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Translations: Bleach 600 (2)
Orochimaru has said that his ultimate goal is to learn all ninjutsu and to do this he needs the power of the sage of the six paths. He previously said this was the reason why he needed Sasuke's body. I don't think this is the whole truth.
Who is Orochimaru?
I believe Oro is the man we see with the Mizukage at the first kage meeting. The similarities cannot be ignored and many have speculated some relationship between the two.
When Madara left Konoha he visited all of the other Kage to gain their allegiance. This is when Oro became interested in Madara.
Oro followed Madara to the valley of the end and witnessed Madara's defeat. Hashirama looked up after sensing Oro's presence but was too weak to do anything at this point and left. Oro collected Hashi's DNA which was all around due to the number of injuries he suffered and was able to save Madara's life, creating the face on his chest.
Madara stated that any ally of one of his men saved him and implanted the DNA. The man he was referring to was the mizukage and the ally was Oro.
Oro continued to experiment with Madara's consent attempting to gain the Rinnegan however their attempts failed. As Madara reached an old age he suffered a heart attack and thought this was his end. Oro was able to revive him once more and Madara awoke with the rinnegan.
Oro remained young by using his body swap jutsu.
After Madara summoned the gedo Oro created the three Zetsu. Black using Madara's DNA, white using Hashi's and spiral using his own. Madara was able to use the Zetsu to return to konoha and read the rest of the uchiha tablet. Madara later fused with black Zetsu and connected to the gedo to extend his life. Madara eventually died when he extracted black Zetsu and separated from the gedo.
After this Oro had done all he could to gain the perfect body now he needed someone strong enough to defeat Madara and give him the opportunity of taking over his body. He decided that the only one to beat Madara would be an Uchiha and took over the body of a young orphan in order to infiltrate Konoha.
He saw potential in Obito who was the ancestor of an Uchiha with a powerful mangekyou. He orchestrated the accident which lead to Obito's "death" and guided Zetsu to his body. Zetsu remained loyal to his creator.
Using his remaining influence within the hidden mist he assisted with and orchestrated Rin's capture and eventual death in order to awaken Obito's mangekyou.
In order to gain more influence within Konoha he made a deal with danzo promising him the position of kage. He leaked the information regarding naruto's birth to Obito via Zetsu. He warned Danzo of the attack so that he could hide and emerge to save the village once the fourth had been killed.
Oro chose Itachi to be the one who would take care of Madara for him but soon learnt of Obito's plans to dispose of the Uchiha.
Oro was able to convince the Uchiha to start a coup and then informed Danzo. He convinced Danzo that in order to save the village the Uchiha must be disposed of immediately and that Itachi could be used by agreeing to save Sasuke. Oro needed Sasuke at this point to allow Itachi to obtain the infinite mangekyou.
Oro later joined akatsuki to remain in watch of Itachi and Obito.
He soon realised that Sasuke had more potential and left akatsuki in order to make contact. He attacked Konoha to introduce himself to Sasuke and convince him of his power.
He trained Sasuke to ensure that he would become strong enough and allowed Sasuke to absorb him. Oro planned to leave Sasuke at the point of Madara's defeat.
Oro however placed contingencies. Kabuto and his cursed seals were used as a means of revival in the event something went wrong. Kabuto was conditioned to want to become Oro.
When Sasuke fought itachi Oro thought that Itachi would kill sasuke so emerged in order to prevent this. He didn't count on Itachi sealing him immediately. When oro was revived he commented that he didn't expect Sasuke to be the one, meaning that he thought it would be Zetsu or kabuto at the right time.
He is now assisting Sasuke and the alliance willingly waiting for Madara's defeat and his opportunity to gain the perfect body and eyes.
man...if oro couldn't beat itachi nor sasuke...he's in a world of hurt if he pumps his chest up at madara...
sasuke/naruto would wipe the floor with his ass...
if it weren't for "his" regeneration jutsus...he'd be dead long ago....
mind you...i love orochimaru....
Interesting theory. Good work.
The only part I have a question for is if he created the Zetsu with madara, then why didn't he swap into that body since he would then have senju. All he would need it Sharingan and time
Your theory conflicts with the story and doesn't even make sense, it's good to have imagination but at least check the manga facts before making up one
We already have Madara with rinnegan plus hashirama cells plus juubi inside him so i dont think how could oro become stronger than him even if he by casuallity becomes the juubi jinjurichi.We can't have a villain stronger than this madara.Oro at max could be tranformed as strong as this madara if he obtains sasuke body and than since he has hashirama cells then he awakens the rinnegan and after that for him to be allowed to put hand on the jinjurichi again.obito and madara were very similar of how they patronized of juubi i can't imagine the same thing repeated for the third time.it would kill the manga in it's ending.
Orochimaru: The Scientist
- Because during Madara vs Hashirama, he probably wasn't even born yet, we've seen as a child with Sarutobi, and at his parents grave
- Madara didn't say an ally saved him, he was talking about the " face " of Hashirama that is in his body and said it is the work of his ally, aka Kabuto who clearly said he slightly modified his body
- We know that Madara created the Zetsu using Hashirama's cells and an application of Banbutsu Sozo probably, Black Zetsu is nothing more than Madara's " will " as he clearly said, and we saw him being " created " during Obito's flashbacks
- Obito never needed anyone to tell him about Naruto's birth or any of the sort because he had access to Konoha easily with his Kamui
- Orochimaru never allowed himself to be absorbed, he simply failed against Sasuke and got overpowered thanks to the Sharingan
- Orochimaru was in no position to promise Danzo to become Hokage, he doesn't have that kind of political influence
I could go on but too lazy right now
Zetsu's body wasn't strong enough for Oro's end goal. Madara was a much more suitable choice.
I imagined more of a cliff hanger ending to the series where after defeating Madara they leave him on the verge of death momentary while distacted by other matters. When they return to Madara he is gone. The last scene would be Madara waking in a shadowy dungeon to see Oro emerge from the shadows torwards him.
- As I said in my original post Oro took over the body of an orphan to infiltrate Konoha. This is why he appeared young with Sarutobi.
- Madara has never said how he survived. Madara said that a partner of one of his men randomly did. He could have been talking about Kabuto but at that point Hashi knew who Obito was. Why did he need to be so cryptic when he could have referred to Obito by name.
- Don't believe everything Oro's puppets tell you.
- I doubt that he was able to listen into and/or obtain such confidential information with Kamui alone. Yes he could teleport into Konoha undetected but to remain hidden whilst listening to/reading the information seems a bit too much. Not only that but did he keep going back to Konoha waiting for an opportunity to learn of the plans or did he just happen upon a conversation.
- How do you know this for certain? Oro is very good at deceiving. He just wanted to seem like Sasuke was able to overpower him.
- Never said that Oro had political influence. If the fourth was killed and then Danzo was likely to have been a candidate for replacement. If he was the one who actually saved the village then his chances would be dramastically increased.
- Prove it then, because as far as I'm concerned, and taking both manga and even anime, Orochimaru started working on the Furo Fushi no Jutsu when he was at Konoha, with even Sarutobi asking him during part 1, after he revealed his host, if he " did complete the technique ", moreover, we know from the databook that Orochimaru's age is also 54 years old
Him taking the body of a kid and inflitrating Konoha is anything but a fact
- He was answering Hashirama about " his face " being in Madara body, to which Madara said that it was the work of Kabuto... Originally Madara managed to take Hashirama's cells and implanted them, but Kabuto messed even more with his body and ended up like we know him now, it's obvious stop reading too much into simple things
- Am I supposed to believe you then and not believe Kishi when he clearly showed us Madara creating Zetsu through the Gedo Mazo ? Are you serious ?
- We've seen Obito having access to Konoha, being able to easily sneak inside the Uchiha complex to read the stone tablet according to Itachi, you think he won't be able to easily get intel about something like that ? Judging from the degree of preparation, and how he waited for that, it's obvious he can have easy access to Konoha and get intel easily, you on the other hand have nothing to prove your claims with
- Because Oro clearly " lost " it during that fight, we've seen Oro losing his cool only on two situations : vs Sarutobi, and against Sasuke, no point in Kishi lying about that, and Itachi's actions prove that too
- Except Sarutobi was the one who became Hokage, and Danzo didn't do shit during the occasions when Konoha was in danger, there was no doubt he could've never become a Hokage will Sarutobi and Jiraiya around, since they seemed to be the first choices
So, Oro could've never promised that to Danzo because he simply didn't have that power, he would've needed to kill Jiraiya, Sarutobi and possibly Tsunade in order for Danzo to be considered for the position
Oro's relation with Danzo is clear, he experimented on him with Hashirama's cells in order to use Izanagi and enhance Kotoamatsukami, that's it. I'm not a fan of using anime as an argument, but in the latest episodes, Danzo went as far as trying to assassinate Orochimaru after he left Konoha
Last edited by Zehahaha; April 01, 2014 at 07:13 AM.
What I wrote was a theory about a possible connection between Orochimaru and all the events we've seen. There is no proof for this otherwise it wouldn't be a theory it would just be fact.
My theory is based my belief that everything Orochimaru has said or has told people has been a lie in order to manipulate people to further his true goal. Therefore everything that Orochimaru has said, everything that he has told people and everything that other characters have assumed or learned about Orochimaru can be assumed as false. Throwing arguments against me about what Orochimaru has said or done himself or what other characters have said about him isn't going to disprove my theory.
If this theory was true then it would be a huge plot twist which Kishi has kept since the beginning of the manga, or at least part two. He isn't going to let us know all the secrets as the story progresses otherwise it wouldn't be much of a twist and a shock to the readers. Kishi can use characters to fool the audience as well as other characters. If everything that every character says is true then should we still assume that Obito is Madara? He claimed to be Madara in the past and even gave Madara's back story as his own. Surely he can't have been lying in order to further his own goals?
The two main points that started my theory are the fact that the first Kage meeting each village was represented by their respective first and eventually second Kage except the Mist. Instead of the second Mizukage we see an unknown character who bears a remarkable resemblance to Orochimaru. Who was this guy? Why didn't he become the second Mizukage? What happened to him? and why does he look like Orochimaru?
The second point was that at the valley of the end Hashirama seemed to sense someone and looked up at the cliff. However before he could do anything about it he fell to his knees due to exhaustion. Madara suffered a wound similar to what Sasuke recently did and yet Sasuke was unable to move and would have died without help. How did Madara survive? and what was Hashirama looking at?
Until these answers are shown within the manga and it is shown that Orochimaru was not involved then my theory cannot be disproved.
That being said I will answer the points you have raised again.
- As I've said above there is no proof as this is a theory, however you have no proof that it isnt correct if we assume Oro was lying. He was working on a number of experiments in Konoha so Hiruzen only took Oro's word for it. Oro knew that he would need to swap bodies again at some point so leaking information that he was apparently working on this technique would make sense. That way when he was seen later and appear not to have aged or even be younger then it wouldn't come as a surprise and prevent further questions being asked which could expose his secret.
- The face is over the area where Madara was stabbed by Hashirama. I've no doubt that someone put Hashirama's cells in this area in order to save Madara's life. There's also no doubt that Kabuto upgraded this area and that's probably what caused the face to appear but we don't know this for fact. You haven't answered why Madara didn't mention Obito by name and remained so cryptic. This could be Kishi wanting you to think he was talking about Kabuto to throw you off the scent.
- Kishi showed us Black Zetsu appearing out of Madara in front of Obito. Is it really that easy to create a Zetsu using your own will? Why didn't he make more? Why didn't anyone else do this? My theory was that Black Zetsu had already fused with Madara prior to Obito's arrival. He was using Black Zetsu to sync with the Gedo in order to prolong his life. We saw Obito was able to increase his power by connecting to the Gedo through spiral zetsu.
My theory is that what Kishi showed us was Madara un-fusing with Black Zetsu and him telling Obito that it was his creation. Madara wanted Obito to keep to his plan. Whats better to do this saying that Black Zetsu was a creation from his own will or that it was created by some other guy, who has disappeared, using my DNA?
- Gaining access to an unguarded hidden stone tablet would be much easier than gaining access to confidential information which is likely to be heavily guarded/protected possibly by sensor nins.
- So you're saying that Oro couldn't have been acting at any point and that no-one is capable of fooling someone else?
- Your ignoring what I say was the intended outcome and what actually happened. The intention was that the Fourth would die and then Danzo would appear to defeat the Kyubi and save the village. Had this happened then he would have become a hero and increase his chances of becoming Hokage above the third. I doubt that either Jiraiya or Tsunade would have accepted the post of Hokage at this point. They don't even appear to have been in the village at this point.
The fight didn't go to plan and they underestimated the Fourth. He was able to pull control of the Kyubi from Obito and sealed it away. Danzo didn't have the chance to come to the village's rescue.
I'm not going to consider any arguments based on the anime but I have no doubt that whatever the relationship between the two Danzo wouldn't have hesitated to try and dispose of Oro if he ever felt that he was a threat to the village.
There was no one in that meeting that even looked like Orochimaru.
If you mean that dude that looked like Byakuga from Bleach, then you might have forgotten how Oro actually looks like.
On a sidenote: Oro used to take over bodys. He could have been anyone.
Orochimaru was broken up over his parents loss. Nuff said.
---------- Post added at 07:32 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:31 AM ----------
I mean following your logic SAI is Orochimaru's son.