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Thread: If Sasuke ever learns to be compassionate, would he be the ideal leader, compared to Naruto?

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    Reviewer 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member narutotheory's Avatar
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    If Sasuke ever learns to be compassionate, would he be the ideal leader, compared to Naruto?



    I mean...Sasuke already has all of Indra's blessed genes...so what if he learns to be compassionate like Ashura/Naruto...would he be an ideal leader/Hokage?

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    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ninjabot's Avatar
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    Re: If Sasuke ever learns to be compassionate, would he be the ideal leader, compared to Naruto?

    Yep. When it comes to leadership Sasuke's superior to Naruto in every conceivable way already. The only thing that would prevent anyone from following him is the fact that he's a colossal dick.

    And that's not really a deal breaker anyway, considering how he shat on Kakashi in this chapter and he still didn't step out of line. He kindly stepped aside and let the HNIC get to work. Compassion isn't the end-all be-all of leadership prerequisites and it just so happens Sasuke's aces in every single other one:

    Tactical? Greater than Naruto in the sense that he actually makes plans beforehand, rather than reacting on the fly.

    Capable of reading a situation? Sasuke again.

    Willing to make sacrifices? He was ready to abandon the entire alliance to save Naruto since he was the only one that could help him defeat Obito, so yup.

    Focused? Every time Obito or Madara presented an opening he was on him like stank on a gorilla. Even when Naruto was about to be killed, Sasuke was the one to step in and force him to keep his head in the game (saving him from Obito with his Susanoo once, saving him from the giant root when he was crying).

    Sasuke's essentially an ornery Kakashi. You essentially have to ask yourself "Who would be a better leader: Kakashi with Sasuke's power levels, or Naruto?"

    I think we all know the answer to that.

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    Re: If Sasuke ever learns to be compassionate, would he be the ideal leader, compared to Naruto?

    One of the things that has allowed him to accomplish what he has is his total disregard for others. You're asking if Sasuke would be a better leader if he wasn't Sasuke. It's his obvious flaw, he's a dick. He always has been, and that doesn't seem likely to change. If you take away the major flaw of any major character, they're going to look pretty good.

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    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ninjabot's Avatar
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    Re: If Sasuke ever learns to be compassionate, would he be the ideal leader, compared to Naruto?

    But some would look better than others. If you take away Shikamaru's laziness, is he gonna have the same physical capabilities as Sasuke or Naruto? The same battle instinct or willingness to sacrifice that Sasuke has? What about taking away Sakura's infatuation with Sasuke? Or Ino's shallow need to be acknowledged by ANY attractive boy?

    The point I'm making is that Sasuke has ONE thing holding him back from being the absolute paradigm of Kage skill and ability. I guess two if you consider the Uchiha curse, but that tends to work in his favor more than against him.

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    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted gnut's Avatar
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    Re: If Sasuke ever learns to be compassionate, would he be the ideal leader, compared to Naruto?

    he still hasn't gotten over his brother's betrayal...to him/clan
    but i believe he told the sage he cared for naruto...thats a start.

    not that he was willing to work with him...but legitimately cares.
    he will come around,trusting someone after what he went thru as a child would be hard on anyone.
    hopefully in the end we get a good heartfelt smile out of the guy
    Look around you carefully. Strain your eyes at the darkness around us... At the darkness around me. You said anywhere but here. This is where, here, at the border. Gathered by the winds. Those who have met their final destiny hanging between jealousy and regret. Those who failed, swept together here. You say it doesnt matter where. If you follow me, this is where you'll go. This is your eden.

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    Re: If Sasuke ever learns to be compassionate, would he be the ideal leader, compared to Naruto?

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    But some would look better than others. If you take away Shikamaru's laziness, is he gonna have the same physical capabilities as Sasuke or Naruto? The same battle instinct or willingness to sacrifice that Sasuke has? What about taking away Sakura's infatuation with Sasuke? Or Ino's shallow need to be acknowledged by ANY attractive boy?

    The point I'm making is that Sasuke has ONE thing holding him back from being the absolute paradigm of Kage skill and ability. I guess two if you consider the Uchiha curse, but that tends to work in his favor more than against him.
    When I said major character, allow me to assure you that Ino wasn't considered whatsoever. Obviously, there isn't anyone who's going to be as powerful as Naruto and Sasuke at this point, but that wouldn't stop them from being exemplary leaders. There's Kage-level, and then there's just ridiculous. If you gave Naruto common sense, something that he somehow missed out on, he'd be just as good as any other character in a leadership role. If Shikamaru decided to put forth some effort, if Sakura managed to evolve beyond this mindless infatuation that's gone beyond human sanity that makes her look desperate every time Sasuke shows up, they would likely be exceptional leaders.

    And on your point about 'Kage skill and ability', he's long surpassed their skill and ability, in matters of battle and war. To be blunt, compassion doesn't seem like much of a requirement in some of the villages. What we've seen little of from the Kages is what likely comprises most of their duties; management of a village.
    Last edited by Impossibility; May 30, 2014 at 03:56 PM.

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    Re: If Sasuke ever learns to be compassionate, would he be the ideal leader, compared to Naruto?

    Quote Originally Posted by narutotheory View Post
    I mean...Sasuke already has all of Indra's blessed genes...so what if he learns to be compassionate like Ashura/Naruto...would he be an ideal leader/Hokage?
    No, because compassion poses it own problems. We saw with both Hashirama and Sarutobi that their unwillingness to do what was needed to someone they cared about caused just as much trouble for the village as Danzo's lack of compassion. Itachi, who was acknowledged as great Hokage material, wasn't exactly a compassionate person. Considering how the Hokage is expected to send those under them out to their possible deaths, not sure why compassion would be a big quality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    One of the things that has allowed him to accomplish what he has is his total disregard for others. You're asking if Sasuke would be a better leader if he wasn't Sasuke. It's his obvious flaw, he's a dick. He always has been, and that doesn't seem likely to change. If you take away the major flaw of any major character, they're going to look pretty good.
    How so? The only reason he was in a position to gain his current power-up was specifically because he decided not to disregard everyone else. The only time I can think of him achieving anything in such a way was killing Danzo, which was far from necessary. Him finding Itachi, him "defeating" Kirabi, getting in the summit, getting the answers he wanted, defeating Obito, and currently fighting Madara have all been with him actively accepting the help of other people. I don't know where the idea that Sasuke dislikes or opposes teamwork ever came from when he has spent quite a lot of the series willingly working with others. Him being a jerk hasn't stopped him from associating or relying upon other people.

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    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: If Sasuke ever learns to be compassionate, would he be the ideal leader, compared to Naruto?

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    One of the things that has allowed him to accomplish what he has is his total disregard for others. You're asking if Sasuke would be a better leader if he wasn't Sasuke. It's his obvious flaw, he's a dick. He always has been, and that doesn't seem likely to change. If you take away the major flaw of any major character, they're going to look pretty good.
    Well he hasn't always been a dick. Sasuke's true nature was that of a kind and sweet boy, and Itachi ruined that. He changed once, he can change again.

    So, if Sasuke did indeed change, and lost of some of his dickishness and cold heartedness he would be a much better fit than Naruto.

    ---------- Post added at 07:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:30 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    What we've seen little of from the Kages is what likely comprises most of their duties; management of a village.
    Management of anything takes intelligence, something Naruto lacks. Not to mention Naruto would likely be unable to deal with difficult situations that have lose lose outcomes associated with them. Sasuke will use logic to make decisions, Naruto his heart. That is something you don't want.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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    Re: If Sasuke ever learns to be compassionate, would he be the ideal leader, compared to Naruto?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    How so? The only reason he was in a position to gain his current power-up was specifically because he decided not to disregard everyone else. The only time I can think of him achieving anything in such a way was killing Danzo, which was far from necessary. Him finding Itachi, him "defeating" Kirabi, getting in the summit, getting the answers he wanted, defeating Obito, and currently fighting Madara have all been with him actively accepting the help of other people. I don't know where the idea that Sasuke dislikes or opposes teamwork ever came from when he has spent quite a lot of the series willingly working with others. Him being a jerk hasn't stopped him from associating or relying upon other people.
    You're talking about power-ups, and I referenced 'accomplishments'. Having someone hand over some power isn't an accomplishment. He made it as far as he did because of his single-mindedness, that's undeniable. And in everyone one of those things he disregarded others to focus on his own goals, a lack of concern for someone doesn't indicate unwillingness to make use of their abilities. We were discussing compassion for others, not the ability to work with others, they're entirely different things.


    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    Well he hasn't always been a dick. Sasuke's true nature was that of a kind and sweet boy, and Itachi ruined that. He changed once, he can change again.

    So, if Sasuke did indeed change, and lost of some of his dickishness and cold heartedness he would be a much better fit than Naruto.
    For the duration of the manga, he's been a dick. He isn't going back, the manga is pretty much sticking to that. Yes, if Sasuke was a better person, he'd be a better leader. However, as I've said, take away the major flaw of most characters, and they tend to look pretty suited for it.

    Quote Quote:
    Management of anything takes intelligence, something Naruto lacks. Not to mention Naruto would likely be unable to deal with difficult situations that have lose lose outcomes associated with them. Sasuke will use logic to make decisions, Naruto his heart. That is something you don't want.
    Unfortunately intelligence isn't everything when it comes to managing people. Sasuke's abilities have always been shown in the context of battle, just like most of the characters. Those skills aren't necessarily transferrable. As a leader, particularly of a village, the ability to deal with others is important, Sasuke's interpersonal skills are just awful. Naruto's always going to be better at dealing with others. However, Sasuke's always going to be more intelligent, obviously. One might flourish where another might come short depending on the scenario. Sasuke needs to work on his attitude, Naruto his thought process.

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    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: If Sasuke ever learns to be compassionate, would he be the ideal leader, compared to Naruto?

    If Sasuke becomes compassionate, he'd be trillions of miles better than Naruto as a hokage or leader, since that's his only flaw. He's intelligent and can grasp politics better, something Naruto wouldn't be able to do, and make the right decisions, which Naruto can't do, as he has shown.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Naruto2011's Avatar
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    Re: If Sasuke ever learns to be compassionate, would he be the ideal leader, compared to Naruto?

    If Sasuke was compassionate he would yea!

    But then he would be missing what makes Sasuke Sasuke lol


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    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: If Sasuke ever learns to be compassionate, would he be the ideal leader, compared to Naruto?

    Sasuke doesn't have to be all "risk the lives of the entire world to save or protect the lives of six beings who can't die and prefer not to be part of Juubi!" to be compassionate, he can be more like Tobirama. He can care about others while being unemotional or unlike Tobirama, unbiased in his decisions. He'd be better than Naruto because he's not entirely compassionate, which prevents him from being too naive.

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    Re: If Sasuke ever learns to be compassionate, would he be the ideal leader, compared to Naruto?

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    You're talking about power-ups, and I referenced 'accomplishments'. Having someone hand over some power isn't an accomplishment. He made it as far as he did because of his single-mindedness, that's undeniable. And in everyone one of those things he disregarded others to focus on his own goals, a lack of concern for someone doesn't indicate unwillingness to make use of their abilities. We were discussing compassion for others, not the ability to work with others, they're entirely different things.
    No, I'm talking about his accomplishments too: Locating Itachi, getting the Hachibi (tentacle), getting into the summit, getting the answers from the Edo Hokages, defeating Obito, and now fighting Madara were all goals he was after. The only one of them that lead specifically to a "new" power was fighting the Hachibi, and that was suggested to have only happened because Sasuke cared for his teammates. The rest had the power-ups as a result of completing some of those accomplishments. Like I said, the only time I recall him disregarding others was with killing Danzo. Besides that, while he was mainly focus on his own goal, he never just disregarded a team mate. In several of those cases he actively tried to save his teammates, even at the risk of himself.

    And as I said to the OP, compassion has never really been a necessity to being Hokage, and we have actually been shown that it can cause plenty of problems as lacking compassion: Hashirama's unwillingness to deal with Madara leading basically to the current situation, and Sarutobi's unwillingness to deal with Orochimaru leading to numerous deaths and war. Itachi, who was described as thinking just like a Hokage, wasn't exactly a compassionate person. He cared about others, but was also willing to do what was needed for the greater good. This is the approach Sasuke seems to be developing.

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    Re: If Sasuke ever learns to be compassionate, would he be the ideal leader, compared to Naruto?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    No, I'm talking about his accomplishments too: Locating Itachi, getting the Hachibi (tentacle), getting into the summit, getting the answers from the Edo Hokages, defeating Obito, and now fighting Madara were all goals he was after. The only one of them that lead specifically to a "new" power was fighting the Hachibi, and that was suggested to have only happened because Sasuke cared for his teammates. The rest had the power-ups as a result of completing some of those accomplishments. Like I said, the only time I recall him disregarding others was with killing Danzo. Besides that, while he was mainly focus on his own goal, he never just disregarded a team mate. In several of those cases he actively tried to save his teammates, even at the risk of himself.
    Those were immediate goals in his long term vendettas, and he achieved them because his only concern was his goal rather than others. And you're once again talking about power-ups and teamwork, which have nothing with what I was addressing. So leaving Konoha was what? Abandoning his team? His general lack of concern for members of Taka, when they weren't useful? Bee, or Kumo? The Samurai? Sasuke has regularly abandoned those who failed to aid his plans and eliminated others to further it without any consideration.

    Quote Quote:
    And as I said to the OP, compassion has never really been a necessity to being Hokage, and we have actually been shown that it can cause plenty of problems as lacking compassion: Hashirama's unwillingness to deal with Madara leading basically to the current situation, and Sarutobi's unwillingness to deal with Orochimaru leading to numerous deaths and war. Itachi, who was described as thinking just like a Hokage, wasn't exactly a compassionate person. He cared about others, but was also willing to do what was needed for the greater good. This is the approach Sasuke seems to be developing.
    Ok, I pointed that out even before you joined the conversation, in the first post you responded to, and I pointed out the issues. Quite frankly, most of the Kages have just been awful; civil wars, strife, coups, world wars, the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction, the potential end of humanity, I'm fairly certain that the majority of the Kages are examples of how not to be a Kage. Being compassionate doesn't produce an inability to do what is necessary; Hashirama and Sarutobi were stupidly naïve when it came to individuals they held dear. And Itachi was compassionate; his concern for his brother was undeniable, and his concern for Konoha was considerable. Tobirama was capable of being compassionate, but that didn't stop him from doing what he thought needed to be done. Compassion doesn't necessarily result in inaction or weakness. And I don't know how you've drawn Sasuke to Itachi's way of doing things, they've very little in common when it comes to style or general outlook. Itachi as a genocidal villain showed more interpersonal skills than Sasuke as an ally and supposed Hokage candidate.
    Last edited by Impossibility; May 31, 2014 at 06:48 PM.

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    Re: If Sasuke ever learns to be compassionate, would he be the ideal leader, compared to Naruto?

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Those were immediate goals in his long term vendettas, and he achieved them because his only concern was his goal rather than others. And you're once again talking about power-ups and teamwork, which have nothing with what I was addressing. So leaving Konoha was what? Abandoning his team? His general lack of concern for members of Taka, when they weren't useful? Bee, or Kumo? The Samurai? Sasuke has regularly abandoned those who failed to aid his plans and eliminated others to further it without any consideration.
    Sasuke has had three main goals within the series: 1) To kill Itachi, 2) To get revenge against the Council/Konoha for the Uchiha Massacre, and 3) To fulfill Itachi's desire for Konoha. Locating Itachi led directly to achieving that first goal, getting into the summit led directly to that second goal, and defeating Obito and Madara are leading into the third. So no, he didn't achieve his long term vendettas by only being concern with his goal over others.

    And once again you mention power-ups when none of my examples involve him getting a power-up (aside from the Kirabi one which I don't consider a power-up because it's was a power he already possessed before the situation began.) Sasuke's power-ups have either happen before them (such as in the case with locating Itachi and getting to the summit) or inbetween them (such as between defeating Obito and fighting Madara). Teamwork ties directly to caring about others, especially when we're talking about risking one's life for your teammates. You don't risk your life for people if you don't care about them.

    Leaving Konoha? He thanked Sakura for her concern and outright acknowledged that Naruto was like a brother to him. Don't see any disregarding of them.
    Abandoning his team? Leaving his teammates to do his own thing is not abandonment and is far from disregarding them, especially since as mentioned, he was shown caring about both of them as he did it.
    Lack of concern for Taka? The only time he ever shown a lack of concern was in the events around killing Danzo, which I already acknowledged. But there are plenty more situations showing he did care for them, several of which involved him protecting and risking his life for them. Heck, he kept them around even after they had done what he had brought them together for. Again, that's not disregarding them.
    Kirabi/Kumo/samurai? They were basically his enemies. Why would he have to have compassion for his enemies?

    Regularly abandoned? He did that in one arc. That's not regularly. Heck, he has protected Sakura twice in the current arc, despite her being of no use to him. And why should Sasuke have to consideration about the opposition? Better yet, how about you give an example of a "good" character caring about their enemy in favor of completing their goal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Ok, I pointed that out even before you joined the conversation, in the first post you responded to, and I pointed out the issues. Quite frankly, most of the Kages have just been awful; civil wars, strife, coups, world wars, the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction, the potential end of humanity, I'm fairly certain that the majority of the Kages are examples of how not to be a Kage. Being compassionate doesn't produce an inability to do what is necessary; Hashirama and Sarutobi were stupidly naïve when it came to individuals they held dear. And Itachi was compassionate; his concern for his brother was undeniable, and his concern for Konoha was considerable. Tobirama was capable of being compassionate, but that didn't stop him from doing what he thought needed to be done. Compassion doesn't necessarily result in inaction or weakness. And I don't know how you've drawn Sasuke to Itachi's way of doing things, they've very little in common when it comes to style or general outlook. Itachi as a genocidal villain showed more interpersonal skills than Sasuke as an ally and supposed Hokage candidate.
    Considering they are Kages, how are they not examples of how to be a Kage? You do realize that a Kage is a military leader, who is specifically meant to handle their nation's armed forces. Pretty sure that means there will be wars and such underneath their command. Those two weren't naive. They knew full well what could happen if they didn't do what was needed, and still didn't do it. That's not being naive. And while he cared about Sasuke, Itachi never let those feeling get in the way of doing what he needed to do to achieve his master plan. He had no problem dropping Sasuke into two comas, planting the seeds for him to kill another Konoha ninja, or attacking him with lethal intent. He even had a backup plan prepared in case Sasuke didn't do what he wanted that would have taken away his free will. And Itachi had no problem threatening Konoha's destruction if Danzo didn't play along with his plan, or leaving Orochimaru around despite his clear intentions towards the village. Compassion does apparently given the way it's being used here. People are basically arguing that because Sasuke has put his goal ahead of the welfare of others (despite that not really being true) he doesn't care about anyone else (despite it being shown he does care in his own way), even though one of the major points if being a ninja has been to complete one's goal no matter the cost. We were literally told that ninjas were suppose to be people who endure to achieve their goals.

    Little in common? They both are willing to do what is necessary to protect the village. And more interpersonal skills? I would love some examples of that. Sasuke has been doing exactly what a Hokage is suppose to be doing, working to protect the village, and protecting those under him. He has literally saved Sakura's life twice, not to mention the numerous times he protected Naruto. But I guess since he didn't do it nicely, it means nothing. I want to know where this criteria that a potential leader has to be nice to everyone is coming from.

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