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Thread: If Sasuke ever learns to be compassionate, would he be the ideal leader, compared to Naruto?

  1. #166
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member IChallengeYou!'s Avatar
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    Re: If Sasuke ever learns to be compassionate, would he be the ideal leader, compared to Naruto?

    slightly off-topic: would naruto be the ideal leader if he learned how to be logical?

    ...

    because i dont think so

  2. #167
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    Re: If Sasuke ever learns to be compassionate, would he be the ideal leader, compared to Naruto?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    The purpose here was you proving your outlandish claims. You didn't even bother to try and prove the one that started all of this, the claim that Sasuke has achieved what he has by completely disregarding others, despite the fact that Sasuke has readily sought and accepted the help of others all throughout Part Two, to the point that he's the one currently pushing for teamwork with Naruto...
    Readily sought and accepted help as long as it furthered his own personal goals, not sure how that shows compassion. How does that show compassion again? Using others, using them as assets and tools to win is exploitation, not compassion.
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  3. #168
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    Re: If Sasuke ever learns to be compassionate, would he be the ideal leader, compared to Naruto?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchy View Post
    The fact that Tobirama established the Academy should be a clear indication that he was in agreement. In Danzo's final moments he recalls Tobirama, telling Team Tobirama that there was no need to be hasty at their age and that it was up to them to protect those who have faith in them, and love the village. Further indication that the welfare of others was of paramount importance to him.
    How so? The academy by all accounts was meant to standardize the training of Konoha's forces. It wasn't an act to stop the killing, it was an act to prepare for the killing. We saw them trained to act and kill, and those who didn't preform good enough were dropped out.

    Loving the villages doesn't mean the welfare of others was paramount. Danzo "loved" the village, and we saw the way he treated people. And most importantly, we have a firsthand viewing of Tobirama's regard via the treatment of the Uchiha clan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchy View Post
    The tone of your statement regarding both Tobirama and Itachi putting the greater good over everything else, implies that somewhere there exists a cause more worthy of sacrifice, when all it should really mean is that they are expressing an extreme form of altruism, which itself is derived from compassion. What of the person who stands idly by and watches the world descend into chaos, when it is within their power to make a difference. Would you consider that person to be more compassionate?
    I'm not sure that's a way of seeing it, but alright. But by that logic, wouldn't every character. including Sasuke, thus have compassion? I mean, his previous action was bring a wanted criminal to justice and currently is attempting to save the entire human race.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchy View Post
    I don't believe you fully understand Itachi's character. Although his methods were unorthodox, there is no doubt that he had Sasuke's best interest at heart. Danzo and Tobi have already confirmed that Itachi no intention of killing Sasuke. Fugaku, at the time of his death acknowledged that Itachi was a kind hearted person. You only focus on the negative aspects of his life but neglect the instances where he is shown to be loving, caring and even sentimental, as was shown when he spared Kabuto's life despite the understanding that even after escaping Izanami the reactivation of Edo Tensai was a possibility.
    I understand him just fine and I'm not ignoring the positive aspects, but simply pointing out that despite loving Sasuke so much, Itachi had no problem putting Sasuke in dangerous and potentially deadly situation. I mean, Itachi had no way of knowing that Naruto would manage to bring Tsunade back to the village, meaning the coma he dropped Sasuke in could have lasted for years. And then there's the situation with Orochimaru, which involved sheer luck that Sasuke didn't make in in time to be taken over straight away. Or the fact that Sasuke fortunately learnt the one technique that would save him from getting burnt by Amaterasu. Itachi's intentions may not have been to kill him, but intentions and what actually can happen are two different things and there was clearly a lack of concern about Sasuke's safety in Itachi's plotting. And by virtue of Izanami, there wouldn't have been any possibility, which was the whole point of it. I shouldn't even have to mention how he allowed Orochimaru to continue living despite his obvious danger to innocent people, or how he sacrifice his entire clan for the village, or helped Akatsuki kill several innocent people to further their plan that clearly endangered even more innocent lives. I'm not saying that Itachi, or Tobirama, didn't care about innocent lives, but simply that they didn't let the welfare of those lives get in the way of what they considered more important.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    And we're back to misrepresenting what I've said, and what I've already addressed, and somehow explaining away what you have. I can't imagine that there's anything to say that hasn't been said by one person or another in support of the premise. Tobirama is compassionate, as was Itachi. Sasuke's a dick. And I'm disinterested. Meh.
    Misrepresenting and explaining away? I literally posted my very words right there. And I'm sure you're disinterested since there's no explanation to how saving hundreds of people without any benefit wouldn't be considered more compassionate then saving one life for a benefit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    Readily sought and accepted help as long as it furthered his own personal goals, not sure how that shows compassion. How does that show compassion again? Using others, using them as assets and tools to win is exploitation, not compassion.
    Never asked how that showed compassion, simply asked how it was an act of disregard when he has helped and saved the lives of others without really benefiting. Sasuke has, several times throughout the series, risked his life for others, and several times has helped without gaining anything in return. I don't consider him compassionate (although that apparently depends on one's definition of compassion) but I disagree with the belief that he doesn't care about others. Heck, he kept Taka around even after they had fulfilled their purpose and in the current arc he saved Sakura twice, despite considering her useless.

  4. #169
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    Re: If Sasuke ever learns to be compassionate, would he be the ideal leader, compared to Naruto?

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Wait, the guy that told Hashirama that he couldn't unilaterally declare someone Hokage, and was the one that established voting in the village in the first place, voting that seems to continue, at least to some extent, decades after his death, abolished democracy? Now, Tobirama did name his successor somewhat arbitrarily particularly considering the circumstances, but suggesting that dig is kind of ridiculous. And how on earth every 'political skeleton' is attributed to him is beyond me; it's as though Danzo, Orochimaru, Madara, Obito, and Zetsu never existed. We get it, you don't like him, but he isn't the source of evil. The guy sacrificed his life for his comrades, and left them with a message indicative of his outlook, and even after his death he was prepared to fight for them, furthermore he showed considerable concern for Sasuke during the battle with Madara. He isn't Hashirama or Naruto who take compassion along for the ride with naiveté, and blind optimism, but he's compassionate.
    I get it that you like Tobirama, but which brand of compassion are you exactly slapping on his forehead? Hashirama outright stated that all villages ended up mimicking their village system, so the truth is not in the pudding this time. Then we have his bleeding heart for the welfare of Konoha's children in form of Chunin exams, not to mention his deliberate efforts to keep a founding clan from politics.

    Does all this translate into compassion? You people must have your own self-made compassion gauges then.

  5. #170
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    Re: If Sasuke ever learns to be compassionate, would he be the ideal leader, compared to Naruto?

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    I get it that you like Tobirama, but which brand of compassion are you exactly slapping on his forehead? Hashirama outright stated that all villages ended up mimicking their village system, so the truth is not in the pudding this time. Then we have his bleeding heart for the welfare of Konoha's children in form of Chunin exams, not to mention his deliberate efforts to keep a founding clan from politics.

    Does all this translate into compassion? You people must have your own self-made compassion gauges then.
    I'm not even sure when the post you're now responding to is from, but I'm fairly certain that the primary purpose of said post was to address two blatantly erroneous statements about Tobirama's role in the democracy of the villages and the attribution of 'political skeletons' to Tobirama's record.

    As for the wider discussion about Tobirama's compassion, making references to specific aspects about Konoha isn't going to change his characterisation. Every Hokage has watched over youth becoming shinobi, from Hashirama to Tsunade. Just as two Hokages maintained whatever role the Uchiha played within Konoha decades after Tobirama's death. He acted in a manner he thought best served the people he was chosen to lead, that doesn't show a lack of compassion in Tobirama's case anymore than it does in Sarutobi's. Being compassionate doesn't mean that everyone's going to be happy.
    Last edited by Impossibility; July 15, 2014 at 09:36 AM.

  6. #171
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    Re: If Sasuke ever learns to be compassionate, would he be the ideal leader, compared to Naruto?

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    I'm not even sure when the post you're now responding to is from, but I'm fairly certain that the primary purpose of said post was to address two blatantly erroneous statements about Tobirama's role in the democracy of the villages and the attribution of 'political skeletons' to Tobirama's record.

    As for the wider discussion about Tobirama's compassion, making references to specific aspects about Konoha isn't going to change his characterisation. Every Hokage has watched over youth becoming shinobi, from Hashirama to Tsunade. Just as two Hokages maintained whatever role the Uchiha played within Konoha decades after Tobirama's death. He acted in a manner he thought best served the people he was chosen to lead, that doesn't show a lack of compassion in Tobirama's case anymore than it does in Sarutobi's. Being compassionate doesn't mean that everyone's going to be happy.
    Those are far from being erroneous statements. You can try and play at this, but all Villages' ended up adopting his created political infrastructure. That is all there is to it.

    That is some sentiment. Yet, does it take away from the other, far less desirable parts of his character? Does it drag one back from the fact that he did all that he could to segregate a clan? Does it absolve him of the fact that he didn't uphold his end of the treaty? Is it really compassion that he created a system where kids had to kill to climb ranks or the arbitrary set up he chose for the village ? Give me a freaking break.

    No, there are certain aspects of compassion. I won't buy your own take on this. Tobirama doesn't exactly check all the kind-hearted man boxes.

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    Re: If Sasuke ever learns to be compassionate, would he be the ideal leader, compared to Naruto?

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    Those are far from being erroneous statements. You can try and play at this, but all Villages' ended up adopting his created political infrastructure. That is all there is to it.
    So your claim that he brought an end to democracy was accurate? No, it wasn't. He was the one that suggested any sort of vote, and voting continues long after his tenure ended. There isn't any possible way to argue that he ended democracy within Konoha. Even if you argue that the village isn't a democracy, which is a completely reasonable argument, you can't argue that he ended democracy. There was never any democracy to speak of for him to end, and any influence gained by the people in the running of the village or the selection of the Hokage was, based on what we've seen, the result of his actions. And he certainly wasn't responsible for most of the 'political skeletons' of the shinobi world that even goes far beyond hyperbole.

    Quote Quote:
    That is some sentiment. Yet, does it take away from the other, far less desirable parts of his character? Does it drag one back from the fact that he did all that he could to segregate a clan? Does it absolve him of the fact that he didn't uphold his end of the treaty? Is it really compassion that he created a system where kids had to kill to climb ranks or the arbitrary set up he chose for the village ? Give me a freaking break.
    And an individual can do things that are viewed negatively and remain compassionate. I'm fairly certain Tobirama didn't do "all that he could to segregate a clan", that happened when Danzo decided to massacre them. I'm not sure what treaty he failed to uphold. And quite frankly, the system of warring children existed long before he came around, and it existed long after he left. I don't see why he continues to be held to a different standard from everyone else including those that have held the same position.

    Quote Quote:
    No, there are certain aspects of compassion. I won't buy your own take on this. Tobirama doesn't exactly check all the kind-hearted man boxes.
    And this is a consistent issue, being compassionate doesn't indicate that you're kind-hearted, kind, a nice guy, friendly, or even likeable. That isn't what it is to be compassionate. I'm not ticking any of those boxes.
    Last edited by Impossibility; July 15, 2014 at 10:39 AM.

  8. #173
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    Re: If Sasuke ever learns to be compassionate, would he be the ideal leader, compared to Naruto?

    Quote Originally Posted by IChallengeYou! View Post
    slightly off-topic: would naruto be the ideal leader if he learned how to be logical?

    ...

    because i dont think so
    He'd definitely be the ideal leader if he was logical. Naruto can establish peace and inspire his citizens, and with logic, he can make the right decisions that result in the least casualties, if any. If Naruto did more to protect the bijuu or let them "die," the world wouldn't be in such danger from that moment of stupidity and illogical decision.

    I mean, Gaara wouldn't have been able to unify the army if it weren't for Naruto changing him and his way. Neji wouldn't have changed for the better if it weren't for Naruto convincing Neji that destiny is poppycocks.
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  9. #174
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    Re: If Sasuke ever learns to be compassionate, would he be the ideal leader, compared to Naruto?

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    So your claim that he brought an end to democracy was accurate? No, it wasn't. He was the one that suggested any sort of vote, and voting continues long after his tenure ended. There isn't any possible way to argue that he ended democracy within Konoha. Even if you argue that the village isn't a democracy, which is a completely reasonable argument, you can't argue that he ended democracy. There was never any democracy to speak of for him to end, and any influence gained by the people in the running of the village or the selection of the Hokage was, based on what we've seen, the result of his actions. And he certainly wasn't responsible for most of the 'political skeletons' of the shinobi world that even goes far beyond hyperbole.



    And an individual can do things that are viewed negatively and remain compassionate. I'm fairly certain Tobirama didn't do "all that he could to segregate a clan", that happened when Danzo decided to massacre them. I'm not sure what treaty he failed to uphold. And quite frankly, the system of warring children existed long before he came around, and it existed long after he left. I don't see why he continues to be held to a different standard from everyone else including those that have held the same position.

    And this is a consistent issue, being compassionate doesn't indicate that you're kind-hearted, kind, a nice guy, friendly, or even likeable. That isn't what it is to be compassionate. I'm not ticking any of those boxes.
    Was it not? It doesn't matter how lengthy your paragraph in denying something so obvious is. He spoke against Madara for a reason, and opposed a speedy Hokage appointment for a reason. It had everything to do with Uchiha Clan and nothing to do with his so-called democratic leanings. The fact that he laid the foundations for the principles that abolished anything even remotely related to democracy speak for themselves.

    How is this statement hyperbolic? Do you have anything supporting this claim, other than simply stating that it was a deliberate exaggeration on Hashirama's part?

    No, he cannot be viewed as compassionate, I am sorry. You can conjure up such attributes on your own, when nothing this man did can be brought under the heading of compassion. All this taints the very concept of compassion.

    Kind-hearted maybe a synonymous term, but compassion does encompass it.

  10. #175
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    Re: If Sasuke ever learns to be compassionate, would he be the ideal leader, compared to Naruto?

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    Was it not? It doesn't matter how lengthy your paragraph in denying something so obvious is. He spoke against Madara for a reason, and opposed a speedy Hokage appointment for a reason. It had everything to do with Uchiha Clan and nothing to do with his so-called democratic leanings. The fact that he laid the foundations for the principles that abolished anything even remotely related to democracy speak for themselves.
    So stopping a singular individual from arbitrarily naming an individual as Hokage and providing the alternative of allowing others to contribute is laying 'the foundations for the principles that abolished anything even remotely related to democracy'. Seriously? He abolished something that didn't exist by pushing for that very system. That's some pretty spectacular logic there.

    Quote Quote:
    How is this statement hyperbolic? Do you have anything supporting this claim, other than simply stating that it was a deliberate exaggeration on Hashirama's part?
    Do I have anything to counter the claim that Tobirama is responsible for most of the shinobi world's 'political skeletons'? You're actually going to run with this one? Madara and Obito are responsible for, and directly involved in, far more; Akatsuki and its actions, the manipulation of Kiri and everything that went with it, the actual massacre of the Uchiha, the current war. Danzo provided us with his fun in Amegakure, his dealings with Oro, the Uchiha massacre. Orochimaru gave us his manipulation of Suna and the war on Konoha. The statement was beyond hyperbolic, it was just completely wrong. What you attribute specifically to Tobirama so far is that he made some Uchihas unhappy.

    Quote Quote:
    No, he cannot be viewed as compassionate, I am sorry. You can conjure up such attributes on your own, when nothing this man did can be brought under the heading of compassion. All this taints the very concept of compassion.

    Kind-hearted maybe a synonymous term, but compassion does encompass it.
    And yet there are quite a few who view him as such. And the same things you point to as indicators that he isn't compassionate are the same things we've seen of others who are given that title freely without question. One mustn't be kind-hearted to be compassionate.

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  12. #176
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Schabrak's Avatar
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    Re: If Sasuke ever learns to be compassionate, would he be the ideal leader, compared to Naruto?

    Quote Quote:
    "denying the obvious", "supporting a claim", conjuring attributes on your own".
    Wow, you really have one twisted understanding of the manga to come up with such desprate attempts to invalidate the thorough arguments Impossibility is providing. It's like you read your own version of the manga, one that's not made public.
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    Re: If Sasuke ever learns to be compassionate, would he be the ideal leader, compared to Naruto?

    I still don't think Naruto has shown any leadership quality. Kishimoto may turn every character who meets Naruto into a yes (wo)man who won't ever say what Naruto is saying is stupid, he still hasn't provided the arguments to convince the readers. (as far as I am concerned)

    Considering it's unlikely to change (if Kishi had arguments, he would have given them already), I still think Naruto leader at the end would be a disaster.

    So yeah, a compassionate Sasuke would be way better than Naruto.
    Last edited by Aegis; July 18, 2014 at 05:55 PM.

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  15. #178
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: If Sasuke ever learns to be compassionate, would he be the ideal leader, compared to Naruto?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    How so? The academy by all accounts was meant to standardize the training of Konoha's forces. It wasn't an act to stop the killing, it was an act to prepare for the killing. We saw them trained to act and kill, and those who didn't preform good enough were dropped out.
    You're statement implies that all missions are assassinations when we've seen that a lot of mission are about safeguarding people and information. Killing is a last resort as oppose to the era of constant warring, so I believe Tobirama came quite close to achieving he and Hashirama's goal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Loving the villages doesn't mean the welfare of others was paramount. Danzo "loved" the village, and we saw the way he treated people. And most importantly, we have a firsthand viewing of Tobirama's regard via the treatment of the Uchiha clan.
    You're clutching at straws now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    I'm not sure that's a way of seeing it, but alright. But by that logic, wouldn't every character. including Sasuke, thus have compassion? I mean, his previous action was bring a wanted criminal to justice and currently is attempting to save the entire human race.
    Again, clutching at straws. Your logic would assess every character as lacking in compassion because they have all killed or caused serious injury to others. Sasuke is a victim of genocide who until recently was completely motivated by revenge, so I think you need to put things into perspective. He simply doesn't want to experience that degree of loss ever again. Stabbing Karin was a moment of insanity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    I understand him just fine and I'm not ignoring the positive aspects, but simply pointing out that despite loving Sasuke so much, Itachi had no problem putting Sasuke in dangerous and potentially deadly situation. I mean, Itachi had no way of knowing that Naruto would manage to bring Tsunade back to the village, meaning the coma he dropped Sasuke in could have lasted for years.
    You don't understand his character, because if you did, you would understand why it was necessary for him to play test Sasuke's abilities. Sasuke's life was never in any immediate threat when fighting Itachi, as the intensity was raised incrementally to give him new markers. Moreover, he put Sasuke in a coma before and guess what? Sasuke recovered from it without Tsunade.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    And then there's the situation with Orochimaru, which involved sheer luck that Sasuke didn't make in in time to be taken over straight away. Or the fact that Sasuke fortunately learnt the one technique that would save him from getting burnt by Amaterasu. Itachi's intentions may not have been to kill him, but intentions and what actually can happen are two different things and there was clearly a lack of concern about Sasuke's safety in Itachi's plotting.
    Itachi always believed that Sasuke had the capacity to match or surpass him, so the words he imparted to Orochimaru were not solely in reference to his own power. I think it's fair to say Itachi knew about Oro's rebirth technique and that he had faith that Sasuke would not die before their final encounter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    And by virtue of Izanami, there wouldn't have been any possibility, which was the whole point of it. I shouldn't even have to mention how he allowed Orochimaru to continue living despite his obvious danger to innocent people, or how he sacrifice his entire clan for the village, or helped Akatsuki kill several innocent people to further their plan that clearly endangered even more innocent lives. I'm not saying that Itachi, or Tobirama, didn't care about innocent lives, but simply that they didn't let the welfare of those lives get in the way of what they considered more important.
    You're wrong about Izanami. Itachi explained that it was made forbidden because the target could escape i.e. free themselves and still pose a threat. Lol, so now you're saying that not killing Oro makes him a bad guy? Make up your mind. You don't know how many people he killed after leaving Konoha. Deidara and Naruto were his only known targets and neither died by his hands. The very reason he joined Akatsuki was so that he could keep an eye on their movements and protect Konoha.

    Granted the uchiha's right to privacy and opportunities to occupy governmental positions were violated they still lived a fairly prosperous life, so I think you may be slightly exaggerating Tobirama's mistreatment of the Uchiha.
    Last edited by Dutchy; July 19, 2014 at 07:59 AM.

  16. #179
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    Re: If Sasuke ever learns to be compassionate, would he be the ideal leader, compared to Naruto?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchy View Post
    You're statement implies that all missions are assassinations when we've seen that a lot of mission are about safeguarding people and information. Killing is a last resort as oppose to the era of constant warring, so I believe Tobirama came quite close to achieving he and Hashirama's goal.
    If killing was only excepted to happen via assassination, then you could argue such. But we have literally seen that killing happens well outside of just that. Need I remind you of Team Seven's first big mission, where they did have to face several situations of kill or be kill, nor the Chuunin Exam, where everyone was fighting to the death? I mean, we've seen what they are taught at the academy, and one of those things are fatal shots on a dummy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchy View Post
    You're clutching at straws now.
    How am I clutching at straws? We were outright told that Danzo's actions and the council were an extension of Tobirama's teachings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchy View Post
    Again, clutching at straws. Your logic would assess every character as lacking in compassion because they have all killed or caused serious injury to others. Sasuke is a victim of genocide who until recently was completely motivated by revenge, so I think you need to put things into perspective. He simply doesn't want to experience that degree of loss ever again. Stabbing Karin was a moment of insanity.
    So you do consider Sasuke to be compassionate? Anyway, no, killing isn't a factor in my decision of who is compassionate or not. What is a factor is whether they help people without receiving or excepting anything in return, but simply because it was the right thing to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchy View Post
    You don't understand his character, because if you did, you would understand why it was necessary for him to play test Sasuke's abilities. Sasuke's life was never in any immediate threat when fighting Itachi, as the intensity was raised incrementally to give him new markers. Moreover, he put Sasuke in a coma before and guess what? Sasuke recovered from it without Tsunade.
    How was Sasuke not in any immediate danger when Itachi shot him with an attack that he could only escape with by using a technique that Itachi couldn't have known he had. And it was made clear that the second coma was considerably stronger, thus the whole reason Tsunade was required. Remember, Sasuke was in it for a month, without any sign of waking up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchy View Post
    Itachi always believed that Sasuke had the capacity to match or surpass him, so the words he imparted to Orochimaru were not solely in reference to his own power. I think it's fair to say Itachi knew about Oro's rebirth technique and that he had faith that Sasuke would not die before their final encounter.
    Which doesn't change the point that Sasuke would have had it not been for the unforeseen actions of Orochimaru being weakened by Sarutobi and Shikamaru's group delaying Sasuke's arrival, forcing Orochimaru to take another host instead of Sasuke. "Having faith" doesn't change the clear lack of concern.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchy View Post
    You're wrong about Izanami. Itachi explained that it was made forbidden because the target could escape i.e. free themselves and still pose a threat. Lol, so now you're saying that not killing Oro makes him a bad guy? Make up your mind. You don't know how many people he killed after leaving Konoha. Deidara and Naruto were his only known targets and neither died by his hands. The very reason he joined Akatsuki was so that he could keep an eye on their movements and protect Konoha.

    Granted the uchiha's right to privacy and opportunities to occupy governmental positions were violated they still lived a fairly prosperous life, so I think you may be slightly exaggerating Tobirama's mistreatment of the Uchiha.
    Huh? Yes, the target can escape, but only by accepting the correct path and thus no longer being a threat anymore. If the target could still pose a threat, then that would have made the entire technique pointless. And, no, that wasn't at all what I was saying. This has nothing to do with good or bad. Not killing Orochimaru, who he knew was a clear threat to everyone else, shows a lack of concern about "innocent" lives. And we know for a fact that he help extract the Bijuus from seven Jinchuuriki for Akatsuki, thus meaning we do in fact know he help kill several innocent people. And Akatsuki still did damage to Konoha, even while he was alive. Heck, not all that clear on how he "protected" Konoha by merely delaying Akatsuki. And less not forget, Itachi himself had no problem threatening the safety of the village.

    It was shown after they got revived that Tobirama's actions against the Uchiha were going on well before he became Hokage, actions opposed by Hashirama. Now considering Hashirama was dead before the whole military police action, he can't possibly be speaking about that persecution.

  17. #180
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member KingOfNight's Avatar
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    Re: If Sasuke ever learns to be compassionate, would he be the ideal leader, compared to Naruto?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    How am I clutching at straws? We were outright told that Danzo's actions and the council were an extension of Tobirama's teachings.
    Where?

    Hiruzen's words contradict this.

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