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Translations: Bleach 600 by BadKarma
The second picture is unidentifiable. Please link directly to the chapter it is from. If you linked to the chapter, instead cutting out one panel, it would be easy to tell. Post time-skip = haki. Pre time-skip = not haki. Luffy did not know how to use armament haki before the time skip.
It's very easy to tell. In every other panel of the fight Luffy is shown with arm blackened. You just chose the frame where his arm is obscured. haki, haki, haki, haki.Quote:
Devil fruit abilities have been defined by the author. Jozu's powers perfectly fit the definition. It does not fit the definition of armament haki usage. Body parts did not transform to demonstrate armament haki was being used back then. Now that transformation is drawn, Jozu's transformation does not resemble armament haki transformation, even characters described as exceptional users.Quote:
Every time a character has used conquerors haki, weak characters have been knocked out. Other than a little bit of wood splitting, the results are the same every time. Not similar, the same. When weak characters are knocked out, we know it's conqueror's haki. Oda even repeated the sky splitting when Luffy fought Don Chinjao, a confirmed conqueror's haki user. Every use of conqueror's haki throughout the series has been identical to the pic you posted, except wood splitting in the background. When Jozu transformed into diamond no other character had ever been shown transforming when they use armament haki. Oda has since started showing when characters use armament haki, but the transformation does not resemble Jozu's transformation.Quote:
It is also very similar to how every logia user fights, how Luffy fights, how Mr. 1 fights, Magellan fights, and how Mr. 3 use devil fruit to fight. All of those characters partially transform more often they fully transform. Jozu's transformation resembled all of their transformations, without exception. At the time Jozu appeared in the series characters did not transform at all when using armament haki. Now that they do transform, the transformation does not resemble Jozu's.Quote:
People are allowed to disagree with you, that doesn't make them intolerant. Posting a message like that makes you the intolerant one. If people disagreeing with you is that much of a problem, keep your opinion to yourself. Posting quotes like that is just childish. If someone is truly acting intolerant, be the bigger man and ignore them. If you're not willing to debate in an adult manner, don't expect any one else to, either. Debate is fun, it's a good way to get other perspectives. It's just a manga, who cares who is right or wrong. Why get so worked up over something that should be relaxing?Quote:
Last edited by Kaiten; May 13, 2014 at 02:27 PM.
Jozu's fruit is strange because it doesn't fit clearly into either paramecia or logia. However, I've always considered it a paramecia because of the way his power manifested, he didn't utilise his abilities in the same manner we've seen from logias. We didn't see production, and we didn't see any reformation leading me to parallels with paramecias in the same mould as Luffy or Daz Bones. The loss of the arm, and the apparent lack of it later on, reinforced this idea. Obviously logias can lose limbs, Aokiji lost his leg, but Jozu didn't simply create another one of diamonds as Aokiji created one of ice. Arguably, a leg is very different from an arm, and we only saw him the once after he was defrosted, so there's that. The take on Jozu's DF fitting in because it occurs naturally does seem to push it toward the logias, but in terms of categorising diamonds among the other logias, it just seems somewhat jarring. By pure gut, if one listed lightning, fire, ice, gas, smoke, sand, swamp, and diamonds and asked which one didn't fit in, I'm fairly certain diamond would be a the top of almost everyone's list. Whereas if it were grouped on a list with rubber, steel, and wax, it would seem to fit right in, just on instinct. The logias are generally rather broadly defined natural phenomena or generic environments or environmental features, while diamond simply seems like a pretty specific material in comparison. Of course, it could be either considering. But, in general, I tend to lean toward paramecia at the moment.
Last edited by Impossibility; May 13, 2014 at 02:31 PM.
If Joz is a proficient Armament user, he could've reached the transformation phase without having to go frame by frame through the blackening phase. I'm sure after some arcs, the author won't be wasting panels displaying slowly the phases of Luffy's transformations. It's already happening with Gear 2. After the timeskip, the author ceased showing Luffy initiating his technique by pumping his bloodflow.
I'm sorry. I thought that by showing you only that panel I would make it easier for you to see what I was trying to show you. It was a hard find though. Linking the entire page should've been much easier. http://www.mangapanda.com/one-piece/644/18
No, it's not. And if you keep on insisting , please show me the panel that displays any sign of fire. The panel I showed you displays clearly Luffy's arm on impact. When Luffy used Red Hawk, before he hit Hody, his arm started transforming & transformed, but when he hit Chinjao, before & long after impact, his arm hasn't shown any sign of fire.Quote:
Like I said, a proficient user doesn't need to go through the blackening phase just as how Luffy ceased going through the blood pumping phase. Or perhaps the author simply skipped showing that along the many other things he avoided showing.
That "little wood splitting" is what I am talking about. That is the indication of an advanced use of Conqueror Haki. Knocking out people is typical of Conqueror Haki just as how touching Logia users is typical of Armament Haki.
Oda hasn't showed a sky splitting ever again. Do you see a long lined fissure in the clouds anywhere? http://www.batoto.net/read/_/185636/...y_mangarule/17
The page you linked has no clouds. This one is much better because it shows the collision from a farther distance that covers in particular the clouds above them.
When Whitebeard joined the fray, he was already in a mortal condition. The stab could've been affecting his Haki usage. Age also could have been affecting his haki usage. Marco commented on it when Squardo stabbed him.
Now let's talk about Marco. When Marco landed a hit on Kizaru and another one, to save Luffy, on Aokiji, it might have been because it didn't require going through hardening to reach the desired result. It's like Mihawk said,"I am not stupid enough to use a cannon to hunt a rabbit." Also, when Ace's back was penetrated by Akainu's magmatic fist, Marco and Vista hit him without using blackening. It could've been because Marco was still slightly affected by the aftereffects of Kairoseki and Kizaru's laser beams. Don't forget that just after Onigumo cuffed Marco, he was hit hit by Kizaru's laser beams. He was like that for many chapters. He should have lost lot of blood. When a person goes through blood loss, s/he feels dizzy.
Ace wasn't shown to use blackening after he was freed. It could have been because of his excessive reliance on his DF and his carelessness against other opponents. Akainu commented on this. "Just because we're both logia, you got careless..." Nothing so far indicates that he was an Armament Haki user anyway.
Let's not forget that rank meant practically nothing to Whitebeard. Joz could've been Wb's right hand man as an Armament Haki user.
Joz's transformation is similar to Logia users as well. That much is true. If Luffy hadn't said Gear second armed and the author showed only his transformed hand and skipped showing the hardening phase, most would have argued that Luffy ate his brother's fruit. Luffy's Red Hawk is very similar to Ace's Firefist.Quote:
Yes, they are allowed to disagree with me. Otherwise, my being here is just to cause trouble.
The problem isn't with people disagreeing with me, but with insulting other people's ideas without even bothering on making a proper argument explaining their disagreement.
- no argument.
This applies over you as well.Quote:
How does my message make me intolerant? The word intolerant, by definition, means unwilling to accept ways of thinking and behaving that are different from one's own. If I truly had been unwilling to accept new ideas & consider other people's opinions, I wouldn't have been taking the time of carefully reading your post, amiably considering it, and kindly replying to it.
This applies over anyone who debates in an immature manner, and it gives the other party good justification for behaving correspondingly.Quote:
This approach will just make the discussion chaotic.
Assuming I am indeed childish, by your reasoning, I have good justification for childishly standing up to posts like these:
But why are you justifying my approach and simultaneously criticizing it? Do one thing and leave the other. Otherwise; your paragraph contradicts itself.Quote:
Please, Mr Kaiten, refrain from accusations. You can't know whether I was worked up or not. I could have written it while loling.
I'm but an account with text as my words. Text alone, in some cases, can't be taken as evidence for the emotional state of a person.
The purpose of my quotation is to show that once we clear out all the distractions, we can focus on what remains. Sometimes what is left is easy to believe, other times it can seem highly improbable. However, with the impossible eliminated, what remains are the only possible solutions. And one of them must be the truth.
Hey, why is talking about his penis turning into diamond too not allowed? It's a confirmation that it transforms too. Take it as you will.
Australia, you don't get his point: In your theory armament blackening and diamond form are interchangeable, but that's not possible as the concept of Haki hardening wasn't yet introduced at all. Oda took a four week long break to think about Haki & plot progression and only after the break and time skip introduced the blackening effect.
This is a bad fan theory and I have no reason to support it in any way, when Karten has already produced a massively long list of reasons of why that's so. Each and every of your arguments has been countered with a good reasoning, there is nothing left to defend in my POV. You don't know when to give up similar to the harpy theory, making up weird arguments like her tail being a problem for a human being that wanted to be harpy.*eye rolling* Bad ideas are sometimes stupid, that a simple fact. Being angry about someone pointing that out says more about you than the other party. Tolerance can become a problem at times too.
Luffy used hardening in the water before to escape the effect of seawater to some degree, friction is known effect, no one who had really followed the series would make any other connection, but a homage one, after seeing the Red Hawk attack.
Last edited by Schabrak; May 14, 2014 at 02:48 AM.
The discussion about jozu potentially being a logia is every bit as absurd as the discussion about luffy being a logia. I don't really see how the situation would be any different. IMHO we have already seen enough to suggest that jozu is not really a logia at all. Logia so far seem to have several unique characteristics and jozu does not seem to meet most of them. The most important characteristic of a logia user is that they are able to transform into their element, generate basically limitless amount of the element which seems independent of the original body and have intangibility. Jozu has not shown any evidence of being able to generate even a karat of diamond and he has definitely not shown any degree of intangibility. If anything I would argue he has shown the opposite of intangibility, he relies quite a bit on being impossibly hard. Heck, being a logia would effectively beat the purpose of being as hard as a diamond to a great degree. If jozu actually was a logia then his fruit would actually resemble crocodile's more than anything. Instead what we have seen is that he simply transforms his body into a single huge diamond... The only exception to how logia work is BB and that is only because his specific element, which sucks things in, does not allow him to take advantage of the normal characteristics of a logia.
To add to kick, how is a diamond supposed to represent a natural force, how can people be threatened by diamonds?
Yes, but nothing else would explain it, and I don't think we were introduced to haki yet? At that point, devil fruit was the only thing that made sense for some remarkable abilities, like Buggy being able to handle being chopped or Wapol being able to eat anything.Quote:
There still isn't clear cut proof that Jozu's ability to turn his skin into diamond is devil fruit power, it could be haki. Again, Oda coming up with blackening doesn't mean much, as he could have made Jozu's Armament Haki unique for whatever reason. Hell, back then, Jozu's haki being visible could have been the only way to show how high of a level fighter he is.
There is no possibility Jozu's used haki to transform. Because haki transformation did not exist at all then, and other characters used haki during the same arc, only a retcon could allow haki to explain his transformation. A devil fruit ability would explain his transformaration without a retcon. We have seen countless characters, including Luffy, use devil fruit to achieve identical transformations. What's the point of a retcon when the plot point could be more easily explained without one.Quote:
There would have been an infinite number of different ways to demonstrate Jozu's strength.
---------- Post added at 04:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:01 PM ----------
We have seen all but one, in a limited number of panels.Quote:
Jozu has already been shown transformed. Diamond's are indisputably natural.Quote:
Intangibility is not a requirement for logia. Most logia users so far have logia elements that are intangible by nature. Aokiji does not become intangible when his ability his activated. His element exists in a solid state, the only solid logia element so far introduced. Other solid element logia will not grant intangibility either. They will probably act as armor, tangible but impenetrable without haki.Quote:
A natural element (occurring in nature), transformation into that element, and producing an infinite amount of their element. Jozu has already met the first two requirements. He arguably has fulfilled the third requirement as well, attacking the giants with giant "iceberg". An infinite stream does not mean he will have to shoot gemstones out of his hand. That would be kind of silly looking, anyway.
Why would it have to look like Crocodiles? Does a diamond ability have to produce streams of gemstones?Quote:
Swamps were a natural force in form of being dangerous to people, they were a thread, as all other logias are. Fire, ice, magma, thunder bolts. darkness, gas, smoke, swamps, whatever sticky element Trebol is to represent, all of those are dangers to people. Diamonds are not, they don't endanger people aside from slavers forcing people to mine for them. :P
To clarify my post about the penis: It was only meant half as a joke, the other half is a serious reasoning based on canon material directly from the manga itself. During the Amazon Lilly arc, when Luffy was "raped/washed" by Margaret and co, they touched his "mushroom" and didn't know why it was weird and stretched like [other] parts of his body. Therefore Oda confirming that Jozu's penis has properities of the characters ability is highly indicative that he has a DF too.
Last edited by Schabrak; May 14, 2014 at 04:51 PM.
I've been trying to avoid this thread because of the hostility it's attracted, but whatever. First off, this is thread about Jozu being a fruit user or a haki user, so I don't understand the point of debating whether he's a logia or paramacia. Second, at first I thought it was a totally ludicrous proposal but now I'm simply willing to let time tell if it's true or not. I personally think he's absolutely a diamond paramecia user but that's just my opinion and I'd be willing to accept if Oda for some reason decided to later on reveal that Jozu actually had a rather unique version of Haki. Honestly though, there's really not a lot of realistic precident for oddly specific types of Haki like this, since even Sanji's fire can't actually be confirmed as Haki (he's been using it since CP9 right?) and I'm not too convinced by some of what I've read here. It'll simply come down whether or not Oda is willing to add yet another layer of power to this manga. We've got fruits and the branches of Haki, so Oda will have to have a good reason to attempt to branch out the capabilities of Haki into something that rivals the uniqueness of being a fruit user. If he never does, then this debate really matters very little since knowing the source of Jozu's power means very little to the story otherwise. It'll just serve as a nice teaser if it turns out that the thread starter was right, and a few people may look a bit foolish in retrospect =p
Well, a diamond logia would at a minimum have to have the ability to produce diamonds. In this particular regard it would make the most sense that a diamond ability would resemble sand the most. Otherwise his ability would physically resemble aokiji's but IMO that would be a tad weird. You'd see columns of diamonds all over the place... And still, we never saw an indication of jozu being able to make so much as a karat... If his ability is limited to turning his body to diamond but not generating any and actually damaging the diamond results in actual damage to jozu then there is simply no way that he can be considered a logia. Even if for a short while we did see him fight a bit. If he was a logia there would have been at least a slight clue. Then again an ability to generate at least a speck of diamond did not come up when blocking mihawk, or attacking crocodile or when doflamingo caught him with his strings or when he faced aokiji. We are talking about a logia user not generating a speck of diamond against a bunch of people whom he should have gone all out against.
Just imagine how incredibly strong he would be if he could actually create diamonds and use them like Kakyoin's stand from Stardust Crusaders. "Diamond Splash!"
A late edit: In Deep Blue, Jozu is put within the DF category with unknown names, not in the haki page following that part directly after.
I know it's german, but it's in the DF segment.
Last edited by Schabrak; July 10, 2014 at 06:31 AM.
i really feel that the fact that haki hasn't been established at this point is dubious, Oda may have had the plan to put haki in the show at some point think about it the main character gets stronger ONLY because of his haki and gear second/third looking at this and the fact that not confirmed there are previous examples of haki with shanks and mihawk
since his name is Daiyamondo Jozu then im guessing we can call his fruit.........
......宝石宝石の実 (Hoseki Hoseki no mi) literally a "gem" man....because gemstone doesnt sound right.
Also diamond is one of the hardest things that are known to man. Diamond is an excellent conductor of heat the water would freeze around it and exert a force seeking to expand.
So in this variation, Aokiji's ice would not be enough to shatter, let alone crack jozu's diamond as it would to luffy's rubber (ahem frozen carbon dioxide).
Last edited by modoki; August 12, 2014 at 02:39 AM.
just kidding, I agree that a Diamond will shatter, most crystals will if hammered down.
Anyways, on the main topic, I don't think any proof stated is irrefutable. However, it definitely unbalances strength definitions.
That would mean if he consumes a DF ability, for e.g. say a spike spike fruit, his spikes will be as hard as diamonds, no swordsmen will be able to fight him. I think you have to extremely unique, like one in a billion to have an ability like Diamond Haki.... that would make him something as rare as Shirahoshi, an ancient weapon..
Last edited by hokageji; August 13, 2014 at 01:32 PM.