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Thread: No vasto lorde has been introduced yet?

  1. #31
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member mioluva's Avatar
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    Re: No vasto lorde has been introduced yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Notak View Post
    I think Espadas 4 to 0 were definitely opponents that had more reiatsu than the average captain. Still that doesn't necessarily matter as experience/skill and advantages through certain abilities can still win the day.
    Halibel had more reiatsu than Hitsugaya, but luckily for him his ability was perfect to be able to stand toe-to-toe with her.
    Barragan was practically invincible, had it not been for a smart kido trick, I'm not sure what they could have done about him.
    Stark handled two vizard captains AND two senior captains for a while, and was cleverly backstabbed by Shunsui. Shunsui's ability is hax and he's not your average captain either. Even then, he had a hard time with Stark.

    Yammy, well...I doubt that Byakuya or Kenpachi could have beaten him by themselves without the "teamwork". Yammy was stupid but strong.
    Although Yammy wasn't really a Vasto Lorde from what I recall, it's just that his rage-ability was strong enough that it reached top Espada levels.
    Like Aaroneiro.

    Dunno how much experience the Espada had...probably a century or two or maybe even three I guess, nothing like the senior captains though. They had no real training, it seems. Unless Aizen taught them himself.
    I don't think Yammy was a VL. They say that VLs are almost humanoid in appearance. Barragan, Harribel, and Ulquiorra were pretty humanoid before turning into arrancar. We don't know what Stark and Lilinette's form looked like before they naturally turned into arrancar and became two people. They say that an arrancar's released for resembles their forms as menos. If that's the case then Yammy was just another adjuchas with a useful power of getting bigger and stronger the more reishi he consumes.

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  3. #32
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member raikwolf's Avatar
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    Re: No vasto lorde has been introduced yet?

    Tier is the only one confirmed to be VL. (http://bleach.wikia.com/wiki/Hollow)

    Going by appereance/size all but Yammy and Aaroniero are VL. (They are not human size) Aaroniero is confirmed to be a Gillian.

    By facts: Ulquiorra, Stark and Barragan should be VL too, after all those are the ones prohibited to release their sword in Las Noches or use their zero. Grimmjow might as well be a VL, but everyone under Ulquiorra looks more likely to be adjuchas.


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    Re: No vasto lorde has been introduced yet?

    A question: Not sure if it is right place to ask but!

    The numbers of Espadas, were they given by Aizen or were they the indicators of how powerful each one was and changed accordingly ?

    If they were given by the Azien then there is a chance that he might have miscalculated it, because Barragan was definitely a VL, so Stark who was more powerful then him and Halibel (who was a confirmed VL) will definitely be a VL ...

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    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: No vasto lorde has been introduced yet?

    They were given by Aizen, just like bestowing titles upon them. So, Aizen definitely might have misjudged their levels of power. On a fun side note, Ulquiorra told Ichigo that his Segunda Etapa wasn't seen by Aizen, but he never said he was actually stronger than the Top 3. In fact, he explicitly stated that he was only the fourth strongest while they were fighting. So, maybe he had belief in Aizen's judgement or just did not bother to gauge their respective strengths himself, who knows (=

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    Re: No vasto lorde has been introduced yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    They were given by Aizen, just like bestowing titles upon them. So, Aizen definitely might have misjudged their levels of power. On a fun side note, Ulquiorra told Ichigo that his Segunda Etapa wasn't seen by Aizen, but he never said he was actually stronger than the Top 3. In fact, he explicitly stated that he was only the fourth strongest while they were fighting. So, maybe he had belief in Aizen's judgement or just did not bother to gauge their respective strengths himself, who knows (=
    Or Segunda Etapa wasn't that big of a deal, and it didn't give him enough power to be in TOP 3. Ichigo was being shitted on when Ulquiorra used Ressurection, the situation was the same when Ulq went R2. We have no clear comparison between R1 and R2. It might be only miniscule change, that didn't affect their ranking at all. R2 enabled him to use Lanza del Rempago, that's all. In terms of speed and power, we just now he was faster and stronger in both R1 and R2.

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    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member raikwolf's Avatar
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    Re: No vasto lorde has been introduced yet?

    The only thing I don't actually understand is how come Luppi took number six when Grimmjow was arm-cutted by Tosen... that didn't make any sence Luppi was not even 9 xD.

    And taking for example how Nel own Noitra my guess is that they have the currect numbering... it may be a slight differences and only Aizen knows how the heck he gave those numbers... I believe it could be decided on their ability rather than just power


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    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: No vasto lorde has been introduced yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by raikwolf View Post
    The only thing I don't actually understand is how come Luppi took number six when Grimmjow was arm-cutted by Tosen... that didn't make any sence Luppi was not even 9 xD.
    It was probably a teasing, a punishment for Grimmjow for his defeat. A punishment that would fit Aizen's personality, actually. He hurt Grimmjow's pride by placing Luppi, a more or less fodder guy at his rank and rubbing saw on his wounds. If Luppi was seriously considered to be one of the Espada by Aizen, he wouldn't sit and watch Grimmjow incinerate Luppi after Orihime healed him.

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    Re: No vasto lorde has been introduced yet?

    ^ Luppi was most likely just a pawn who was never intended for the Espada. Aizen already knew he was going to kidnap Orihime, so he knew Grimmjow could just be healed which is probably why he even let Tousen take his arm off in the first place. So since there was no point in rearranging the Espada and moving 7, 8 and 9 about, he must have just taken the 11th most powerful Arrancar and made him 6 because it was simpler.

    As for the numbering system, it was said in the databook that it was down to reiatsu levels alone. I think that makes the most sense anyway, otherwise there's no reason Barragan wouldn't be Primera (although I also wonder if it wasn't partly meant as an insult to Barragan).

    edit: Ninja'd

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    Re: No vasto lorde has been introduced yet?

    It is confirmed in a data book dont know which one that Ulquiorra was a VL, we know Tia Harribel was one aswell, we have hints that Starkk was an Arrancar before Aizen, and Barragan being the ruler of Hueco Mundo was most likely a VL, Grimmjow was confirmed to be a Adjuncha so everyone with a number higher than him were also, the only ones we dont know for sure is Noitra, my guess is that he was a Adjuncha also and Yammy too.

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    Re: No vasto lorde has been introduced yet?

    Its staggering how up to this day people still don't get the difference between an ARRANCAR and a VL MENOS. You are a VL if the MENOS FORM is human size. The only ones we saw like that were WW, Ulquiorra (databook), Starrk (silhouette before he died) and Hallibel (anime only). Barragan and Starrk were Arrancar already when Aizen found them. When you become an Arrancar you become human like anyways so you can't judge from that. All the Espada were natural Arrancar and WW was the only one made by the Hogyoku from scratch. The rest had their powers boosted by it.

    Anyways VL power was totally overhyped and even Aizen himself expressed his great disappointment in FKT at how weak his Espada turned out to be. He had to end up doing all the work himself anyways. So its kinda irrelevant who was a VL or not apart from the few confirmed. They are weak as shit in the current powerscale and only Hallibel has a chance to be relevant with a Quincy powerup from His Majesty. I would set my expectations for Grimmjow very low to avoid being disappointed and labelling Kubo a "troll".

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    Re: No vasto lorde has been introduced yet?

    I went back and watched that episode with Harribel, and Apache's exact words were "could she be a Vasto Lorde?". There was neither a yes or a no. And given that her mask didn't even fully cover her head it stands to reason that she was just an Arrancar, which would also explain why Apache said her reiatsu felt different from an Adjucha's.

    Just pointing that out. The only thing that I'd call evidence is Ulquiorra's flashback, which is also inconclusive. For one thing, there's no mention of evolution as a Menos, he just says he was "born in a pit", surrounded by others who were identical but black instead of white like him. I actually wonder if that's another case of one being splitting into several, but that's pure speculation. Point is, I'm not too sure about Ulquorra either. And Barragan and Starrk where already Arrancar, so there's no telling.

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    Re: No vasto lorde has been introduced yet?

    Ulquiorra was the only Vastro Lord to me, based around the fact that he did choose regeneration ability instead of power, and yet he was still powerful as hell.
    Most likely, not fact, but most likely he'd been more powerful than Stark, nr. 1 Espada, if Ulquiorra used his second ressurection form, which seems equivalent to a bankai.
    Question then is, why wasn't Ulquiorra ranked nr. 1? Regardless if Aizen knew it or not, Ulquiorra was hiding it, and if Aizen knew he probably didn't care if Ulquiorra was 4 or 1, he needed Ulquiorra's coorporation afterall.

    Why did Aizen like Ulquiorra so much? I doubt it was because of Ulquiorra's personality and abilities, rather, I think it was because of what he "was", a true Vastro Lord.
    • (0) - Yammy Llargo - (Adjucas)
    • (1) - Coyote Starrk & Lilynette Gingerbuck - (Adjucas) {Questionable, since he was lazy and his powers was odd (split in two) to begin with, like Ulquiorra's (odd).}
    • (2) - Baraggan Louisenbairn - (Adjucas)
    • (3) - Tier Harribel - (Adjucas)
    • (4) - Ulquiorra Cifer - (Vastro Lord)
    • (5) - Nnoitra Gilga - (Adjucas)
    • (6) - Grimmjow Jaegerjaquez (Adjucas)
    • (7) - Zommari Rureaux - (Adjucas)
    • (8) - Szayelaporro Granz - (Adjucas)
    • (9) - Aaroniero Arruruerie - (Gillian)

    What I think the databook says is that after beeing made into Arrancars, the Adjucas level Hollows gained strength equal to that of a Vastro Lord, but they never were Vastro Lord at thier core to begin with.
    The only one I think that really was a Vastro Lord, was Ulquiorra, because he never gained power from the Hogyoku, instead he gained regeneration abilities.

    Just think about it for a moment, Ichigo got cutstumped by Ulquiorra by his sheer reatsu alone, Ulquiorra was playing with him.
    Ichigo reached a new level when he fought against Grimjow, yet, it wasn't enough to even start fighting with Ulquiorra, since as we know, Ulquiorra was playing with him, untill he killed him.

    So that leaves the question, why was there such a huge difference between Grimjow and Ulquiorra?
    I doubt it was Ichigo suddenly getting weak here, more likely there is a real big difference between these two opponents.

    Right. So we have Aaroniero Arruruerie, the 10th (9th) Arrancar, the weakest of them all, a Gillian. Won't judge him becuase he was killed by Rukia (I think Rukia is very cableable), but just look at him <_< he's weak as hell! What Captain wouldn't win against him without dropping a sweat?

    Then compare Aaroniero Arruruerie, with Ulquiorra Cifer... it's quite the quantum leap if you ask me, it's a massive power difference.
    While we can't confirm this scientifical objectively with empircal data, one has to admit that logically there's a massive difference.

    But then, what if we look at the top of the Espada compared to Ulquiorra?
    This is more tricky to do, but at the rate he Ulquiorra was slaughtering Ichigo, and then afterwards Ichigo fighting alongside the Captains in the real world, just seems to suggest that Ulquiorra was a monster among the Esapda, regardless of his nr. 4 rank.

    Also it seems that Aizen didn't care about the rank system, in fact it seems that the only way to gain a rank among the Espada is to fight and win (Zaraki style) against one of the ranked Espada. But Ulquiorra did not seem to "care" about rank, in fact, this easily suggests that Ulquiorra could have been the strongest, but without caring to prove it by fighting his way to rank 1.

    I think the key here is that Ulquiorra has a second release, to what much seems like a bankai equivalent, whereas the first ressurection most Arrancars has, seems to be their shikai equivalent.

    If you think about it, in Bleach, it's required that any Captain candidates has learned bankai, in order to even to be considered to be ranked as a Captain.
    However there is an exception, Zaraki Kenpachi.
    If you think about it, Kubo sensei loves to mirror things, just look at the whole SS arc and HM arc for a grand exampe, but he does it many other places too, small details etc.
    For example Ulquiorra was the only Espada with a second release, which seems to be an equivalent to a bankai state.


    Conslusively it actually seems that Ulquiorra, in the end, was the only true Vastro Lord among the Espada.
    The never fully translated data book also seems to suggest that Arrancarfied Adjucas could reach Vastro Lord levels, but then you need to ask yourself, what happens if a Vastro Lord was Arrancarfied, and did not choose regeneration abilities over raw power?

    Finally there's also to consider what is meant by Captain level, to my understanding it's there are two ways it's used in the story.
    • (1) - There is a minimum level to reach before you're considered a captain level.
    • (2) - There is an avarage level devided between the weakest and the strongest.

    Sometimes the nr. 1 is used, other times it's the nr. 2.
    When Hitsugaya for exaple talked about the possibility of Aizen recruiting Vastro Lords and Arrancarfies them, only having 10 of these, would doom Soul Society.
    Anyway, here it seems most logical to use the average strength, and not the minimum strength to be allowed a Captain, when you compare.
    So all this means that the same probably also applies to the Hollows/Arrancars, right? After all, Kubo loves mirroring, so that means....

    Ulquiorra could in fact have been a weak Vastro Lord, he could been at average, or he could have been a strong one, something up near Zaraki/Yamamoto's top tier among the Captains.


    So the final question is, did Kubo have a change of heart? Was he originally going to bring in Vastro Lords in the story but later changed it?
    At this rate it's probably too late to bring in Vastro Lords as part of the story, as this is the final arc, and everything has been laid out, it seems the Quincies will be the final opponents instead of the real Vastro Lords.

    Also wasn't there a post at some point saying that in an interview Kubo said he was going to ignore the original idea of making a Hell arc?
    If he had thoughts about an Hell arc, (but instead made a filler movie out of it), then what could that have meant?

    Perhaps we would have seen true Vastro Lords from hell?
    The concept is a little bad though, why would there be true Vastro Lords in hell and not in HM just because Hell is for the true evil? Perhaps this is why Kubo decided not to do a Hell arc afterall? and as a result no real Vastro Lords? Too many plot holes with a Hell arc?

    ---------- Post added at 06:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:35 PM ----------

    To be frank, it actually seems that this whole confusion about "who is a Vastro Lord" is because of the retcon, Bleach wasn't planned from start to end (and followed through) when Vastro Lords got introduced.
    So for example, if removing the originally idea of making a hell arc, and introducing the real Vastro Lords, (Ulquiorra Cifer beeing a weaker Vastro Lord among them), then perhaps this is why we needed a databook to "attempth" to classify many of the Espada as Vastro Lords, even if it makes no sense at all, given how Vastro Lords was hyped by Kubo, and yet not a single Captain died by a Vastro Lord.

    So instead Kubo made the Quincies, this could be why the story doesn't feel "whole" as you may? He shifted course during the story? To me this seems to be the case, and that also the original idea was Arrancarfied Vastro Lords, which would be up near the same realm as Ichigo and Aizen in terms of strength.

    But as a classic Shounen story, I guess Ichigo needs to be unique in some way, so yet again a case "against" Arrancarfied Vastro Lords, they had to be abandoned to make the story seem classic shounen like, I guess.

    Well this is a whole lot of assumptions based on logic, who knows how it really played out... But this is my take on it, while I don't believe it to be certain, I think it's likely.

  16. #43
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    Re: No vasto lorde has been introduced yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quantized View Post
    Ulquiorra was the only Vastro Lord to me, based around the fact that he did choose regeneration ability instead of power, and yet he was still powerful as hell.
    Most likely, not fact, but most likely he'd been more powerful than Stark, nr. 1 Espada, if Ulquiorra used his second ressurection form, which seems equivalent to a bankai.
    Question then is, why wasn't Ulquiorra ranked nr. 1? Regardless if Aizen knew it or not, Ulquiorra was hiding it, and if Aizen knew he probably didn't care if Ulquiorra was 4 or 1, he needed Ulquiorra's coorporation afterall.

    Why did Aizen like Ulquiorra so much? I doubt it was because of Ulquiorra's personality and abilities, rather, I think it was because of what he "was", a true Vastro Lord.
    • (0) - Yammy Llargo - (Adjucas)
    • (1) - Coyote Starrk & Lilynette Gingerbuck - (Adjucas) {Questionable, since he was lazy and his powers was odd (split in two) to begin with, like Ulquiorra's (odd).}
    • (2) - Baraggan Louisenbairn - (Adjucas)
    • (3) - Tier Harribel - (Adjucas)
    • (4) - Ulquiorra Cifer - (Vastro Lord)
    • (5) - Nnoitra Gilga - (Adjucas)
    • (6) - Grimmjow Jaegerjaquez (Adjucas)
    • (7) - Zommari Rureaux - (Adjucas)
    • (8) - Szayelaporro Granz - (Adjucas)
    • (9) - Aaroniero Arruruerie - (Gillian)
    Just to comment on your speculation; Tier was confirmed by the databook as a VL. So your thoughts on Ulquiorra's ability relative to the Espada ranked higher than he was are an aside at this point, if he was a VL, he wasn't the only one. And it's likely given Barragan's history and Starrk's rank that they were too.

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  18. #44
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Quantized's Avatar
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    Re: No vasto lorde has been introduced yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Just to comment on your speculation; Tier was confirmed by the databook as a VL. So your thoughts on Ulquiorra's ability relative to the Espada ranked higher than he was are an aside at this point, if he was a VL, he wasn't the only one. And it's likely given Barragan's history and Starrk's rank that they were too.
    Wasn't this translation vague? I'm well aware of it, but it was never fully translated, and this is the very problem of it all.
    Point beeing, that it could have meant that after they were arrancarfied, they reached Vastro Lords levels, and not that they were Vastro Lords earlier to beeing arrancarfied.

    This makes a world of difference, I thought I made this clear in my post, but apparently not :0

    This whole business of completely hyping Vastro Lords and then destroying it by wiping them all out with almost ease (No Shinigami even died), makes it extremely anticlimatic, I don't think Kubo is "that" bad at writing, rather something has to have happened for him to shift course.

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    Re: No vasto lorde has been introduced yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quantized View Post
    Wasn't this translation vague? I'm well aware of it, but it was never fully translated, and this is the very problem of it all.
    Point beeing, that it could have meant that after they were arrancarfied, they reached Vastro Lords levels, and not that they were Vastro Lords earlier to beeing arrancarfied.

    This makes a world of difference, I thought I made this clear in my post, but apparently not :0

    This whole business of completely hyping Vastro Lords and then destroying it by wiping them all out with almost ease (No Shinigami even died), makes it extremely anticlimatic, I don't think Kubo is "that" bad at writing, rather something has to have happened for him to shift course.
    You could attempt to argue that you find the translation unconvincing, but the reality is that that is what those who've bothered to translate have put forth, combined with the anime background, I can't imagine that there's a reason to question. And hype is just that, when the Menos were first mentioned, even the Gillians were hyped, and they're pretty much fodder to anyone worth mentioning. It's a shounen, hype and defeat, it's a continuous cycle.

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