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Thread: The Will of D. Mystery Revealed?

  1. #31
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Australopithecus's Avatar
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    Re: The Will of D. Mystery Revealed?

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    Could be, or he could be talking about how the ones with D are oppressed or face difficulty.


    Given the quotation marks around the "force" and the way he says it, I think it's more than that. Maybe Whitebeard told him about the Will of D in hopes that Ace was the one who would succeed Roger and realize Roger's dream. The force could be something like fate, as mentioned, or it could be something about how the D have odds against them.

    In the anime version, this is how it goes
    Bb: "Everything is useless before my darkness, even that strength of yours; however, it would be a shame to waste that power... Ace be my Nakama."
    Ace: "If I surrender my power to you, there will no point in me being a man"

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxnjZ-RrDSg#t=956

    The conversation begins at 15.56.

    Do you still find it relevant to D?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anduren View Post
    I'm inclined to believe this. In chapter 551 Sengoku pointed out how Whitebeard took Ace in and protected him, grooming him to be the next pirate king when Ace himself was claiming since Arabasta that he wanted to make Whitebeard the pirate king and not himself. He was fighting the will of D. (or fate) that whole time. The whole theme of people having the D. initial always show up at times and places where revolutions happen and the beginning and end of an era is approaching; as well as how fate (or luck) seems to protect or thrust into danger those same people supports the idea that the timeline of One Piece (from past to future) is set and recorded in the poneglyphs which is why both Gol D. Roger and Whitebeard knows that when One Piece is found, the world will definitely be turned up side down and they're waiting for the specific person that is to be expected to do this very thing.
    Spoiler show
    Did you seriously believe his words? Sengoku was lying. He had been tarnishing Wb's image all along the war. By saying that Wb took Ace and started raising him to be the next pirate king, he was justifying the cause of the war. The blood-relation revelation is another one too. To make a lie seem very credible, he mixed it with the truth. He is saying, in other words, that they will protect their dear, lovable citizens from another Roger even if it means going to war with Wb himself. From Ace's flashback, you have seen how abhorred Roger was by citizens around the globe. The evidence of this lie is Wb's response to Squardo. He said that Ace isn't the only special one, but all of them(Wb pirates) are his family.

  2. #32
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member ladylola's Avatar
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    Re: The Will of D. Mystery Revealed?

    WB knew he wasn't the man Roger was waiting for, so he didn't go after OP, as Roger asked him if he wanted to know how to get there.WB was never interested in becoming the pirate king, or in treasures, he wanted to have a family, which ultimately he did.Then WB met Ace and asked him to join. He brought him on his ship, and Ace tried to kill him in his sleep lol.Why bring along someone who wants to kill you, even if he has no chance to?If he didn't want Ace to be the next pirate king, then what was it? Was he trying to make amends by taking care of his rival's son? No I think he genuinely thought that Ace was the man Roger was waiting for, because of the blood of course, but also because he also wants to be PK, just like his father. Sengoku might have lied or disguised the truth I give you that, but I think there's a part of truth in that lie, that WB's original motive was to take the son of the late PK on his ship, because who better than the son of the PK to follow the footsteps of his father?But ultimately when he was dying I think that he figured out that Luffy was that man.
    Last edited by ladylola; May 16, 2014 at 05:03 PM.

  3. #33
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Anduren's Avatar
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    Re: The Will of D. Mystery Revealed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Australopithecus View Post
    Did you seriously believe his words? Sengoku was lying. He had been tarnishing Wb's image all along the war. By saying that Wb took Ace and started raising him to be the next pirate king, he was justifying the cause of the war. The blood-relation revelation is another one too. To make a lie seem very credible, he mixed it with the truth. He is saying, in other words, that they will protect their dear, lovable citizens from another Roger even if it means going to war with Wb himself. From Ace's flashback, you have seen how abhorred Roger was by citizens around the globe. The evidence of this lie is Wb's response to Squardo. He said that Ace isn't the only special one, but all of them(Wb pirates) are his family.
    Well....whether Sengoku was lying or not is pointless to speculate. The one who I'm taking seriously is Oda because Sengoku is only a character he made up through whom we were given that information (whether to mislead us or not is a different topic). Anyone can argue any kind of point in any debate regarding a manga saying whichever character you're using as a reference is lying... it was never mentioned or hinted in the manga that he was lying so you're asking for proof of a negative.

    The point i was making is that those with the initial D. always end up at the right place at the right time to change world events; and everyone in the One Piece world that seems to know about the will of D. knows this as well. On top of that, those of the Roger pirate crew including Crokus, Shanks, Rayleigh, and Roger (Buggy seems to be an exception) as well as Whitebeard who was Roger's friend and rival seems to know that certain events are going to happen in a certain order and no matter how powerful they are, if they're not meant to be a part of it, all they can do is help the one who will make those events happen.

    For example, Rayleigh told Robin "we found out the entire history" (probably meaning that he was with Roger at the Rio Poneglyph which Roger could read with the ability to hear the voice of all things). He also told her that even if he told her everything, as she was at that point, she couldn't do anything; and also "we (Roger pirates) and the people of Ohara may all have a little too hasty" meaning they weren't the ones to affect the change that was expected based on what the poneglyph said. I believe he was saying that as the strawhats traveled on step by step, things will happen that will bring about the final events.

    Based on Robin's conversation with King Neptune, Joy Boy apologized for breaking a promise 800 years ago; BUT, it was foretold that someone would fulfill the promise on his behalf one day and for that reason Noah was built. For this to be true, some kind of future event had to be known to happen beforehand to start building Noah from such a long time ago. Also, whoever predicted such a thing would have had to know that this person representing Joy Boy had to show up exactly during a window of time when Poseidon was alive and active (not a little kid or an old lady in her deathbed).

    Basically, Rayleigh being as strong as he is didn't even bother interfering with world events not even being afraid of admirals as he was... even having known the "entire history." Instead he seems to just be sitting back and watching how things turn out like he's already played his part. After the marineford war, he took it upon himself to train Luffy placing his bets on him just like Shanks and Whitebeard. But then he says something like "It may just be that there is no such thing as coincidence in this world. As though it was meant to be... Mysterious bonds slowly but surely weave their forms" (chapter 603).

    I'm not saying this is exactly or the only way it can turn out... it's just the way I see it for now based on bits and pieces I've picked up along the way.

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  5. #34
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: The Will of D. Mystery Revealed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Australopithecus View Post
    In the anime version, this is how it goes
    Bb: "Everything is useless before my darkness, even that strength of yours; however, it would be a shame to waste that power... Ace be my Nakama."
    Ace: "If I surrender my power to you, there will no point in me being a man"

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxnjZ-RrDSg#t=956

    The conversation begins at 15.56.

    Do you still find it relevant to D?
    I don't use anime, even for translation. This forum is a great resource for translations if you know where to look. Anime are not trustworthy.


    Quote Originally Posted by Anduren View Post
    For example, Rayleigh told Robin "we found out the entire history" (probably meaning that he was with Roger at the Rio Poneglyph which Roger could read with the ability to hear the voice of all things). He also told her that even if he told her everything, as she was at that point, she couldn't do anything; and also "we (Roger pirates) and the people of Ohara may all have a little too hasty" meaning they weren't the ones to affect the change that was expected based on what the poneglyph said. I believe he was saying that as the strawhats traveled on step by step, things will happen that will bring about the final events.
    I interpreted that as the Jolly Roger pirates finding devastating information when they learned about the Void Century, and how much they wished they could change what happened. Like, probably the start of the Fishmen being treated horribly and so many citizens dying so the World Government could form, maybe?

    He probably told the Straw Hats to travel more and see more of the world so the conclusion they arrived at would be more positive than the Jolly Roger pirates' conclusion.

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  7. #35
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Anduren's Avatar
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    Re: The Will of D. Mystery Revealed?

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    I interpreted that as the Jolly Roger pirates finding devastating information when they learned about the Void Century, and how much they wished they could change what happened. Like, probably the start of the Fishmen being treated horribly and so many citizens dying so the World Government could form, maybe?

    He probably told the Straw Hats to travel more and see more of the world so the conclusion they arrived at would be more positive than the Jolly Roger pirates' conclusion.
    That's certainly another possible and valid (logical) interpretation too. Yes. I was just interpreting it in the way I did to say that if it was interpreted in such a way it would support the possibility I was putting forth... so'z all
    Last edited by Anduren; May 16, 2014 at 07:48 PM.

  8. #36
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Australopithecus's Avatar
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    Re: The Will of D. Mystery Revealed?

    Quote Originally Posted by ladylola View Post
    WB knew he wasn't the man Roger was waiting for, so he didn't go after OP, as Roger asked him if he wanted to know how to get there.WB was never interested in becoming the pirate king, or in treasures, he wanted to have a family, which ultimately he did.Then WB met Ace and asked him to join. He brought him on his ship, and Ace tried to kill him in his sleep lol.Why bring along someone who wants to kill you, even if he has no chance to?If he didn't want Ace to be the next pirate king, then what was it? Was he trying to make amends by taking care of his rival's son? No I think he genuinely thought that Ace was the man Roger was waiting for, because of the blood of course, but also because he also wants to be PK, just like his father. Sengoku might have lied or disguised the truth I give you that, but I think there's a part of truth in that lie, that WB's original motive was to take the son of the late PK on his ship, because who better than the son of the PK to follow the footsteps of his father?But ultimately when he was dying I think that he figured out that Luffy was that man.
    It's not because he knew he wasn't the man Roger was waiting for that he didn't go after One Piece, but because of his lack of interest in treasures.

    Wb took Ace long before he knew he was his rival's son. Ace, after his numerous attempts on Wb's life and after he finally accepted Wb's fatherly love & tattooed Wb's insignia on his back, he told Wb his secret. Wb was a little surprised and responded to it like it was no big deal. He said that everyone is a child of the sea.
    Your interpretations contradicts Wb's words about Ace: that he isn't the only special one. Trying to make Ace the PK means that he favors him above all the rest, but, from his words to Squardo, we know that isn't true. If it isn't true, then his endeavor of creating the next PK isn't, either. Furthermore, as you said, Wb has no interest in One Piece. If he has interest in making Ace the next PK that would mean he has interest in One Piece. It doesn't add up.

    The explanation for why Wb recruited Ace as his nakama is that he has a soft spot for people like him.(Bottom panels) He would've tried to recruit Luffy if their roles(of Ace & Luffy) had been reversed(or anybody else for that matter).


    Quote Originally Posted by Anduren View Post
    Well....whether Sengoku was lying or not is pointless to speculate. The one who I'm taking seriously is Oda because Sengoku is only a character he made up through whom we were given that information (whether to mislead us or not is a different topic). Anyone can argue any kind of point in any debate regarding a manga saying whichever character you're using as a reference is lying... it was never mentioned or hinted in the manga that he was lying so you're asking for proof of a negative.

    Spoiler show


    I'm not saying this is exactly or the only way it can turn out... it's just the way I see it for now based on bits and pieces I've picked up along the way.
    Mr. Anduren, this is a great pleasure to be discussing things with you.


    I will argue just some of the top paragraph because I agree with the rest(of the paragraphs).
    Indeed we were given lots of information through lots of characters by the author, but the info. we were given wasn't always true. We were given info. that Ace will be executed at a particular time, but Sengoku didn't adhere to his word. We were given info that Wb had sold his men, and we were also given info that Wb hadn't sold his men; and just as Wb started divulging that, Sengoku urged Aokiji to stop the world from knowing that by freezing the den den muchi that records what was happening along with its holders(Buggy & co).
    When Wb finished his conversation with Squardo, he said that Sengoku hasn't lost his touch, making it clear that he was the one who came up with that manipulative idea. The deceptive idea Sengoku came up with was proven to be a lie by WB when he not only has revealed the truth to Squardo while embracing him but also given other pirates who thought they were deceived by him (Wb) an escape route. The whole war has been maneuvered by him(Sengoku).


    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    I don't use anime, even for translation. This forum is a great resource for translations if you know where to look. Anime are not trustworthy.




    Spoiler show

    Thanks. I didn't know where to look quite honestly. Here,

    Quote Quote:
    Page 14:
    Townspeople: Ba... Banana Rock is crumbling...!!
    Townperson: Something is happening... That's not something a human can do
    Hoodwoman: Not just the city...
    Person: What will happen to this island...
    Blackbeard: Look...
    Blackbeard: Before the Darkness, everything is futile!!
    Blackbeard: Zee....
    Blackbeard: Your strength is well known
    Blackbeard: But your power was still overcome...!!
    Blackbeard: Ace!! Become my nakama!!!

    Page 15:
    Ace: If I gave you my power, then there would be no point in having been born a man.
    Ace: I will never live with regrets in my life...!!! You got that, idiot?
    What do you think?
    Last edited by Australopithecus; May 16, 2014 at 09:21 PM.

  9. #37
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: The Will of D. Mystery Revealed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anduren View Post
    That's certainly another possible and valid (logical) interpretation too. Yes. I was just interpreting it in the way I did to say that if it was interpreted in such a way it would support the possibility I was putting forth... so'z all
    Wasn't trying to say your interpretation was wrong, but sharing different interpretations can help us figure out more stuff. Apart from few stuff, I think your interpretation is just as valid as mine is.
    Quote Originally Posted by Australopithecus View Post

    What do you think?
    I stand corrected. The two translations say the same thing you said the anime said, so I was wrong.

  10. #38
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Anduren's Avatar
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    Re: The Will of D. Mystery Revealed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Australopithecus View Post
    Indeed we were given lots of information through lots of characters by the author, but the info. we were given wasn't always true. We were given info. that Ace will be executed at a particular time, but Sengoku didn't adhere to his word. We were given info that Wb had sold his men, and we were also given info that Wb hadn't sold his men; and just as Wb started divulging that, Sengoku urged Aokiji to stop the world from knowing that by freezing the den den muchi that records what was happening along with its holders(Buggy & co).
    When Wb finished his conversation with Squardo, he said that Sengoku hasn't lost his touch, making it clear that he was the one who came up with that manipulative idea. The deceptive idea Sengoku came up with was proven to be a lie by WB when he not only has revealed the truth to Squardo while embracing him but also given other pirates who thought they were deceived by him (Wb) an escape route. The whole war has been maneuvered by him(Sengoku).
    You do make a good point! Its true that Sengoku was on top of everything and was leading the marines in the war. Its just that I was always under the impression that the whole lying and manipulating Squardo part of that war was done by Akainu. I mean, as far as I've noticed, there are other popular manga (Naruto or Bleach for example), where the author blatantly misleads the readers using "lying" characters just for the surprise factor. But in One Piece, Oda has always made it clear to the readers when a character was lying (whether by showing a sinister face afterwards or showing what they're thinking or explaining later what happened). So that's why I always associated what happened with Akainu and not so much Sengoku.

    I believe Sengoku ordered the transmission terminated just before the pacifista army showed up. Having the whole world see that the marines were using such human weapons would've been a public relations nightmare for them. I mean, we just found out in Punk Hazard that they have been doing experiments to create a Giant army for such a long time. At least that's what I thought when that whole incident took place when he said "It would be troublesome to have the world lose faith in us" (chapter 561). When it comes to war, using trickery isn't really off limits... but human experimentation is still a big no-no. But I just re-read that part and I can see what you mean about how it was all Sengoku's planning. That still doesn't mean everything Sengoku said about Ace and Whitebeard in the begining were lies because if they were, it would've been refuted somehow at some point by now (based on Oda's style of handling lying characters).

    Quote Originally Posted by Australopithecus View Post
    Mr. Anduren, this is a great pleasure to be discussing things with you.
    It truly is a pleasure . I've been around for a long time but don't post much anymore because civility these days isn't as common as years ago when all kinds of fun stuff were discussed. But there are still lots of good, smart and mature people here.

    lol Sorry about my long posts.

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  12. #39
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Australopithecus's Avatar
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    Re: The Will of D. Mystery Revealed?

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    I stand corrected. The two translations say the same thing you said the anime said, so I was wrong.
    Goodness me, no. I didn't mean it like that I was simply asking for your opinion, like whether the translation I provided was satisfactory. You are not wrong. The anime could have wrong stuff too. I don't remember where I saw that exactly, but the speech in anime could be different and lengthy than that of the manga. Even events could be utterly different than those in the manga. On the contrary, I was and still am grateful for pointing that out about One Piece anime.
    And such vague translation could lead us to many kinds of interpretations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anduren View Post
    Spoiler show


    Spoiler show
    But I just re-read that part and I can see what you mean about how it was all Sengoku's planning. That still doesn't mean everything Sengoku said about Ace and Whitebeard in the begining were lies because if they were, it would've been refuted somehow at some point by now (based on Oda's style of handling lying characters).




    Agreed.


    It was already refuted in the storyline by Wb himself.

    Begin reading from here and then continue here. It was refuted here

    Sengoku said that Wb recruited Ace because he had realized that he was Roger's son, but, when Ace revealed his secret(that he was Roger's son) to Wb, Wb was surprised.
    Would a man who had known all along Ace's true identity be surprised? Of course not One of them is a liar, and we know that Wb isn't. Did you see how the supernovae thought of him when he was falsely accused of selling his sons? Some said that he is a legend exactly because he wouldn't do that.(middle panel on the left)

    Furthermore, like I said to Miss Lola,
    Quote Quote:
    "trying to make Ace the PK means that he favors him above all the rest, but, from his words to Squardo, we know that isn't true. If isn't true, then his endeavor of creating the next PK isn't, either."

    Quote Quote:
    It truly is a pleasure . I've been around for a long time but don't post much anymore because civility these days isn't as common as years ago when all kinds of fun stuff were discussed. But there are still lots of good, smart and mature people here.

    lol Sorry about my long posts.
    Thank you for such kind words. People like you make me really glad to be here.

    Don't worry about it; your posts are gems. I enjoy reading them

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  14. #40
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Anduren's Avatar
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    Re: The Will of D. Mystery Revealed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Australopithecus View Post
    Sengoku said that Wb recruited Ace because he had realized that he was Roger's son, but, when Ace revealed his secret(that he was Roger's son) to Wb, Wb was surprised.
    Would a man who had known all along Ace's true identity be surprised? Of course not One of them is a liar, and we know that Wb isn't. Did you see how the supernovae thought of him when he was falsely accused of selling his sons? Some said that he is a legend exactly because he wouldn't do that.(middle panel on the left)
    You're right about Sengoku's words about the "why" Whitebeard took in Ace being a lie. Well, I suppose it could've been just his honest perspective on what Whitebeard was doing. For example, someone might cut you off on the road and you might think he was out to get you when the guy's just in a rush to get somewhere. But that doesn't change the fact that what he said about "why Whitebeard took in Ace" is false.

    lol I did end up going back and rereading a lot of old stuff thanks to this discussion and it has changed my perspective on what actually happened so I have to thank you for that. So I take back what I said here:

    Quote Originally Posted by Anduren View Post
    ...In chapter 551 Sengoku pointed out how Whitebeard took Ace in and protected him, grooming him to be the next pirate king when Ace himself was claiming since Arabasta that he wanted to make Whitebeard the pirate king and not himself....
    I guess though, regardless of the reason why Whitebeard took in Ace, it turned out in the One Piece timeline that Ace was protected from the World Government until a specific time (regardless of reason) until Luffy was in a situation to participate in the war of the best. If it hadn't happened this way, Luffy wouldn't have been able to inherit Ace's will as well as Gol D. Roger's will (which I guess happened much earlier?). As Whitebeard's last words were (in chapter 576), he was talking about a history that is going to be written hundreds of years into the future and an event that is definitely going to come which it seems even the world government seems to know about somehow and fears.

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    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Australopithecus's Avatar
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    Re: The Will of D. Mystery Revealed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anduren View Post
    You're right about Sengoku's words about the "why" Whitebeard took in Ace being a lie. Well, I suppose it could've been just his honest perspective on what Whitebeard was doing. For example, someone might cut you off on the road and you might think he was out to get you when the guy's just in a rush to get somewhere. But that doesn't change the fact that what he said about "why Whitebeard took in Ace" is false.

    That would then mean that he doesn't know Wb well. The supernovae, who are just rookies that hadn't made it yet to the New World, seemed to know him better than how he was described.

    When he was conversing with Shanks on board the Moby Dick, Wb listed the people who knew the sea very well, and Sengoku was among them. It would be paradoxical if Sengoku knew the sea that well whereas he didn't know the character of one of the sea's most known men. Let's not mention that he is a strategist - a man who uses his brain to think thing through from many facets.
    Also, let's not forget that for the "Squardo Strategy" to work, he has know of Squardo's past and understand thoroughly his character. Seeing how it worked flawlessly, I must say that he is proficient at that as well.

    What's more, Sengoku's serpentine manner of dealing with his opponent makes me suspicious of his words.

    Quote Quote:
    lol I did end up going back and rereading a lot of old stuff thanks to this discussion and it has changed my perspective on what actually happened so I have to thank you for that. So I take back what I said here:
    The pleasure was mine, Mr. Anduren This discussion was beneficial for the both of us, so thank you too.

    Quote Quote:
    I guess though, regardless of the reason why Whitebeard took in Ace, it turned out in the One Piece timeline that Ace was protected from the World Government until a specific time (regardless of reason) until Luffy was in a situation to participate in the war of the best. If it hadn't happened this way, Luffy wouldn't have been able to inherit Ace's will as well as Gol D. Roger's will (which I guess happened much earlier?). As Whitebeard's last words were (in chapter 576), he was talking about a history that is going to be written hundreds of years into the future and an event that is definitely going to come which it seems even the world government seems to know about somehow and fears.

    I concur. When they made preparation for waging the war against him, not only did they marshal an army that comprised infantrymen, vice admirals, 7 war lords, admirals and the fleet admiral but also came up with an efficient strategy that checkmated Wb in very few moves. How then would they take Ace from under the nose of a man against whom all of these extreme preparations were made? By sending in 3 admirals? It's not enough, and can result in the loss of a great military fraction.

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