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Thread: Hint of Soul King being an Enemy!

  1. #46
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Hint of Soul King being an Enemy!

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    But the fact Ishidas were the exception stays the same.



    Manga made it every clear Katagiri went into coma because she was weak. She didn't even die immediately. And unless everyone was weak, you can't prove anything to me, as you guess is as good as mine.



    It still a manga fact, and unless proven otherwise, we can't assume it's not true. I could say Yhwach slept for so long, that he's mad and didn't remember what he did, as he's 1000 years old and Alzheimer is pretty common. Isshin did the gut spilling he talked about, no reason to hide anything.



    How would killing Masaki make it easier for them to take him? Wouldn't it be easier to recruit Masaki and Ichigo instead of killing Masaki and making Ichigo hate him?
    Thats not a fact at all... We barely saw any other quincy. More so, if there had been quincy around fighting hollows back in the day they would not be considered such a rarity. Ishin even made a point of not mentioning masaki in his report to yamamoto. If quincy hunting hollows before the selection was such a common thing that even after loosing their powers they had a need to hunt them then there would have been no need for such a thing, ishin could have as easily mentioned masaki and it would not have made a difference, it would have been just another instance of a quincy eliminating a hollow.

    But EVERYONE died. We are talking about whatever afflicted the quincy having 100% lethality. Only ishida survived on his own (even nodt was saved by juhabach) and that was enough for juhabach to draw him in and give him his own letter for whatever reason. Ishida being a survivor of the selection is only relevant if there is an implicit merit to surviving it as the selection itself does not represent any danger whatsoever to quincy.

    We know juhabach was neither sleeping nor delusional back then, we saw him, presumably not too long after the selection, saving nodt. Juhabach was very well awake when it took place. Without juhabach there can't be stern riter either, the letters have to be given by him via a ritual. I doubt juhabach could create wandenreich in 9 years.... Not to mention that the volstandig itself seems to be 200 years old if we consider kirge's words on it (which also suggests wandenreich has been active for a long time).

  2. #47
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    Re: Hint of Soul King being an Enemy!

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Thats not a fact at all... We barely saw any other quincy. More so, if there had been quincy around fighting hollows back in the day they would not be considered such a rarity. Ishin even made a point of not mentioning masaki in his report to yamamoto. If quincy hunting hollows before the selection was such a common thing that even after loosing their powers they had a need to hunt them then there would have been no need for such a thing, ishin could have as easily mentioned masaki and it would not have made a difference, it would have been just another instance of a quincy eliminating a hollow.

    But EVERYONE died. We are talking about whatever afflicted the quincy having 100% lethality. Only ishida survived on his own (even nodt was saved by juhabach) and that was enough for juhabach to draw him in and give him his own letter for whatever reason. Ishida being a survivor of the selection is only relevant if there is an implicit merit to surviving it as the selection itself does not represent any danger whatsoever to quincy.

    We know juhabach was neither sleeping nor delusional back then, we saw him, presumably not too long after the selection, saving nodt. Juhabach was very well awake when it took place. Without juhabach there can't be stern riter either, the letters have to be given by him via a ritual. I doubt juhabach could create wandenreich in 9 years.... Not to mention that the volstandig itself seems to be 200 years old if we consider kirge's words on it (which also suggests wandenreich has been active for a long time).
    Well Ichigo, Karin and Yuzu survived too. But that could be cause Ichigo inherited Zangetsu whose ability's are hollow based which would be poison to Bach.
    I doubt that the SK is good too, cause Isshin seems to have a personal beef with him. Seeing that Isshin seems to have completly turned his back on SS and not aiding them once.

  3. #48
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Hint of Soul King being an Enemy!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mohsen View Post
    Well Ichigo, Karin and Yuzu survived too. But that could be cause Ichigo inherited Zangetsu whose ability's are hollow based which would be poison to Bach.
    I doubt that the SK is good too, cause Isshin seems to have a personal beef with him. Seeing that Isshin seems to have completly turned his back on SS and not aiding them once.
    Well, yeah, though they are not precisely quincy.... And even if they were potential candidates for the selection there would be other considerations. If ishida survived because he has power that surpasses juhabach then it is extremely likely that under the same logic ichigo and his sisters would also survive. The 3 of them are more than quincy, it is extremely likely that the power and potential of the 3 of them far exceeds that of any other living or spirit being. Ichigo in particular once turned into a god....

    I doubt the thing with ishin is him having a beef with the king. SS is not likely to look kindly on a captain running of to the human world and breeding cute little gods among ants like its not big deal. If found out it would not be surprising if ishin ended up forced to go back to SS or something of the sort. I think it makes sense that even with SS newfound liberalism thanks to ichigo he would rather keep a low profile and avoid detection (although at this point it would be weird if ishin has not been found out, you'd think SS would have ichigo's family investigated if they want to know why a god was born in the human world).

  4. #49
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    Re: Hint of Soul King being an Enemy!

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Thats not a fact at all... We barely saw any other quincy. More so, if there had been quincy around fighting hollows back in the day they would not be considered such a rarity. Ishin even made a point of not mentioning masaki in his report to yamamoto. If quincy hunting hollows before the selection was such a common thing that even after loosing their powers they had a need to hunt them then there would have been no need for such a thing, ishin could have as easily mentioned masaki and it would not have made a difference, it would have been just another instance of a quincy eliminating a hollow.
    It was made pretty clear when they talked about Souken. Quincies didn't agree, Souken did. Souken= Ishidas, so I think it can be considered a fact.

    Quote Quote:
    But EVERYONE died. We are talking about whatever afflicted the quincy having 100% lethality. Only ishida survived on his own (even nodt was saved by juhabach) and that was enough for juhabach to draw him in and give him his own letter for whatever reason. Ishida being a survivor of the selection is only relevant if there is an implicit merit to surviving it as the selection itself does not represent any danger whatsoever to quincy.
    Yhwach needed a reason to make Uryu stay close to him without pissing off SRs. There you go, a reason as good as your "Isshin was lying". What you're writing is still an assumption... His "surviving" is connected to keeping his powers, not actually surviving after LOSING them. He never lost it, so it's no big feat.

    Quote Quote:
    We know juhabach was neither sleeping nor delusional back then, we saw him, presumably not too long after the selection, saving nodt. Juhabach was very well awake when it took place. Without juhabach there can't be stern riter either, the letters have to be given by him via a ritual. I doubt juhabach could create wandenreich in 9 years.... Not to mention that the volstandig itself seems to be 200 years old if we consider kirge's words on it (which also suggests wandenreich has been active for a long time).
    You don't say? Saying Yhwach has Alzheimer and can't remember has just as much sense as saying Isshin just didn't know what he was saying and hid something.

  5. #50
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    Re: Hint of Soul King being an Enemy!

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Well, yeah, though they are not precisely quincy.... And even if they were potential candidates for the selection there would be other considerations. If ishida survived because he has power that surpasses juhabach then it is extremely likely that under the same logic ichigo and his sisters would also survive. The 3 of them are more than quincy, it is extremely likely that the power and potential of the 3 of them far exceeds that of any other living or spirit being. Ichigo in particular once turned into a god....

    I doubt the thing with ishin is him having a beef with the king. SS is not likely to look kindly on a captain running of to the human world and breeding cute little gods among ants like its not big deal. If found out it would not be surprising if ishin ended up forced to go back to SS or something of the sort. I think it makes sense that even with SS newfound liberalism thanks to ichigo he would rather keep a low profile and avoid detection (although at this point it would be weird if ishin has not been found out, you'd think SS would have ichigo's family investigated if they want to know why a god was born in the human world).
    Acutally all the Shinigami captains in the FKKT arc saw isshin fight Aizen. At least Unohana did. And Shunsui even visisted him beofre the second SR invasion. And when Ichigo was sent into the human world by Nijima it didn't look like getting ready to clash with the Quincy's. I mean even if he ignores the G13 captains what about his former squad. I mean Toshirou and Rangiku are getting trashed badly this arc. So should he at least help them?

  6. #51
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Hint of Soul King being an Enemy!

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    It was made pretty clear when they talked about Souken. Quincies didn't agree, Souken did. Souken= Ishidas, so I think it can be considered a fact.



    Yhwach needed a reason to make Uryu stay close to him without pissing off SRs. There you go, a reason as good as your "Isshin was lying". What you're writing is still an assumption... His "surviving" is connected to keeping his powers, not actually surviving after LOSING them. He never lost it, so it's no big feat.



    You don't say? Saying Yhwach has Alzheimer and can't remember has just as much sense as saying Isshin just didn't know what he was saying and hid something.
    Souken is pretty much a mystery here. We know he had some dealings with wandenreich because of kirge and then by the time he taught ishida how to be a quincy he was a lonely old man apparently living in the woods. Souken was an ishida but your logic does not necessarily apply considering that during ishin's flashback he was nowhere to be seen (fifth field or something if I recall) and by the time we saw him in uryu's flashback the mixed blood quincy were long gone and we have every reason to believe he did not get along with ryuken, the one who inherited the title of the last quincy.

    Of course it is a feat, we have no reason to believe that it was their ability to fight that allowed them to stay alive. The most likely scenario is that they all lost their powers following the selection however the claim that they died because they could not fight back against something suggest an scenario which seems overwhelmingly improbable at best. The most likely scenario is that the selection took away their powers and then within a short time they just died, independently of whether they were attacked or not. Just look at the most objective piece of information we have regarding juhabach's power:
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...79-page-3.html
    Quote Quote:
    [Text: At the moment of their deaths... // ...those fragments returned to the baby. // None who touched the baby lived for much longer. // A few years... // A few months... // Some even died after a few days. // Yet even so... / The people continued to gather around the baby. // As he regained the fragments of his soul that he had shared out... // ...the baby’s immobile arms and legs... // ...and his unseeing eyes began to heal. // In time... // ...when the baby’s deaf ears became able to hear... // ...he realised that the people had begun to call him by an unusual name.]
    Even when juhabach was a baby people were just dying shortly after touching him. At this stage the manga did not go into a lot of detail regarding the order of things (retrieving the pieces of soul and then they die or they die and the pieces of soul return) however the scenario is disturbingly similar to what happens during the selection. In any scenario the direct cause of death is juhabach (except that perhaps as a baby he would have done so not as intentionally while now he calculates wars and genocides of his enemies and his own people for profit), even during the past selection. Loosing their bit of juhabach causes affected quincy to loose their powers and die independently of them getting attacked by hollows.

  7. #52
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    Re: Hint of Soul King being an Enemy!

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Souken is pretty much a mystery here. We know he had some dealings with wandenreich because of kirge and then by the time he taught ishida how to be a quincy he was a lonely old man apparently living in the woods. Souken was an ishida but your logic does not necessarily apply considering that during ishin's flashback he was nowhere to be seen (fifth field or something if I recall) and by the time we saw him in uryu's flashback the mixed blood quincy were long gone and we have every reason to believe he did not get along with ryuken, the one who inherited the title of the last quincy.
    Yeah, Souken was training on the fifth field. Does it mean his family didn't follow his way of thinking? Both Uryu (talk with Ichigo) and Ryuken ("we should let Shinigami handle it") agreed, from what we've seen til now.

    Quote Quote:
    Of course it is a feat, we have no reason to believe that it was their ability to fight that allowed them to stay alive. The most likely scenario is that they all lost their powers following the selection however the claim that they died because they could not fight back against something suggest an scenario which seems overwhelmingly improbable at best. The most likely scenario is that the selection took away their powers and then within a short time they just died, independently of whether they were attacked or not. Just look at the most objective piece of information we have regarding juhabach's power:
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...79-page-3.htmlEven when juhabach was a baby people were just dying shortly after touching him. At this stage the manga did not go into a lot of detail regarding the order of things (retrieving the pieces of soul and then they die or they die and the pieces of soul return) however the scenario is disturbingly similar to what happens during the selection. In any scenario the direct cause of death is juhabach (except that perhaps as a baby he would have done so not as intentionally while now he calculates wars and genocides of his enemies and his own people for profit), even during the past selection. Loosing their bit of juhabach causes affected quincy to loose their powers and die independently of them getting attacked by hollows.
    The most objective piece of information says that people who had his power didn't live for long. Nothing about what happened when they had that power forcibly removed. It's NOTHING like selection. We're talking about when you LIVE and have your power TAKEN. And this panel is NOT about living, it's about Yhwach getting it back when you DIE.

    Nah, it's still not a big feat to stay alive for short while. Katagiri stayed alive for 3 months or so, Masaki was just fine. Unless you prove to me, that they're specials cases, you can give up on saying "JUHA KILLED EM!"
    Last edited by Duniak; May 21, 2014 at 11:23 AM.

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