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Translations: Gintama 507 (2)
In the anime version, this is how it goes
Bb: "Everything is useless before my darkness, even that strength of yours; however, it would be a shame to waste that power... Ace be my Nakama."
Ace: "If I surrender my power to you, there will no point in me being a man"
The conversation begins at 15.56.
Do you still find it relevant to D?
Ace isn't the only special one, but all of them(Wb pirates) are his family.
WB knew he wasn't the man Roger was waiting for, so he didn't go after OP, as Roger asked him if he wanted to know how to get there.WB was never interested in becoming the pirate king, or in treasures, he wanted to have a family, which ultimately he did.Then WB met Ace and asked him to join. He brought him on his ship, and Ace tried to kill him in his sleep lol.Why bring along someone who wants to kill you, even if he has no chance to?If he didn't want Ace to be the next pirate king, then what was it? Was he trying to make amends by taking care of his rival's son? No I think he genuinely thought that Ace was the man Roger was waiting for, because of the blood of course, but also because he also wants to be PK, just like his father. Sengoku might have lied or disguised the truth I give you that, but I think there's a part of truth in that lie, that WB's original motive was to take the son of the late PK on his ship, because who better than the son of the PK to follow the footsteps of his father?But ultimately when he was dying I think that he figured out that Luffy was that man.
Last edited by ladylola; May 16, 2014 at 05:03 PM.
The point i was making is that those with the initial D. always end up at the right place at the right time to change world events; and everyone in the One Piece world that seems to know about the will of D. knows this as well. On top of that, those of the Roger pirate crew including Crokus, Shanks, Rayleigh, and Roger (Buggy seems to be an exception) as well as Whitebeard who was Roger's friend and rival seems to know that certain events are going to happen in a certain order and no matter how powerful they are, if they're not meant to be a part of it, all they can do is help the one who will make those events happen.
For example, Rayleigh told Robin "we found out the entire history" (probably meaning that he was with Roger at the Rio Poneglyph which Roger could read with the ability to hear the voice of all things). He also told her that even if he told her everything, as she was at that point, she couldn't do anything; and also "we (Roger pirates) and the people of Ohara may all have a little too hasty" meaning they weren't the ones to affect the change that was expected based on what the poneglyph said. I believe he was saying that as the strawhats traveled on step by step, things will happen that will bring about the final events.
Based on Robin's conversation with King Neptune, Joy Boy apologized for breaking a promise 800 years ago; BUT, it was foretold that someone would fulfill the promise on his behalf one day and for that reason Noah was built. For this to be true, some kind of future event had to be known to happen beforehand to start building Noah from such a long time ago. Also, whoever predicted such a thing would have had to know that this person representing Joy Boy had to show up exactly during a window of time when Poseidon was alive and active (not a little kid or an old lady in her deathbed).
Basically, Rayleigh being as strong as he is didn't even bother interfering with world events not even being afraid of admirals as he was... even having known the "entire history." Instead he seems to just be sitting back and watching how things turn out like he's already played his part. After the marineford war, he took it upon himself to train Luffy placing his bets on him just like Shanks and Whitebeard. But then he says something like "It may just be that there is no such thing as coincidence in this world. As though it was meant to be... Mysterious bonds slowly but surely weave their forms" (chapter 603).
I'm not saying this is exactly or the only way it can turn out... it's just the way I see it for now based on bits and pieces I've picked up along the way.
He probably told the Straw Hats to travel more and see more of the world so the conclusion they arrived at would be more positive than the Jolly Roger pirates' conclusion.
Last edited by Anduren; May 16, 2014 at 07:48 PM.
Wb took Ace long before he knew he was his rival's son. Ace, after his numerous attempts on Wb's life and after he finally accepted Wb's fatherly love & tattooed Wb's insignia on his back, he told Wb his secret. Wb was a little surprised and responded to it like it was no big deal. He said that everyone is a child of the sea.
Your interpretations contradicts Wb's words about Ace: that he isn't the only special one. Trying to make Ace the PK means that he favors him above all the rest, but, from his words to Squardo, we know that isn't true. If it isn't true, then his endeavor of creating the next PK isn't, either. Furthermore, as you said, Wb has no interest in One Piece. If he has interest in making Ace the next PK that would mean he has interest in One Piece. It doesn't add up.
The explanation for why Wb recruited Ace as his nakama is that he has a soft spot for people like him.(Bottom panels) He would've tried to recruit Luffy if their roles(of Ace & Luffy) had been reversed(or anybody else for that matter).
I will argue just some of the top paragraph because I agree with the rest(of the paragraphs).
Indeed we were given lots of information through lots of characters by the author, but the info. we were given wasn't always true. We were given info. that Ace will be executed at a particular time, but Sengoku didn't adhere to his word. We were given info that Wb had sold his men, and we were also given info that Wb hadn't sold his men; and just as Wb started divulging that, Sengoku urged Aokiji to stop the world from knowing that by freezing the den den muchi that records what was happening along with its holders(Buggy & co).
When Wb finished his conversation with Squardo, he said that Sengoku hasn't lost his touch, making it clear that he was the one who came up with that manipulative idea. The deceptive idea Sengoku came up with was proven to be a lie by WB when he not only has revealed the truth to Squardo while embracing him but also given other pirates who thought they were deceived by him (Wb) an escape route. The whole war has been maneuvered by him(Sengoku).
Thanks. I didn't know where to look quite honestly. Here,
What do you think?Quote:
Last edited by Australopithecus; May 16, 2014 at 09:21 PM.
I believe Sengoku ordered the transmission terminated just before the pacifista army showed up. Having the whole world see that the marines were using such human weapons would've been a public relations nightmare for them. I mean, we just found out in Punk Hazard that they have been doing experiments to create a Giant army for such a long time. At least that's what I thought when that whole incident took place when he said "It would be troublesome to have the world lose faith in us" (chapter 561). When it comes to war, using trickery isn't really off limits... but human experimentation is still a big no-no. But I just re-read that part and I can see what you mean about how it was all Sengoku's planning. That still doesn't mean everything Sengoku said about Ace and Whitebeard in the begining were lies because if they were, it would've been refuted somehow at some point by now (based on Oda's style of handling lying characters).
lol Sorry about my long posts.
And such vague translation could lead us to many kinds of interpretations.
It was already refuted in the storyline by Wb himself.
Begin reading from here and then continue here. It was refuted here
Sengoku said that Wb recruited Ace because he had realized that he was Roger's son, but, when Ace revealed his secret(that he was Roger's son) to Wb, Wb was surprised.
Would a man who had known all along Ace's true identity be surprised? Of course not One of them is a liar, and we know that Wb isn't. Did you see how the supernovae thought of him when he was falsely accused of selling his sons? Some said that he is a legend exactly because he wouldn't do that.(middle panel on the left)
Furthermore, like I said to Miss Lola,Quote:
Thank you for such kind words. People like you make me really glad to be here.Quote:
Don't worry about it; your posts are gems. I enjoy reading them
lol I did end up going back and rereading a lot of old stuff thanks to this discussion and it has changed my perspective on what actually happened so I have to thank you for that. So I take back what I said here:
That would then mean that he doesn't know Wb well. The supernovae, who are just rookies that hadn't made it yet to the New World, seemed to know him better than how he was described.
When he was conversing with Shanks on board the Moby Dick, Wb listed the people who knew the sea very well, and Sengoku was among them. It would be paradoxical if Sengoku knew the sea that well whereas he didn't know the character of one of the sea's most known men. Let's not mention that he is a strategist - a man who uses his brain to think thing through from many facets.
Also, let's not forget that for the "Squardo Strategy" to work, he has know of Squardo's past and understand thoroughly his character. Seeing how it worked flawlessly, I must say that he is proficient at that as well.
What's more, Sengoku's serpentine manner of dealing with his opponent makes me suspicious of his words.
The pleasure was mine, Mr. Anduren This discussion was beneficial for the both of us, so thank you too.Quote:
I concur. When they made preparation for waging the war against him, not only did they marshal an army that comprised infantrymen, vice admirals, 7 war lords, admirals and the fleet admiral but also came up with an efficient strategy that checkmated Wb in very few moves. How then would they take Ace from under the nose of a man against whom all of these extreme preparations were made? By sending in 3 admirals? It's not enough, and can result in the loss of a great military fraction.