from him. But why Ishidas, purebloods, don't lose their powers like Misaki did? Souken, Ryuken and Ishida all were just fine. Katagiri and Masaki weren't. I think Ishidas are separate Quincy bloodline. They prefer bows (their revolution was 200 years ago, Juha's 1000). Ryuken was supposed to "lead all Quincies". But there still was Juha. Well, maybe Ryuken leading Quincies meant leading "Ishida Quincies", not Juha's Sternritters.

    A little off topic here, back in the SS arc I thought Tosen was one of the nicest captain ever because of his "justice version" but it turned out I was totally wrong about that. Now Haschwalth seems to be Bach's most loyal SR but does he stay true to the end or is he another version of Tosen minuses the weak part of course. It would be very interesting if Ryuken somehow bypasses Bach and becomes the true leader of all Quincy, Haschwalth is his right hand man and his son Uryu is the 3rd in command. I speculate that Ryuken did something to his son so that Uryu didn't vanish along with his mom, maybe even Urahara did something about that too because they had some connections in the past.

    Anyway back to the main topic, Haswalth might have given a small hint (a little chat with Uryu) that one day Bach will loose all his power becoming old and useless. I wonder how it's possible for someone to beat Bach in his own game, of course he never thought it'd be possible to happen but Bleach never has certainties in everything especially Kubo loves to troll around all the time.

    I realized that I am merely a conscience programmed into a game.

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    Re: Yuha Bach's power, the possibilities

    Quote Originally Posted by MBVC View Post
    A little off topic here, back in the SS arc I thought Tosen was one of the nicest captain ever because of his "justice version" but it turned out I was totally wrong about that. Now Haschwalth seems to be Bach's most loyal SR but does he stay true to the end or is he another version of Tosen minuses the weak part of course. It would be very interesting if Ryuken somehow bypasses Bach and becomes the true leader of all Quincy, Haschwalth is his right hand man and his son Uryu is the 3rd in command. I speculate that Ryuken did something to his son so that Uryu didn't vanish along with his mom, maybe even Urahara did something about that too because they had some connections in the past.

    Anyway back to the main topic, Haswalth might have given a small hint (a little chat with Uryu) that one day Bach will loose all his power becoming old and useless. I wonder how it's possible for someone to beat Bach in his own game, of course he never thought it'd be possible to happen but Bleach never has certainties in everything especially Kubo loves to troll around all the time.


    But Ryuken seems like a good guy... xd

    Ryuken uses a bow. He has a vast both practical and thereotical knowledge of Quincy techniques. Ishidas train on "fields". They use some reishi armors.

    SRs? Don't use a bow, have practical knowledge of Quincy techniques. I doubt anyone would know how to restore Quincy powers, like Ryuken did with all milimeters to the heart crap. They train by getting blood, they have NO reishi armors, their blood is reishi armor.

    Ishidas and SRs are pretty different, that's why I think Juha and Ishida are different, separate bloodlines.

  8. #36
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    Re: Yuha Bach's power, the possibilities

    MBVC got me thinking. I think Juha needs Ishida's body for some reason. Maybe a body swap.

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    Re: Yuha Bach's power, the possibilities

    Quote Originally Posted by cracker View Post
    MBVC got me thinking. I think Juha needs Ishida's body for some reason. Maybe a body swap.
    If he can move a fragment of his soul into someone, perhaps it is possible to move the whole thing...

    I do think Bach suspects Ishida of plotting against him...
    Infinite RAGE!

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    Re: Yuha Bach's power, the possibilities

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    But Ryuken seems like a good guy... xd

    Considering what the SS did to a group of Quincy in the past, Ryuken has his own vision of things should be done on both sides. Anyway, it's too early to make any claim about him being the final boss or belonging to the Urahara+Isshin camp.

    This is the list of all candidates who might be the final "creature": Bach himself, Aizen, the Ishida pop & son, Urahara, and......Ukitake (No, I'm not insane at all).

    I realized that I am merely a conscience programmed into a game.

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    Re: Yuha Bach's power, the possibilities

    So you have settled that the Soul King isn't evil at all? Well...on the possibility of him being evil...even a little lol

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    Re: Yuha Bach's power, the possibilities

    Quote Originally Posted by MBVC View Post
    Considering what the SS did to a group of Quincy in the past, Ryuken has his own vision of things should be done on both sides. Anyway, it's too early to make any claim about him being the final boss or belonging to the Urahara+Isshin camp.

    This is the list of all candidates who might be the final "creature": Bach himself, Aizen, the Ishida pop & son, Urahara, and......Ukitake (No, I'm not insane at all).
    Bach is pretty obvious, it wouldn't be a twist, he will have ZnT, Vollstandig+hax abilities of his SRs.
    Aizen is unlikely, he was supposed to help G13 in this war. I tell ya, Juha has equivalent of RGs in his army, that he'll use against RG, and that's when Aizen will come back.
    Ryuken and Uryu- highly unlikely, Uryu still values Ichigo, Uryu was never a match for Ichigo, and he entered Vandenreich only to avenge his mother, as Haschwald said I believe.
    Urahara- It would be a plotwise, yeah. xD A good guy all along, helped with everything (in his own way), he's shady, but I think he lacks the power to be the main villain. Or... wait... Aizen should be mortal for his comeback to make any sense, otherwise he'd just kill every damn guy. Urahara needs power. Urahara takes Hogyoku, Urahara the main big bad guy, after sitting on the Soul King throne, of course!
    Ukitake? Yeah, you're insane. xD I think Hinamori is a final villain, and I guess she's as likely as Ukitake. :P

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    Re: Yuha Bach's power, the possibilities

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Bach is pretty obvious, it wouldn't be a twist, he will have ZnT, Vollstandig+hax abilities of his SRs.
    Aizen is unlikely, he was supposed to help G13 in this war. I tell ya, Juha has equivalent of RGs in his army, that he'll use against RG, and that's when Aizen will come back.
    Ryuken and Uryu- highly unlikely, Uryu still values Ichigo, Uryu was never a match for Ichigo, and he entered Vandenreich only to avenge his mother, as Haschwald said I believe.
    Urahara- It would be a plotwise, yeah. xD A good guy all along, helped with everything (in his own way), he's shady, but I think he lacks the power to be the main villain. Or... wait... Aizen should be mortal for his comeback to make any sense, otherwise he'd just kill every damn guy. Urahara needs power. Urahara takes Hogyoku, Urahara the main big bad guy, after sitting on the Soul King throne, of course!
    Ukitake? Yeah, you're insane. xD I think Hinamori is a final villain, and I guess she's as likely as Ukitake. :P
    You forgot the most important possibility that Bach's current body might not be his original one in the past 1000 years ago, he may have a special ability to transfer his power+soul+memory into someone's body, this is the main reason why I included the Ishidas and especially Ukitake. Only Aizen and Urahara have the capacities to do the opposite other way around. There is a high probability that Bach chose Uryu to be his successor because Bach will take over Uryu's body eventually hence Bach's successor is just himself in different physical body with the same old mental, power and memory.

    ---------- Post added at 07:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:33 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by cracker View Post
    So you have settled that the Soul King isn't evil at all? Well...on the possibility of him being evil...even a little lol

    Soul King will be absorbed by someone aka the final villain.

    I realized that I am merely a conscience programmed into a game.

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    Re: Yuha Bach's power, the possibilities

    Quote Originally Posted by MBVC View Post
    You forgot the most important possibility that Bach's current body might not be his original one in the past 1000 years ago, he may have a special ability to transfer his power+soul+memory into someone's body, this is the main reason why I included the Ishidas and especially Ukitake. Only Aizen and Urahara have the capacities to do the opposite other way around. There is a high probability that Bach chose Uryu to be his successor because Bach will take over Uryu's body eventually hence Bach's successor is just himself in different physical body with the same old mental, power and memory.

    ---------- Post added at 07:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:33 PM ----------




    Soul King will be absorbed by someone aka the final villain.
    I thought it was said, that the only thing that keeps Bach going is his soul distributing, that lets him not get old, so to speak. I don't think getting Uryu would make a difference. And if his body is not his original, why is ther such a resemblance, that everyone commented on?

    Sorry, I don't get Ukitake/Urahara part.

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    Re: Yuha Bach's power, the possibilities

    The theory of juhabach changing bodies got me thinking... Why was juhabach senseless and immobile as baby and why would he digress to that stage now if he stops receiving souls? What if that is a side effect of his ability which causes him to naturally just kinda fade away? Crackpot theory time! What if the reason juhabach was like that as a baby and could digress to that is that his very soul is actually slowly but surely just melting away into nothingness? Perhaps we can make the case that juhabach's soul being placed on other people by simply coming in contact with them is a side effect of his soul just melting away into thin air regularly so to speak. So with his soul continually withering away it is only a side effect that bits and pieces of it can stick to other people. It would explain why he could do it as a baby and why he had a consciousness as one apparently. His soul is leaking away, pieces of it go to other people to whom it can stick and then once the pieces are strong enough they can actually return to juhabach. What we see with the letters could just be a refined version which does not kill the user in the short term but rather allows for a stronger bond which juhabach can better benefit from. From the pieces which return juhabach can sustain himself because they are greater than when they originally left, they allow him to have a more complete souls, with all the other perks of his ability, and allow him to live even if his soul is still continually fading away.

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    Re: Yuha Bach's power, the possibilities

    ^Actually now that you bring it up, the degradation part is quite strange. He gets the pieces of his soul back bigger and better, so why should they ever stop being enough to sustain him? Can't think of an answer right now, but it does sound a lot like the evolutionary path of a Menos. As they consume other Hollows they get stronger, but if they don't keep it up the regress back to Gillian stage permanently. Although since he's been 'dead' for 1000 years it seems it's not permanent in his case.

    Actually, thinking about that, what about the state he's been in the past millenium? The Quincy song said the King would regain his heartbeat, then mind, then power. The mind part stands out because going by the telling of his origins he had a mind when he was a baby. So I wonder if his 1000 year coma is different to what happens when he runs out of batteries.

    But anyway, going back to the similarity with Menos, I do wonder what it is about Hollows and Quincy. Quincy is the opposite of Shinigami, but the fact that Hollow power has the negative effect on them is the odd thing to me.

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    Re: Yuha Bach's power, the possibilities

    Quote Originally Posted by NoOneInParticular View Post
    ^Actually now that you bring it up, the degradation part is quite strange. He gets the pieces of his soul back bigger and better, so why should they ever stop being enough to sustain him? Can't think of an answer right now, but it does sound a lot like the evolutionary path of a Menos. As they consume other Hollows they get stronger, but if they don't keep it up the regress back to Gillian stage permanently. Although since he's been 'dead' for 1000 years it seems it's not permanent in his case.

    Actually, thinking about that, what about the state he's been in the past millenium? The Quincy song said the King would regain his heartbeat, then mind, then power. The mind part stands out because going by the telling of his origins he had a mind when he was a baby. So I wonder if his 1000 year coma is different to what happens when he runs out of batteries.

    But anyway, going back to the similarity with Menos, I do wonder what it is about Hollows and Quincy. Quincy is the opposite of Shinigami, but the fact that Hollow power has the negative effect on them is the odd thing to me.
    His "soul" is degrading constantly, and those pieces that come back only restore some of his soul. If he stops distributing his soul, all that's left is degrading.

    As for the song, nothing says he had a mind when he was a baby. He was as concious as any other baby. But he didn't have his sight, hearing etc. It was said the baby knew it can survive, but I don't take it seriously, it was just some poem from Kubo.

    His 1000 years coma makes perfect sense IMO. He got his ass handed to him by Yamaji. His soul was at lowest possible state, he almost had no strength left. Thus, he divided it and distributed. The every piece came back to him stronger, making his soul stronger. After 900 years, the whole process made him strong enough to wake up again. After that, he hade to assimilate all the knowledge, experience he got, restored his old self with aaaall this knowledge, then he performed the Auswahlen, getting even more power. I think it was then that he made SRs, he performed the Auswahlen so he could make SRs without losing his own power. The power he took from Mixedbloods were used for SRs. Now that I think about it, it does make sense. If he wanted all his power he'd just take ALL Quincy power in the world. But he didn't. He considered Purebloods his children, Mixedbloods were black sheeps, that he thought he can use to make more Purebloods Quincies. It's sounds like recycling...

    kkck: I'm not sure if it's an aftereffect of his ability. Maybe it's the very reason for his ability. Like As Nodt and his fear. And he had it as a newborn, just like Loyd and Royd. Juha's soul is degrading, but when he gives it to someone else it doesn't. Hell, it even gets stronger, and comes back, making his soul able to degrade without any loss for him. You know what I mean, right? xd

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