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Thread: Hint of Soul King being an Enemy!

  1. #31
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Hint of Soul King being an Enemy!

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Sorry for the delay, I have some tests this week, so I'll try to keep writing to a minimum. Remember, never try to study psychology and nuclear power (however it's called... power engineering or somethin') at the same time. It'll make you freakin' craaaazy. But then I'll have holidays til October. >.<


    Even if attacks are rare, it was frequent enough to disrupt the balance pretty badly. And I always thought Ichigo was targeted because of his reiatsu. But Isshin made a pretty good job hiding it.

    And I wouldn't trust Aizen that much, he talked a lot to show how superior in intellect he is. I don't think he planned all of it. Him knowing about Ichigo was also a coincidence.


    Kirge was a madman, but he did collect some Arrancars. And he still was following orders. And SS still has some madmen.

    He offered joining SRs to Tres Bestias. And you know, hunting means catching and/or killing, massacre means killing all of 'em. I still think Juha didn't want to disrupt the balance, it's also a game over for him. If he wanted to do it he'd do it alone. If he wanted to do a Kamikaze he wouldn't need SRs to fight Shinigami. He could handle whole HM on his own, I'm sure of it, considering he'd have all of his powers. He could try to scare Shinigamis, make their attention go elsewhere, but then it was only a distraction, and not the purpose in itself.

    Even if they did die, it wasn't Juha that killed them. We know Katagiri wasn't really dead (she fell into coma because she was too weak, As Nodt was "one of few survivors, nothing says he survived the Selection, would kill the whole idea behind Uryu being so special and the only one), Masaki was just fine when we look at her, but she died protecting her child. And I am NOT saying they all died in accidents. I mean they died just like Masaki. They had power, they fought, then they lost it, but they couldn't stand doing nothing after fighting all that time. And they died protecting civilians, friends, or souls being attacked and devoured.
    If hollow attacks are rare, then how were those attacks alone enough to actually disrupt the balance? I don't think that adds up at all. If we consider urahara's story about the quincy from 200 years ago (dunno about the ones from 1000 years ago) and that that versions seems to be pretty similar to the one passed on by souken it kinda seems like the quincy from 200 years ago were actively hunting hollows.

    Well, aizen does lie but he does make a pretty good point about the hollow attacks and ichigo.

    In the most optimistic case based on what we saw with kirge his orders were to see if there was anyone worthwhile among the arrancar in HM and kill the rest. So you have a madman giving insane orders to a madman.... My point is not that SS is made out of saints, my point is that right now they are a saner, better, alternative to wandenreich. Every developed wandenreich member is clearly an insane remorseless murderer so far. In SS you have at the most mayuri as someone who would kill like that and then you have kenpachi and unohana who at least from what we saw in the manga are very selective on whom they kill. Heck, kenpachi actually spared nnoitora (nnoitora did refuse to stop fighting and was killed though).

    Your scenario is still massively improbable though. To begin with hollow attacks are not all that common, shinigami handled most of them to begin with. Mayuri did have his part although I doubt he would have cared much about powerless quincy. And if he had been involved then he would have probably noticed that suddenly the quincy powers of a bunch of quincy just disappeared which is pretty damn suspicious. If the selection was not the direct cause of death of the mixed blood quincy then there wouldn't be any merit in surviving it. There wouldn't have been anything special about ishida surviving it. Why would juhabach make the point that ishida was the only survivor from the selection if the selection did not kill anyone? Juhabach did not make the point that ishida was the only quincy to keep his powers after the selection either, it was specifically about "surviving" it and only because something about ishida surpasses juhabach. The selection killed the quincy, its the only way in which juhabach's words make sense. Heck, juhabach is so guilty of killing the mix blood quincy that halswald was immediately suspicious of ishida wanting to avenge his mother.

  2. #32
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    Re: Hint of Soul King being an Enemy!

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    If hollow attacks are rare, then how were those attacks alone enough to actually disrupt the balance? I don't think that adds up at all. If we consider urahara's story about the quincy from 200 years ago (dunno about the ones from 1000 years ago) and that that versions seems to be pretty similar to the one passed on by souken it kinda seems like the quincy from 200 years ago were actively hunting hollows.
    Wait a minute, you said they were rare... -.- And now you say that doesn't add up.

    1000 years ago they probably weren't doing anything in particular. And they probably were in SS. With Juha. He wouldn't want to get back his kingdom if never lived there.

    Quote Quote:
    Well, aizen does lie but he does make a pretty good point about the hollow attacks and ichigo.
    Rukia couldn't feel Ichigo until she was just next to him, as his reiatsu filled his whole room. IIRC there was some barrier, I'd need to reread the whole manga, or maybe it's just my imagination. >.<

    Quote Quote:
    In the most optimistic case based on what we saw with kirge his orders were to see if there was anyone worthwhile among the arrancar in HM and kill the rest. So you have a madman giving insane orders to a madman.... My point is not that SS is made out of saints, my point is that right now they are a saner, better, alternative to wandenreich.
    And my point is SS are also bad, even if SR are worse. I'm saying there's no clear "good guys side" and "bad guys side", because we have bad guys and normal guys on both sides.


    Quote Quote:
    Every developed wandenreich member is clearly an insane remorseless murderer so far. In SS you have at the most mayuri as someone who would kill like that and then you have kenpachi and unohana who at least from what we saw in the manga are very selective on whom they kill. Heck, kenpachi actually spared nnoitora (nnoitora did refuse to stop fighting and was killed though).
    Kenpachi selective? Tell that to te mountain of corpses he sat on when he met Unohana, who, by the way, went to massacre a whole district back then. Sparing Nnoitra or Ikkaku has nothing to do with him being any sane. He's just that big of a psycho, that he prefers people to hate him and try to kill him, and they can't do it dead. "Come back and kill me if you can".

    Quote Quote:
    Your scenario is still massively improbable though. To begin with hollow attacks are not all that common, shinigami handled most of them to begin with. Mayuri did have his part although I doubt he would have cared much about powerless quincy. And if he had been involved then he would have probably noticed that suddenly the quincy powers of a bunch of quincy just disappeared which is pretty damn suspicious. If the selection was not the direct cause of death of the mixed blood quincy then there wouldn't be any merit in surviving it. There wouldn't have been anything special about ishida surviving it. Why would juhabach make the point that ishida was the only survivor from the selection if the selection did not kill anyone? Juhabach did not make the point that ishida was the only quincy to keep his powers after the selection either, it was specifically about "surviving" it and only because something about ishida surpasses juhabach. The selection killed the quincy, its the only way in which juhabach's words make sense. Heck, juhabach is so guilty of killing the mix blood quincy that halswald was immediately suspicious of ishida wanting to avenge his mother.
    Then Masaki, As Nodt and Katagiri SURVIVED the selection, and didn't survive the AFTERMATH. Simple IMO. And about surpassing... of course Ishida has something that surpasses Bach. Juha wanted his power, but couldn't take it. Surviving doesn't really matter now, does it? He still had power and could kill bunch of Hollows without much problem.

  3. #33
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    Re: Hint of Soul King being an Enemy!

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Wait a minute, you said they were rare... -.- And now you say that doesn't add up.
    I am saying it does not add up because hollow attacks are rare. The balance today was about to break because the quincy killed thousands upon thousands of hollows. If hollow attacks are rare then just how exactly do the hollows they kill in self defense add up to destroy the balance? There is something off here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    1000 years ago they probably weren't doing anything in particular. And they probably were in SS. With Juha. He wouldn't want to get back his kingdom if never lived there.
    I am not sure the point of the war is juhabach "recovering" his kingdom. Has it ever been said or implied the quincy were originally in charge?



    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Rukia couldn't feel Ichigo until she was just next to him, as his reiatsu filled his whole room. IIRC there was some barrier, I'd need to reread the whole manga, or maybe it's just my imagination. >.<
    I am not sure what you mean here.... Rukia couldn't feel the hollow approach because ichigo's reiatsu blocked her senses. Are you suggesting a barrier prevented ichigo from being attacked by hollows? I am reasonably sure nothing of the sort was ever said.



    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    And my point is SS are also bad, even if SR are worse. I'm saying there's no clear "good guys side" and "bad guys side", because we have bad guys and normal guys on both sides.
    What stern riter has ever given indication of being even relatively normal? The only thing that can be given to the stern riter is the benefit of the doubt because they have yet to be properly developed. All the ones that have been developed fall without fail into the remorseless murderer category. While there are a couple crazy ones in SS, they are massively outnumbered by a bunch of people who are clearly an unequivocally good guys. SS might have a murky past based on old misconceptions and outdated ideas but right now I don't see how it is that the quincy are not clearly the evil ones. I mean, they literally kill each other for no reason consistently. Only mayuri has done such a thing in the SS side and if caught he would be a criminal. The same thing can't be said about a stern riter killing or torturing a fellow quincy.




    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Kenpachi selective? Tell that to te mountain of corpses he sat on when he met Unohana, who, by the way, went to massacre a whole district back then. Sparing Nnoitra or Ikkaku has nothing to do with him being any sane. He's just that big of a psycho, that he prefers people to hate him and try to kill him, and they can't do it dead. "Come back and kill me if you can".
    Well, to be fair that was quite a long time ago. What about kenpachi now? And even in that scenario kenpachi seems saner than your average stern riter. At least kenpachi killed them in fights but he has never killed anyone unprovoked that we know of. In turn we have seen plenty of stern riter kill defenseless allies.



    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Then Masaki, As Nodt and Katagiri SURVIVED the selection, and didn't survive the AFTERMATH. Simple IMO. And about surpassing... of course Ishida has something that surpasses Bach. Juha wanted his power, but couldn't take it. Surviving doesn't really matter now, does it? He still had power and could kill bunch of Hollows without much problem.
    What difference does it make? Whether the selection kills them on the spot or whether it kills them slowly over time it still killed every mixed blood quincy in the human world. Katagiri went into a coma and died because of the selection. I doubt nodt being bedridden, hospitalized and presumably dying is just a coincidence here, odds are he was going through something relatively similar to what katagiri went through safe for the coma and he perhaps lasted longer. What you are suggesting just cannot make sense because it implies a group of people just happened to die out of sheer coincidence which just cannot make sense. If there were 5 mixed blood quincy left then perhaps the case could be made that they went through the selection and they collectively were the unluckiest group of people alive. But what if there were 10 left? 20? 30? 50? 1000? If we are talking about a not insignificant group of people and they all died after the selection then the selection killed them, its the only thing that makes at least a bit of sense.

  4. #34
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    Re: Hint of Soul King being an Enemy!

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    I am saying it does not add up because hollow attacks are rare. The balance today was about to break because the quincy killed thousands upon thousands of hollows. If hollow attacks are rare then just how exactly do the hollows they kill in self defense add up to destroy the balance? There is something off here.
    They were offsetting balance for EIGHT HUNDRED YEARS. And every Hollow they killed VANISHED into NOTHINGNESS. Frequency of Hollow attacks? Irrelevant with 800 years of killing them I guess.


    Quote Quote:
    I am not sure the point of the war is juhabach "recovering" his kingdom. Has it ever been said or implied the quincy were originally in charge?

    I'm not sure, I read it somewhere, might have been incorrect translation, though.

    Quote Quote:
    I am not sure what you mean here.... Rukia couldn't feel the hollow approach because ichigo's reiatsu blocked her senses. Are you suggesting a barrier prevented ichigo from being attacked by hollows? I am reasonably sure nothing of the sort was ever said.
    Isshin made a charm for Kon, meaning he's skilledin that regard.

    Ichigo never saw a Hollow in his whole life, yet after he becomes a Shinigami they just pop up constantly. And they're saying how tasty he is, and how they should go after him. They NEVER felt him. Not to mention Aizen was FULL of shit.

    http://www.mangareader.net/94-49233-...apter-397.html

    Kid chased after a Hollow and got his mother killed because she lost her powers, but he saw that Hollow. He didn't know it was a Hollow, but he WAS attacked by it. But Aizen didn't see it because noone told him, so he couldn't make up a convenient lie.

    http://www.mangareader.net/94-472-12...hapter-18.html

    Ichigo should have been targeted, but somehow never was.

    Quote Quote:
    What stern riter has ever given indication of being even relatively normal? The only thing that can be given to the stern riter is the benefit of the doubt because they have yet to be properly developed. All the ones that have been developed fall without fail into the remorseless murderer category. While there are a couple crazy ones in SS, they are massively outnumbered by a bunch of people who are clearly an unequivocally good guys. SS might have a murky past based on old misconceptions and outdated ideas but right now I don't see how it is that the quincy are not clearly the evil ones. I mean, they literally kill each other for no reason consistently. Only mayuri has done such a thing in the SS side and if caught he would be a criminal. The same thing can't be said about a stern riter killing or torturing a fellow quincy.
    Benefit of the doubt is enough. Innocent until proven guilty. Some of them seem normal. Mayuri massacred like TENS OF THOUSANDS people in Rukongai. Even SRs fall short.


    Quote Quote:
    Well, to be fair that was quite a long time ago. What about kenpachi now? And even in that scenario kenpachi seems saner than your average stern riter. At least kenpachi killed them in fights but he has never killed anyone unprovoked that we know of. In turn we have seen plenty of stern riter kill defenseless allies.
    Nah, Kenpachi is not sane, he is just on a good side.


    Quote Quote:
    What difference does it make? Whether the selection kills them on the spot or whether it kills them slowly over time it still killed every mixed blood quincy in the human world. Katagiri went into a coma and died because of the selection. I doubt nodt being bedridden, hospitalized and presumably dying is just a coincidence here, odds are he was going through something relatively similar to what katagiri went through safe for the coma and he perhaps lasted longer. What you are suggesting just cannot make sense because it implies a group of people just happened to die out of sheer coincidence which just cannot make sense. If there were 5 mixed blood quincy left then perhaps the case could be made that they went through the selection and they collectively were the unluckiest group of people alive. But what if there were 10 left? 20? 30? 50? 1000? If we are talking about a not insignificant group of people and they all died after the selection then the selection killed them, its the only thing that makes at least a bit of sense.
    Logic and reason don't work... Then... PROOFS. Proofs that Selection killed every Quincy, despite Masaki being strong enough to survive it. Proof, that Yhwach is an idiot to say it's a feat to survive a Selection and the aftermath. And again with my flawless examples that are so stupid I'm astonished:

    If I cut off your leg and you get killed by a truck, it'd be truck driver who killed you.

  5. #35
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Hint of Soul King being an Enemy!

    From what we have seen shinigami are able to adjust the balance on their own though. The quincy killing hollows over hundreds of years would not really seem to be an issue in that scenario as the shinigami could just make adjustments. In turn if they kill hollows faster than what they can adjust then there is a problem.

    I am giving them the benefit of doubt. However since basically all the quincy that have been developed are in fact batshit crazy lunatics that would murder their allies without a shred of remorse or alternatively kill people uninvolved with the war for the lols along with juhabach modeling them after murderers from 1000 years ago their odds are not good. Currently SS only has a few psychos. With wandenreich at least half of them are insane remorseless murderers. Even if every remaining quincy turned out to be the pope times mother teresa times ghandi they are still the objectively more evil organization because the amount of confirmed insane lunatics in wandenreich (at least 11) is almost as large as the amount of captains in SS.

    Note that with kenpachi I said "saner", not actually sane.

    There is not much I can do if you really believe that bit about the selection. Proof? Math is enough... What you are saying is that juhabach carried out his selection and then every quincy involved in it died because of some freak accident which followed.... That simply does not make sense. Is it possible there were a few freak accidents? Sure, it is entirely possible but accidents are accidents because they are not intentional, because they are improbable. The idea that every mixed blood quincy died after the selection for reasons completely unrelated to the selection is every bit as insane as most stern riter. If every quincy died after the selection then what happened was not improbable, it was certain.

  6. #36
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    Re: Hint of Soul King being an Enemy!

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    From what we have seen shinigami are able to adjust the balance on their own though. The quincy killing hollows over hundreds of years would not really seem to be an issue in that scenario as the shinigami could just make adjustments. In turn if they kill hollows faster than what they can adjust then there is a problem.
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...3-page-15.html

    Yeah, killing 28,000 people to adjust the balance seems like they can do it.

    Quote Quote:
    I am giving them the benefit of doubt. However since basically all the quincy that have been developed are in fact batshit crazy lunatics that would murder their allies without a shred of remorse or alternatively kill people uninvolved with the war for the lols along with juhabach modeling them after murderers from 1000 years ago their odds are not good. Currently SS only has a few psychos. With wandenreich at least half of them are insane remorseless murderers. Even if every remaining quincy turned out to be the pope times mother teresa times ghandi they are still the objectively more evil organization because the amount of confirmed insane lunatics in wandenreich (at least 11) is almost as large as the amount of captains in SS.
    They're bad guys, even when they seem normal if they get excited with a fight people will call them names. I remember long time ago someone wrote that SRs Shunsui fought was mental, because he was very excited about Juha fighting. The same could be said about Kyoraku, but noone thought it was strange or out of ordinary.

    Quote Quote:
    There is not much I can do if you really believe that bit about the selection. Proof? Math is enough... What you are saying is that juhabach carried out his selection and then every quincy involved in it died because of some freak accident which followed.... That simply does not make sense. Is it possible there were a few freak accidents? Sure, it is entirely possible but accidents are accidents because they are not intentional, because they are improbable. The idea that every mixed blood quincy died after the selection for reasons completely unrelated to the selection is every bit as insane as most stern riter. If every quincy died after the selection then what happened was not improbable, it was certain.
    Again with "freak accident". Neither a freak nor an accident. Look at Africa. Revolutions, all that crap. There was a war, they got power and are now reigning over their country. The problem is, they can't stop fighting even if there is peace, but now it's not shown in TV. Situation is the same. TV needed to show they can make revolution and succeed, but they won't show what this revolution did with people and this country. People say Kaddafi was better. Syria is in ruins, ruled by psychopats. Same could be said about mixed bloods. They could no longer fight, but they just couldn't stop. Unless we are told otherwise, we can't say Selection killed all of em. You're making a claim saying "Mixed bloods were killed by Selection", burden of proof is on you, and you depend on probability, which is as far as you can get from a proof.

  7. #37
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Hint of Soul King being an Enemy!

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...3-page-15.html

    Yeah, killing 28,000 people to adjust the balance seems like they can do it.



    They're bad guys, even when they seem normal if they get excited with a fight people will call them names. I remember long time ago someone wrote that SRs Shunsui fought was mental, because he was very excited about Juha fighting. The same could be said about Kyoraku, but noone thought it was strange or out of ordinary.



    Again with "freak accident". Neither a freak nor an accident. Look at Africa. Revolutions, all that crap. There was a war, they got power and are now reigning over their country. The problem is, they can't stop fighting even if there is peace, but now it's not shown in TV. Situation is the same. TV needed to show they can make revolution and succeed, but they won't show what this revolution did with people and this country. People say Kaddafi was better. Syria is in ruins, ruled by psychopats. Same could be said about mixed bloods. They could no longer fight, but they just couldn't stop. Unless we are told otherwise, we can't say Selection killed all of em. You're making a claim saying "Mixed bloods were killed by Selection", burden of proof is on you, and you depend on probability, which is as far as you can get from a proof.
    We saw mayuri and the 12th division making adjustments to the balance and whatnot back when the arc started. What caused them trouble was thousands upon thousands of hollows disappearing suddenly.

    Quincy before the selection did not take active roles in hollow huntings as far as we know. Just look at ryuken's mom, she even specifically told ryuken not to let involved with white when he was killing shinigami. There is no reason for us to think the mixed blood quincy were in a war situation against hollows. The scenario you are proposing sounds every bit as proposterous as every one of them being involved in a freak accident.... I mean, what you are suggesting is not a freak accident but rather that each and every mix blood quincy was stupid and had a profound deathwish and they simply jumped at the chance to fight hollows they lacked the means or a reason to fight. And the same logic with the freak accidents would apply in the end. A few quincy being insane and going to fight an enemy whom they did not need to fight with powers they lacked? Ok, absurd but plausible. 10 quincy doing that? Things get murky here, you'd think common sense would strike at least by quincy even by accident. 20 quicy? No common sense in 20 mixed blood quincy? 40? 100? Are they inbred? Probability is pretty good considering the alternative so far are massively improbable scenarios which involve either the quincy being too unlucky or too collectively stupid to live anyways. Heck, juhabach himself makes the point that no mixed blood quincy survived the selection (nodt, as far as we saw, was saved by juhabach which is not quite the same as with uryu who survived on his own). The alternatives we have so far are that either juhabach killed the mixed blood quincy, they were too unlucky to exist or they had a collective deathwish. Accepting juhabach's explanation that the selection killed them seems like the only obvious alternative.

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    Re: Hint of Soul King being an Enemy!

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    We saw mayuri and the 12th division making adjustments to the balance and whatnot back when the arc started. What caused them trouble was thousands upon thousands of hollows disappearing suddenly.

    Quincy before the selection did not take active roles in hollow huntings as far as we know. Just look at ryuken's mom, she even specifically told ryuken not to let involved with white when he was killing shinigami. There is no reason for us to think the mixed blood quincy were in a war situation against hollows. The scenario you are proposing sounds every bit as proposterous as every one of them being involved in a freak accident.... I mean, what you are suggesting is not a freak accident but rather that each and every mix blood quincy was stupid and had a profound deathwish and they simply jumped at the chance to fight hollows they lacked the means or a reason to fight. And the same logic with the freak accidents would apply in the end. A few quincy being insane and going to fight an enemy whom they did not need to fight with powers they lacked? Ok, absurd but plausible. 10 quincy doing that? Things get murky here, you'd think common sense would strike at least by quincy even by accident. 20 quicy? No common sense in 20 mixed blood quincy? 40? 100? Are they inbred? Probability is pretty good considering the alternative so far are massively improbable scenarios which involve either the quincy being too unlucky or too collectively stupid to live anyways. Heck, juhabach himself makes the point that no mixed blood quincy survived the selection (nodt, as far as we saw, was saved by juhabach which is not quite the same as with uryu who survived on his own). The alternatives we have so far are that either juhabach killed the mixed blood quincy, they were too unlucky to exist or they had a collective deathwish. Accepting juhabach's explanation that the selection killed them seems like the only obvious alternative.
    They didn't need to fight Hollow even though they could see them and they could see the souls being attacked? Yeah, right. I mean, who would try to rescue anyone without powers. I know one guy, Kurosaki Ichigo. With a baseball bat. You saying people would just watch others die and get devoured is even more ridicoulous.

    There is another clear, easy alternative. They just were weakened, stripped of their power and couldn't do shit, thus they died. Easy peasy. Katagiri went into coma because, as it was stated, she was weak from the birth. Unless ALL Gemischt Quincies were weak from the birth, and Masaki was a very rare case to actually stay not only concious, but to do something to a Hollow, Selection didn't kill them. But they all died, though.

    Btw, why didn't Grand Fisher kill Ichigo? Ichigo was his meal, he was right there, Masaki was powerless, he didn't get any "food" from her. She wasn't tasty. Tasty Ichigo was right there, though.
    Last edited by Duniak; May 11, 2014 at 10:02 AM.

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    Re: Hint of Soul King being an Enemy!

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    They didn't need to fight Hollow even though they could see them and they could see the souls being attacked? Yeah, right. I mean, who would try to rescue anyone without powers. I know one guy, Kurosaki Ichigo. With a baseball bat. You saying people would just watch others die and get devoured is even more ridicoulous.

    There is another clear, easy alternative. They just were weakened, stripped of their power and couldn't do shit, thus they died. Easy peasy. Katagiri went into coma because, as it was stated, she was weak from the birth. Unless ALL Gemischt Quincies were weak from the birth, and Masaki was a very rare case to actually stay not only concious, but to do something to a Hollow, Selection didn't kill them. But they all died, though.

    Btw, why didn't Grand Fisher kill Ichigo? Ichigo was his meal, he was right there, Masaki was powerless, he didn't get any "food" from her. She wasn't tasty. Tasty Ichigo was right there, though.
    Except, that we have every reason to believe they did just that. And in the case of the mix blood quincy it would make a huge amount of sense to do just that because, well, they can't do anything at all. They would be going to die a pointless death.... The scenario which you are suggesting is that the quincy collectively killed themselves which simply does not make sense. Same as before, it is plausible that a few quincy got themselves in a situation where they pointlessly went to a fight where their only plausible contribution would be to add to the bodycount but what you are suggesting is that EVERY quincy went in and did that. That not a single quincy thought "Well, my actual options right now are to not go there and let everyone die or go there and die with them.... Sorry folks, of to watch "how I met your mother" reruns". Alternatively, it seems like you are suggesting that every mixed blood quincy got into a situation like that of ichigo's. That every mixed blood quincy had his family attacked by a hollow even though we have every reason to believe hollow attacks are relatively rare to begin with.

    I would argue that ultimately katagiri being weak from the start was not too relevant to her actually dying or it might have just speed up the process. As you said, everyone died and it is improbable every mixed blood quincy had a weak constitution (although the idea of her being that weak is weird if we consider she was capable of fighting). Masaki should not be considered here because she was not a mixed blood quincy, her situation was different.

    Good question about ichigo although that is precisely the part of the events that was skipped. Considering the exceptional situations around masaki being involved in the selection at all it is plausible we have not seen everything surrounding those events and they will be relevant in the future.

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    Re: Hint of Soul King being an Enemy!

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Except, that we have every reason to believe they did just that. And in the case of the mix blood quincy it would make a huge amount of sense to do just that because, well, they can't do anything at all. They would be going to die a pointless death.... The scenario which you are suggesting is that the quincy collectively killed themselves which simply does not make sense. Same as before, it is plausible that a few quincy got themselves in a situation where they pointlessly went to a fight where their only plausible contribution would be to add to the bodycount but what you are suggesting is that EVERY quincy went in and did that.
    I forgot the noble house of Ishidas and the guy who was supposed to be leading Quincy, whose father was opposing other Quincies and agreed with Shinigamis are any indication of what other Quincies were doing. And you know what they were doing?

    http://www.mangareader.net/bleach/531/15

    Probably THIS. That's why Ryuken said "Purebloods shouldn't waste their bloodso easily".


    Quote Quote:
    That not a single quincy thought "Well, my actual options right now are to not go there and let everyone die or go there and die with them.... Sorry folks, of to watch "how I met your mother" reruns". Alternatively, it seems like you are suggesting that every mixed blood quincy got into a situation like that of ichigo's. That every mixed blood quincy had his family attacked by a hollow even though we have every reason to believe hollow attacks are relatively rare to begin with.
    You know what quilty consience is? You think reason is all that matters in life? xD "I either do nothing and watch them die or I try to save them, it's not like a human can't possibly harm Hollow right? Nah, Imma watch HIMYM reruns and I won't feel bad for it".

    Read about the guy who dropped the bomb on Hiroshima.

    Quote Quote:
    I would argue that ultimately katagiri being weak from the start was not too relevant to her actually dying or it might have just speed up the process. As you said, everyone died and it is improbable every mixed blood quincy had a weak constitution (although the idea of her being that weak is weird if we consider she was capable of fighting). Masaki should not be considered here because she was not a mixed blood quincy, her situation was different.
    Okay now, weak body is different than a weak Quincy. her body couldn't handle her body being stripped out of power. That doesn't mean she couldn't fight as a Quincy. Look at Gremmy. His body was... well, he didn't have one. His power? Formidable.

    Quote Quote:
    Good question about ichigo although that is precisely the part of the events that was skipped. Considering the exceptional situations around masaki being involved in the selection at all it is plausible we have not seen everything surrounding those events and they will be relevant in the future.
    Urahara came to save them and chased it away? Ryuken? Yhwach personally came to save his grandson because he made a mistake in killing his daughter because he didn't know she became Gemischt? Either way I doubt Grand Fisher would be alive after that. It must have been someone weak. Tatsuki kin geri'd the guy? Or it's a plothole that won't be explained.
    Last edited by Duniak; May 11, 2014 at 03:30 PM.

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    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Hint of Soul King being an Enemy!

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    I forgot the noble house of Ishidas and the guy who was supposed to be leading Quincy, whose father was opposing other Quincies and agreed with Shinigamis are any indication of what other Quincies were doing. And you know what they were doing?

    http://www.mangareader.net/bleach/531/15

    Probably THIS. That's why Ryuken said "Purebloods shouldn't waste their bloodso easily".




    You know what quilty consience is? You think reason is all that matters in life? xD "I either do nothing and watch them die or I try to save them, it's not like a human can't possibly harm Hollow right? Nah, Imma watch HIMYM reruns and I won't feel bad for it".

    Read about the guy who dropped the bomb on Hiroshima.



    Okay now, weak body is different than a weak Quincy. her body couldn't handle her body being stripped out of power. That doesn't mean she couldn't fight as a Quincy. Look at Gremmy. His body was... well, he didn't have one. His power? Formidable.



    Urahara came to save them and chased it away? Ryuken? Yhwach personally came to save his grandson because he made a mistake in killing his daughter because he didn't know she became Gemischt? Either way I doubt Grand Fisher would be alive after that. It must have been someone weak. Tatsuki kin geri'd the guy? Or it's a plothole that won't be explained.
    Even in that scenario it would seem like the quincy generally have a policy of letting shinigami handle stuff. The bit with the mixed blood quincy going first and whatnot comes after that.

    But then that takes us back to the bit about how likely it is that every quincy involved in the selection just happened to die due to reasons unrelated to the selection. Did each and every powerless mixed blood feel guilty at not intervening in hollow attacks which they could do nothing to stop? Even knowing that without actual power it was extremely likely that they would simply make a bad situation worst by adding to the body count? Heck, even if what killed every quincy was a combination of all the stuff you mentioned it would still add up to something incredibly improbable. Being fair, if what did kill them was any of the things you have suggested or a combination of them then at least even by dumb luck there should be a few mixed blood quincy left... Yet there aren't as far as we know. Its not just about reason and common sense, intervening in that state is just plain suicide.

    Personally I thought that in masaki's case juhabach specifically aimed to murder her. She did not actually become a hybrid, white was there but the actual merging of souls was prevented via the gigai. Her being a part of the selection in itself and just happening to die is weird altogether. Its not like being like she was is something that juhabach would personally take a stance against. He had no trouble making ichigo a part of his army, he had a couple of expendable arrancar and he even invited aizen to join him. So if having a hollow inside of her is not a problem as far as we know (even arrancar are ok) and she was a part of a selection she was not supposed to be a part of then it makes sense that juhabach went out of her way to specifically target her. My crackpot theory on the matter is that the whole thing was a scheme to kidnap ichigo that did not go quite right.

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    Re: Hint of Soul King being an Enemy!

    hes probaby tired of his existance and wants to pass it on to somebody. Which will be determined after Bach vs Ichigo. The winner becomes soul king.

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    Re: Hint of Soul King being an Enemy!

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Even in that scenario it would seem like the quincy generally have a policy of letting shinigami handle stuff. The bit with the mixed blood quincy going first and whatnot comes after that.
    Quincy who always went to kill Hollows themselves magically decided to let Shinigami handle it. Nah, what changed their attitude was the massacre. Not to mention Ishidas are one of few Quincy houses who actually agreed with Shinigamis. They don't speak for the rest of them.

    Quote Quote:
    But then that takes us back to the bit about how likely it is that every quincy involved in the selection just happened to die due to reasons unrelated to the selection. Did each and every powerless mixed blood feel guilty at not intervening in hollow attacks which they could do nothing to stop? Even knowing that without actual power it was extremely likely that they would simply make a bad situation worst by adding to the body count? Heck, even if what killed every quincy was a combination of all the stuff you mentioned it would still add up to something incredibly improbable. Being fair, if what did kill them was any of the things you have suggested or a combination of them then at least even by dumb luck there should be a few mixed blood quincy left... Yet there aren't as far as we know. Its not just about reason and common sense, intervening in that state is just plain suicide.

    Young emotional, unexperienced ones felt guilt, old, experienced, indifferent Quincies who knew their place didn't give a shit. Then we have Ishidas, who were both young and didn't give a shit.

    If every Quincy had died because of Selection Isshin wouldn't have said that Katagiri felt into coma died because she was weak. It implies that Quincies who were not weak could actually live. At least they didn't fall into coma.

    Quote Quote:
    Personally I thought that in masaki's case juhabach specifically aimed to murder her. She did not actually become a hybrid, white was there but the actual merging of souls was prevented via the gigai. Her being a part of the selection in itself and just happening to die is weird altogether. Its not like being like she was is something that juhabach would personally take a stance against. He had no trouble making ichigo a part of his army, he had a couple of expendable arrancar and he even invited aizen to join him. So if having a hollow inside of her is not a problem as far as we know (even arrancar are ok) and she was a part of a selection she was not supposed to be a part of then it makes sense that juhabach went out of her way to specifically target her. My crackpot theory on the matter is that the whole thing was a scheme to kidnap ichigo that did not go quite right.

    Whole Selection just to take Ichigo? Ishida would hold a grudge against Ichigo then... if he didn't exist, his mother wouldn't have died.

    The question is, how does Selection work? If it something like Juha thinking "All not pureblooded Quincies lose their powers", then Juha might not have known that Masaki stopped being pureblooded and would be included in this "rule". When he finished selection he felt her power in him and boom, he killed his daughter!

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    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Hint of Soul King being an Enemy!

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Quincy who always went to kill Hollows themselves magically decided to let Shinigami handle it. Nah, what changed their attitude was the massacre. Not to mention Ishidas are one of few Quincy houses who actually agreed with Shinigamis. They don't speak for the rest of them.




    Young emotional, unexperienced ones felt guilt, old, experienced, indifferent Quincies who knew their place didn't give a shit. Then we have Ishidas, who were both young and didn't give a shit.

    If every Quincy had died because of Selection Isshin wouldn't have said that Katagiri felt into coma died because she was weak. It implies that Quincies who were not weak could actually live. At least they didn't fall into coma.




    Whole Selection just to take Ichigo? Ishida would hold a grudge against Ichigo then... if he didn't exist, his mother wouldn't have died.

    The question is, how does Selection work? If it something like Juha thinking "All not pureblooded Quincies lose their powers", then Juha might not have known that Masaki stopped being pureblooded and would be included in this "rule". When he finished selection he felt her power in him and boom, he killed his daughter!
    What changed their attitudes is not particularly relevant, what is relevant is what quincy were doing at that time. We also don't have the details to actually assume that second bit either.... All we know is that after the massacre there weren't that many quincy ( the exact number is a mystery although over a century mayuri experimented on couple thousand of them IIRC), that the ones we saw had a non interference policy and that they all died after the selection.

    Any scenario where you assume that was killed every quincy was something different from the selection has the implicit assumption that they were lemmings... You are still assuming that each and every quincy involved in the selection had some form of a deathwish which was purposely realized. Whatever happened to the quincy has to be directly or at least indirectly caused by the selection itself. If your idea is true then it would seem like the collective deathwish an entirely population got would be related to the selection too in which case its also the same as juhabach mass murdering them.

    As for the ishin bit, we have ishin's testimony vs juhabach's. From what I gather ishin either hid some stuff from ichigo or he is simply not familiar with the details regarding the selection.

    No, I didn't mean it as a selection to take ichigo. More of an scenario that the selection was something that was already going to happen and in the midst of it he would specifically aim to reclaim his little piece of soul from masaki to get a good chance to take ichigo himself.

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    Re: Hint of Soul King being an Enemy!

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    What changed their attitudes is not particularly relevant, what is relevant is what quincy were doing at that time. We also don't have the details to actually assume that second bit either.... All we know is that after the massacre there weren't that many quincy ( the exact number is a mystery although over a century mayuri experimented on couple thousand of them IIRC), that the ones we saw had a non interference policy and that they all died after the selection.

    But the fact Ishidas were the exception stays the same.

    Quote Quote:
    Any scenario where you assume that was killed every quincy was something different from the selection has the implicit assumption that they were lemmings... You are still assuming that each and every quincy involved in the selection had some form of a deathwish which was purposely realized. Whatever happened to the quincy has to be directly or at least indirectly caused by the selection itself. If your idea is true then it would seem like the collective deathwish an entirely population got would be related to the selection too in which case its also the same as juhabach mass murdering them.
    Manga made it every clear Katagiri went into coma because she was weak. She didn't even die immediately. And unless everyone was weak, you can't prove anything to me, as you guess is as good as mine.

    Quote Quote:
    As for the ishin bit, we have ishin's testimony vs juhabach's. From what I gather ishin either hid some stuff from ichigo or he is simply not familiar with the details regarding the selection.
    It still a manga fact, and unless proven otherwise, we can't assume it's not true. I could say Yhwach slept for so long, that he's mad and didn't remember what he did, as he's 1000 years old and Alzheimer is pretty common. Isshin did the gut spilling he talked about, no reason to hide anything.

    Quote Quote:
    No, I didn't mean it as a selection to take ichigo. More of an scenario that the selection was something that was already going to happen and in the midst of it he would specifically aim to reclaim his little piece of soul from masaki to get a good chance to take ichigo himself.
    How would killing Masaki make it easier for them to take him? Wouldn't it be easier to recruit Masaki and Ichigo instead of killing Masaki and making Ichigo hate him?

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