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Translations: Gintama 507 (2)
i made a post about this but i thought it might be nice as a thread
im 95% sure arba is gyouken k, look here
when gyokuen is recalling her memories of solomon shes seeing sheba and solomon from her point of view
here is another
that was the intro to this arc, where we see arba looking onto solomon and sheba, which makes me think she was looking onto them from her flashback and not the one with him.
on this page we see sheba say " no one was able to do this but YOU"
and on the next page we see everyone upset, especially arba
here we see the two angels, one light and the other dark http://www.mangareader.net/magi/223/17
my guess is this, arba said she would support solomon in his darkest times... well guess what, the peak of alma torran mustve have been his darkest time, according to arba. so im guessing due to this love triangle that ensues arba becomes jealous of solomon and sheba. since solomon and sheba are together, she may feel as if sheba is responsible for "weakening" himself in a sense. before sheba it seems that solomon hated praise but after they end up together most people, when falling in love, tend to be more open and accepting.
my guess is that solomon, with his new found affection, slowly started to accept the praise he got from all other races and as such, arba may have thought that he was going to become another king david which is why they created al thamen.
i found this on the magi wiki about al thamen
Their goal is to raise the ‘Abnormalities of the World’. They want to continue creating darkness in the world, and to do that they need the help of the Black Rukh. They seem to want to take over various countries in order to further their goals. They want to create the darkness in this world and to set free everything from the prison that controls everything, from the structure of this world. In other words from “destiny”. That’s the only way to escape from an unavoidable rule that goes toward a certain conclusion and continue to live. A rule decided and imposed by someone, that is “Degeneration”. They choose not to do as destiny says.
we know that king david is 800 years old and thats how many years it took to get to the point we are now http://magi.wikia.com/wiki/Alma_Torran
Ilah choose humanity, the weakest species in Alma Torran, to save them from extinction. Ilah gave mankind the power of magic and 72 divine staves, to rule and unite the world. The remaining population of 500 humans became magicians. They stopped and prevented wars with other species and guided them to peace though the world continued to be in chaos for 800 years.
i think that al thamen is a group of extremists. they want to remove any "abnormalities" to prevent the flow of destiny. abnormalities like king david, solomon, sinbad... i really think that they discovered a part of king davis plan and are fighting it in their own way OR that they are fulfilling ill illahs mission. see, humans were supposed to be the leaders right
well living in harmony goes against king davids teachings such. after discovering the true lies of david, since he seems to be the one able to see the flow of destiny, i believe that he is manipulating things in his favor, and since he was with illah and can view the future. He speaks of the dingularity being born into the new world, sinbad, and once he creates a utopia he will be equal to god http://www.mangahere.com/manga/magi/v20/c222.5/6.html.
as i said before, i truly think al thamen is a group of extremists... it seems like they actually want to stop king david and not the main characters. it seems like sometimes you have to be the villain to save the world and thats exactly what they are doing. by destroying most of the life on earth and severing the threads of destiny they will be stopping king david BUT the cost is countless lives... in order to stop david they must destroy the world, cause if the world progresses naturally david will become a god and most likely take over all humanity and life itself. they need to stop david any way possible... they may not know david is controlling them but they may feel as if destiny is being "played" with and that its their "mission to stop it"
i dont think solomon and a bunch of people from alma torran are dead. solomon sent alladin to the new world, most likely when al thamen started to infiltrate it. alladin is the son of sheba and solomon(in the bible sheba and solomon are married)my guess is that they will have to go to the old world, most likely through the dark continent and find solomon, but only once all dungeons are captured. they may go there briefly to meet up with him to find out the rest of the real history of alma torran and they will travel t ill illahs kingdom together to stop david before he becomes a "god
also to add to m prediction, gyokuen has two braids just like arba....
I'm starting to believe the theory that there are 2 Magis who betrayed Solomon not just Gyokuen. About her true identity you can't ignore the fact that she kept the same staff as Sheba, or that her eyes are empty when she said those words to Solomon. But one thing is for sure, her turning on Solomon was staged by David, and his agent might have been Arba.
The first thing that we must always remember is that Arba comes from a line of magicians who were created to serve the higher up of the Church.They could be clones or something like that...but what about their free will? Arba was ordered to become Solomon's friend, so I'm starting to doubt that she really likes Solomon. If David sees Alma Torran as doomed to fail, and that the true utopia will only be achieved in the new world that Solomon will create, then there are high chances that he sent Arba to execute his plan and make sure that Sheba and the others turn on Solomon.By making the others discover the agenda, which sounds like Al Thamen's agenda, he would have paved the way to the events that will happen in the future.
For some time now I think that Al thamen are right in a way. Solomon became arrogant, and he also went as far as create a new world, placing himself on the same level as Illa. But I don't think Solomon controls fate. It could be Illa or someone higher than him.If Solomon could control fate, then none of those events would have happened. The only one who seemed to be aware of that is David and prolly Illa. But even Illa could be not completely free from it since it is implied that there are other gods higher than him. If the purpose of David was to break free of fate, then he most likely left a memo about it, which could have inspired Al Thamen. But they misinterpreted the act of breaking free of destiny. Cursing one's destiny only brings you closer to death, and the cycle of hate is perpetuated. The world doesn't becomes a better place, it's simply destroyed with everything in it, that thing happened in Alma Torran and it will happen again in the new world if they're not stopped. But even then the true utopia is not achieved, so in no way are Al Thamen getting close to breaking free of destiny or bringing a better future. They are completely wrong
David planned that they would fall into depravity, so that Alma Torran is destroyed, and Solomon is forced to create a new world, because he wouldn't have done it if he wasn't forced to. David is prolly the one who created the worthless agenda, that of Al Thamen, just to ensure the creation of a new world where another singularity,Sinbad, will achieve the true utopia.But what that means we don't know yet.
Last edited by ladylola; April 29, 2014 at 05:01 PM.
look what i found online !!!!
According to 1 Kings 11: Solomon's "wives turned his heart after other gods", their own national deities, to whom Solomon built temples, thus incurring divine anger and retribution in the form of the division of the kingdom after Solomon's death. (1 Kings 11:9–13
1 Kings 11 describes Solomon's descent into idolatry, particularly his turning after Ashtoreth, the goddess of the Sidonians, and after Milcom, the abomination of the Ammonites. In Deuteronomy 17:16–17, a king is commanded not to multiply horses or wives, neither greatly multiply to himself gold or silver. Solomon sins in all three of these areas. Solomon collects 666 talents of gold each year, (1 Kings 10:14) a huge amount of money for a small nation like Israel. Solomon gathers a large number of horses and chariots and even brings in horses from Egypt. Just as Deuteronomy 17 warns, collecting horses and chariots takes Israel back to Egypt. Finally, Solomon marries foreign women, and these women turn Solomon to other gods.
According to 1 Kings 11:30-34, it was because of these sins that "the Lord punishes Solomon by removing 10 of the 12 Tribes of Israel from the Israelites.
And the Lord was angry with Solomon, because his heart had turned away from the Lord, the God of Israel, who had appeared to him twice and had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go after other gods. But he did not keep what the Lord commanded. Therefore the Lord said to Solomon, "Since this has been your practice and you have not kept my covenant and my statutes that I have commanded you, I will surely tear the kingdom from you and will give it to your servant. Yet for the sake of David your father I will not do it in your days, but I will tear it out of the hand of your son. However, I will not tear away all the kingdom, but I will give one tribe to your son, for the sake of David my servant and for the sake of Jerusalem that I have chosen.
DUUUDDDE EVERY RACE MUST HAVE DIED OUT IN THE WAR EXCEPT THE FANALIS AND THE HUMANS!!! IT MAKES PERFECT SENSE!! Thats why theres no one else in the world but them!! the dark rift must be a way back to alma torran, thats why the fanalis transform back into their original forms. my guess is that solomon gave them a human form to avoid conflict. i knew i was right about that lol i really think that al thamen formed because they thought solomon was getting too powerful and would become king david... but that leaves the ultimate question.... WHO TURNED ON HIM!!!
Sheba, his future woman and mother of his child and former cult nut
Arba, the one who really wanted to be with solomon, who was also a major cult nut, much longer than sheba..... i swear its her!! solomon wanted her to make sure he didnt become like david!!
since david can see the future i think he made the churches so that he could eventually corrupt one of the two to get them to do what he wants. sheba and arba are both indoctrinated in the churches teachings. one of them had to see solomon getting too powerful and decided to ruin him in the name of the lord
---------- Post added at 07:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:12 PM ----------
david must have used solomon knowing this would happen, he couldve have stopped gim but chooses to do nothing while solomon destroys his lifes work.
No information is wasted in this manga, I don't think it was just an off-handed comment that Arba happens to be the oldest one there. I also don't find it coincidental that she's adopted this motherly dynamic with Sheba, just as Gyokuen did with Hakuryuu in order to manipulate him once she realized he could become useful to her in some way. Can you imagine what that would do to Sheba if Arba went full Gyokuen on her, and played innocent around the others while only Sheba knew the truth? I don't know how that would lead Sheba to secretly form Al Thamen, or how Arba would then play into this, but Arba has the potential to be a sleeper-cell of sorts due to her origin, and Sheba has so much potential to be corrupted at some point. And there has yet to be a single trace of one of these women in Solomon's world, so one of them very well may die in the final battle...and it may be Sheba. If Arba did steal her staff too, she can even hide who she really is too since she took a new form in Solomon's world anyway.
But wasn't the Moon magi leading the rebellion in Alma Torran? I don't see Arba hiding her identity all the time and then stealing the staff from Sheba after she died, unless Sheba became the medium. That would be a huge plot twist, but at the same time why would Ohtaka emphasize so much on the magi with the moon staff being the treacherous magi, while clearly the other two, Ugo and Arba aren't shown to have betrayed Solomon?
there are 2 treacherous magi instead of one and gyokuen was not probably the " first "one to betray solomon... okey thats a speculation based on manga drawings of chapter 115 and 193 ... i know it could be far fetched but let me explain my thoughts ...
in chapter 115 we see for the first time the veiled face of a magi holding the moon staff , i believe thats not gyoken ( but we find gyokuen as treacherous magi holding the moon staff in chapter 193 ) rather her identity as magi was never veiled therefore only option remains that she is the magi of the wing ... now look at both pictures
now here is the interesting part in next chapter (chapter 194)
at the end panel the veiled face which resembles the face from chapter 194 says there " WE will sink this world into darkness " , now here's the questions
1. why the face is veiled when treacherous magi is revealed just now ??
2. why the face said "we" ?
3.it could not have been isnan , because he is dead now , and we all know he was not magi, his face was shown among the chaos of alma toran destruction.
now this" we " could mean al -shermen but am pretty sure the veiled face is not gyokuen and both magi (or first the veiled one then gyokuen ) betrayed solomon therefore here we stands for beginning of al-shermen or first 2 magi to form al-shermen .also another example of the veiled face magi
now as gyokuen said they are forms based on thoughts and al-shermen becomes clay doll after defeat , we can assume that death is not a issue for al-shermen ...
so gyokuens husband who died in fire might not be dead afterall and very well is the 1st magi to betray solomon whose face is still not shown where gyokuens face as solomons 3 magi is shown from the beginning ...
killing of her husband and son can fuel hakuryu and if thats an "itachi" pulled by gyoken to make him fall into depravity . also judal seemed to give a hand to hakuryue on that case... so ultimately that will make judal work for gyokuen to fuel haku to fall in depravity . actually that will be the case if we find proof of judal is working with gyoken ...
so if judal and gyokuen work together , your theory could be right...
also some another deep mystery is the concept of one world, one language , one king, one king vessel ....i also have another theory on that.... i think ren kouha will find the truth very soon after the war ends , we might not have to wait very long for that .
Or a completely crack pot theory is that Gyokuen is both Arba and Sheeba's thoughts formed into a completely new being hell bent on executing what they sought to accomplish. After all Al Thamen is not necessarily real people in any sense of the word as we know them to simply be empty vessels, as they revert to dolls when destroyed, so I begin to wonder if Gyokuen is actually the formation of two thoughts into one as possibility was never particularly ruled out - they don't necessarily have to be exact duplicates. Moreover, Gyokuen is consistently showing to have both characteristics of both women so to speak that it is particularly difficult to trace at the moment whom she really takes after.
Edit: In addition Gyokuen only allows us to account for 2 Magi, since Ugo as we know has transformed into some sort of other being. Leaving a third Magi unaccounted for at the moment given that Ugo appears to be fighting a solo battle in fulfilling his duties I do wonder if Gyokuen is perhaps 2 Magi together, in turn accounting for all three.
Last edited by Hamy; April 30, 2014 at 12:19 AM.
But yeah, we only saw Ugo as a djinn, seriously before chapter 193 when Gyokuen revealed her true iedenity as one of the three wise magi's, we never heard about Sheba or Arba (the other two wise magi's) before. And after chapter 193 we had only one lost piece of one of the three wise Magi's and than we saw Arba.... I have always been thinking why only one of the three wise magi's was suppose to be transferred as a djinn and why we never saw or head about Sheba or Arba before. If one of the three wise magi's died in Alma Toran than I find it kinda strange why the other two could survive while the one could die? For some reason, it just does not make sense to me, tbh. More importantly, how made Solomon himself even in a god since we know he created the world.
I hope that the Alma Toran arc will clear this up for us ASAP.
Last edited by Lovemagi; April 30, 2014 at 06:13 AM.
@headless nick Back then I found that your theory had a few inconsistencies and I made a post about it. I still think that the moon magi whose face is hidden is Gyokuen, and that she openly betrayed Solomon. But back then we didn't have any info about her background, or the other 2 magis for that matter.But seeing how Sheba aka Gyokuen is innocent and so easy to manipulate, it's not too far fetched to think that she was somehow tricked into this.
Arba's betrayal might not have been a real betrayal.She prolly wasn't part of Al Thamen. I can see a few reasons why she might have manipulated Sheba, perhaps to simply end up with Solomon and be his wife and the mother of his child, which could have broke Sheba's heart, and made her feel that she was betrayed by everyone, but mostly Solomon. This may have turned her back to her old ways, but that would destroy her character. The other reason is more sinister and it's entirely related to David's plan.Arba was a tool that he used to slowly turn Solomon's followers against him, and he managed to corrupt a person like Sheba who literally worshipped Solomon.He most likely created the agenda that Al Thamen are following, just so that in the end Alma Torran is destroyed and a new world is created. I prefer the second theory because it ties with David's memorandum, and in this case Arba is just a tool that was used by David to make the others fall into depravity.
About Gyokuen being a mix of Sheba and Arba.In the last chapter we saw that Sheba wanted to become a person like Arba and Solomon. Sure she's not that person yet, but she says that she wants to become a powerful magi to stand by Solomon's side. I can see her trying to becomes like those two persons that she loved, and that would explain the change in her character I think.But I can't exclude any theory about these two right now until the next chapter comes out and we get to see what happened between them.
Last edited by ladylola; April 30, 2014 at 07:04 AM.
I find Gyokuen not only one of the most fascinating characters in Magi, but also one of the most interesting villains in the manga that I read so far. The character guide revealed some interesting facts about her:
-The guide starts by stating that all those years while being married to Hakutoku and Koutoku, she hid her true self behind that beautiful face and was able to seize political control through her beauty and calculated attitude. In order to realize her goals, she wouln't hesitate to use any means, regardless of how cruel and inhumane they are. The guide also described her desrire to carry out her plan that failed in Alma Toran as crazy and obssessive.
-Just like the case with Koutoku, she turns others into her puppets by stimulating the darkness and greed in their hearts. She's a master of manipulation and getting others to do her dirty work for her.
-She won't show mercy to anyone who stands in her way, even her own children. She's a monster in human form. And while displaying that loving, motherly expression, she threatens her child (Hakuryuu).
-With manipulating black rukhs, she was able to defeat a dungeon-capturer (Hakuryuu) without breaking a sweat. She's a magi from Alma toran who was able to overcome space and time and travel to this world. Her powers are so unimaginable that it only took Judar one look to acknowledge it.
-Borg: even after Hakuryuu equipped his djinn and attacked her with all of his might, she was able to deflect his attack with ease with her borg.
-Accessory: the jewel adorning her hair is a proof of her being Magi? (Note: after reading this, I thought the flower could be a hint to her identity in the Alma Toran arc, but the flower that Sheba recived from Momo was quite different in shape and color. Arba so far doesn't possess anything similar to it)
Relationship with other characters:
-The Kou emperors: she got close to them to raise her political influence and have a shield behind which she could act. If anyone looked useful to her, she will seek to use them, regardless of who they are.
-Hakuryuu: though she disposed of her two sons that had turned against her, she kept Hakuryuu alive. There seems to be a reason other than pity for letting him live until now. She's purposely provoking Hakuryuu's hatred towards her and raising that dark seed within him.
-Kouen: even though she can't make him an ally, she can't afford to have him as an enemy. She doesn't think of him as a foe that can be easily dealt with. With the prospect she could bring him over to her side one day in mind, she doesn't wish for the relationship between them to worsen.
Aladdin: the magi that served under the same master as her. In order to crush Solomon's arrogant will, she came to exist in this world as thoughts.
Hakuryuu's relationship with Gyokuen from Hakuryuu's entry:
-Even though she's his real mother, she's also his enemy that murdered his father and brotehrs.
Comments under pics:
-Back in the old days, she was a kind mother and a loving wife. There was a time when she lived a happy life with her family.
-She admits her treachery while smiling at her powerless son. She's no longer the loving, caring mother that he came to know.
Note: Ohtaka uses 実母=real/biological mother to refer to Gyokuen and her realtionship with her children. Back before the guide was released, there were theories among readers that Alma Toran Gyokuen possessed Hakuryuu's mother, but this guide came to refute it and stressed that Alma Toran Gyokuen is related to the Haku siblings by blood.
My personal thoughts:
I noticed that both Hakutoku and Solomon share some similarities: they both united their world/country after a period of unrest, were known to be great kings and were both betrayed by Gyokuen. While Gyokuen initially got close to Hakutoku to use him, I suspect that she eventually fell in love with him, maybe because he reminded her of Solomon (personally, I'm leaning towards Arba=Gyokuen theory). Also, out of all the mothers in the series, Gyokuen is the only one other than Hinahoho's wife and Mira Dianus that gave birth to that many children, which could indicate she was quite intimate with her husband. Don't also forget this pic from Ohtaka's blog that showed her quite happy with Hakutoku at her side after she gave birth to Hakuren. Another thing is, before they made their first appearance in the manga, Ugo, Sinbad, Rashid Saluja, Kouen and Solomon were all silhouetted figures, so I wonder if Hakutoku's face will be revealed at some point along with his backstory.
I don't know what instigated the incident ten years ago and why Gyokuen would suddenly kill her husband and children after all those happy years. According to Magi wiki, it was around the time when Hakuyuu was to be crowned emperor, and after the incident, Al-Thamen started the medium plan in Magnostadt. This incident is one of the biggest mysteries in the series, and Alibaba's fear that Hakuryuu will end up regretting going after his mother could be hinting that there's a side to the story that we don't know of.
Just my two cents. Hope this info was new and useful
She kinda sounds like Sinbad,in the way that she'll use anyone no matter who is that person. I wonder how Al Thamen's plan failed.Didn't they succeed in bringing down Illa, and destroy Alma Torran in the process? I'm also thinking that Hakutoku is somehow similar to Solomon, even his silhouette is close. Maybe he was Solomon's reincarnation and that's why she killed him, or he simply realized her true nature. Either way I think we shouldn't take what is said in guides too seriously, they're not really a reliable source of information. For example one of the OP guides stated that one character, Sabo, was dead. And just a few weeks ago he was confirmed to be alive.Even if they say that the author was involved, I really doubt it, unless it is the author who wrote it entirely, in that case it should be an excellent source of information.
I remember at the summit when Aladdin mentioned that Solomon was Alma Toran's one and only king, Alibaba recalled his talk with Kouen and Koumei and Hakutoku's silhouette appeared in the background. I wonder if there's a direct connection between Hakutoku and Solomon or that just like Kouen, his unified world concept was inspired by Solomon and Alma Toran and after he and his sons died, his will was passed onto Kouen. If Hakutoku is intended to be Solomon's reincarnation, then I guess Sheba=Gyokuen makes more sense.Quote:
I get what you say about the guides. I checked the credits page in the back of the Magi guide and Ohtaka was credited as 著者, which means the one who wrote it. There are people who were credited as publishers, planners and such, but you could gather that Ohtaka was the head of the project. If Ohtaka was credited as 原作者, and this term is used in anime adapted from manga and such, then her involvement in the guide should be questioned. Also, Ohtaka is notorious for mentioning mistakes on her blog and correcting them, so only time will tell if the info in this guide is 100% accurate.Quote:
Speaking of Gyokuen, the scene when little Hakuryuu confronted her was one of the most memorable ones in the manga, and I'd be disappointed if it turned out into his mother was only evil because she was possessed. I'm sure Ohtaka realizes how overdone that twist is.
I have this theory that after Hakuryuu falls completely into depravity and becomes part of his mother's plan, Hakuyuu and Hakuren will reveal themselves as alive and members of Al-Thamen and that everything they led Hakuryuu to believe was a lie. Just imagine how dark and twisted that will be.
Ladylola, I do not think what al thamen want is to destroy alma toran, but rather they want to undo everything solomon has done after he united the world. Thats why they did not think they have succeed eventhough they wipe out alma toran because al thamen cannot obliterate solomon and his underling once and for all before solomon activate his contingency plan and flee to the new world. they cannot simply call it job done and thus have to chase after solomon till the new world and continue to undo all solomon works
---------- Post added at 12:10 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:02 AM ----------
Hayatempest, I think hakutoku is definitely similiar to solomon as their ideology are quite alike, just like how sinbad and david are similiar because both are singularity. But I do not think they are the reincarnation of the other ones, because aladdin practically said that solomon is the god of the new world, no way in hell a god reincarnated as a human just to be killed off so easily, and gyoukuen, who hate solomon so much, doesnt seem to be too thrill that she killed off hakutoku, thus I think they just both look very similiar, maybe even provoke some old memories from the al thamen, and that was most likely why al thamen choose kou empire as their main nest, its all because hakutoku
I guess you're right, but that doesn't explain why they had to destroy their original world in the process.We also saw that they cared for the other species, and then suddenly they don't care anymore. A lot of things don't make sense to me concerning Al Thamen, perhaps when we know their agenda we'll finally understand how they came to the realization they had to destroy everything Solomon had created. Somehow I feel that this flashback will be incomplete, since I think we should have had Gyokuen's version too. I'm afraid that the more we know about Al Thamen the more we'll be tempted to agree with them, especially if they were wronged by Solomon. I already see trying to change the rukh as a bad thing,even if it's for the sake of the world,because it touches the most special thing and that is the soul, so in the end Al Thamen were prolly right.
Haya I think the problem here is to know how far Ohtaka was involved in writing this guide. Authors often can't keep track of all the merchandise around their work, and even the anime saw some changes, especially in the first season, so I can see this guide taking some liberties. Unless of course Ohtaka supervised it in that case there wouldn't be any problem. Also thanks for posting the scans here.