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slightly off-topic: would naruto be the ideal leader if he learned how to be logical?
because i dont think so
Loving the villages doesn't mean the welfare of others was paramount. Danzo "loved" the village, and we saw the way he treated people. And most importantly, we have a firsthand viewing of Tobirama's regard via the treatment of the Uchiha clan.
Does all this translate into compassion? You people must have your own self-made compassion gauges then.
As for the wider discussion about Tobirama's compassion, making references to specific aspects about Konoha isn't going to change his characterisation. Every Hokage has watched over youth becoming shinobi, from Hashirama to Tsunade. Just as two Hokages maintained whatever role the Uchiha played within Konoha decades after Tobirama's death. He acted in a manner he thought best served the people he was chosen to lead, that doesn't show a lack of compassion in Tobirama's case anymore than it does in Sarutobi's. Being compassionate doesn't mean that everyone's going to be happy.
Last edited by Impossibility; July 15, 2014 at 09:36 AM.
That is some sentiment. Yet, does it take away from the other, far less desirable parts of his character? Does it drag one back from the fact that he did all that he could to segregate a clan? Does it absolve him of the fact that he didn't uphold his end of the treaty? Is it really compassion that he created a system where kids had to kill to climb ranks or the arbitrary set up he chose for the village ? Give me a freaking break.
No, there are certain aspects of compassion. I won't buy your own take on this. Tobirama doesn't exactly check all the kind-hearted man boxes.
And an individual can do things that are viewed negatively and remain compassionate. I'm fairly certain Tobirama didn't do "all that he could to segregate a clan", that happened when Danzo decided to massacre them. I'm not sure what treaty he failed to uphold. And quite frankly, the system of warring children existed long before he came around, and it existed long after he left. I don't see why he continues to be held to a different standard from everyone else including those that have held the same position.Quote:
And this is a consistent issue, being compassionate doesn't indicate that you're kind-hearted, kind, a nice guy, friendly, or even likeable. That isn't what it is to be compassionate. I'm not ticking any of those boxes.Quote:
Last edited by Impossibility; July 15, 2014 at 10:39 AM.
I mean, Gaara wouldn't have been able to unify the army if it weren't for Naruto changing him and his way. Neji wouldn't have changed for the better if it weren't for Naruto convincing Neji that destiny is poppycocks.
How is this statement hyperbolic? Do you have anything supporting this claim, other than simply stating that it was a deliberate exaggeration on Hashirama's part?
No, he cannot be viewed as compassionate, I am sorry. You can conjure up such attributes on your own, when nothing this man did can be brought under the heading of compassion. All this taints the very concept of compassion.
Kind-hearted maybe a synonymous term, but compassion does encompass it.
Do I have anything to counter the claim that Tobirama is responsible for most of the shinobi world's 'political skeletons'? You're actually going to run with this one? Madara and Obito are responsible for, and directly involved in, far more; Akatsuki and its actions, the manipulation of Kiri and everything that went with it, the actual massacre of the Uchiha, the current war. Danzo provided us with his fun in Amegakure, his dealings with Oro, the Uchiha massacre. Orochimaru gave us his manipulation of Suna and the war on Konoha. The statement was beyond hyperbolic, it was just completely wrong. What you attribute specifically to Tobirama so far is that he made some Uchihas unhappy.Quote:
And yet there are quite a few who view him as such. And the same things you point to as indicators that he isn't compassionate are the same things we've seen of others who are given that title freely without question. One mustn't be kind-hearted to be compassionate.Quote:
Wow, you really have one twisted understanding of the manga to come up with such desprate attempts to invalidate the thorough arguments Impossibility is providing. It's like you read your own version of the manga, one that's not made public.Quote:
I still don't think Naruto has shown any leadership quality. Kishimoto may turn every character who meets Naruto into a yes (wo)man who won't ever say what Naruto is saying is stupid, he still hasn't provided the arguments to convince the readers. (as far as I am concerned)
Considering it's unlikely to change (if Kishi had arguments, he would have given them already), I still think Naruto leader at the end would be a disaster.
So yeah, a compassionate Sasuke would be way better than Naruto.
Last edited by Aegis; July 18, 2014 at 05:55 PM.
Granted the uchiha's right to privacy and opportunities to occupy governmental positions were violated they still lived a fairly prosperous life, so I think you may be slightly exaggerating Tobirama's mistreatment of the Uchiha.
Last edited by Dutchy; July 19, 2014 at 07:59 AM.
but only by accepting the correct path and thus no longer being a threat anymore. If the target could still pose a threat, then that would have made the entire technique pointless. And, no, that wasn't at all what I was saying. This has nothing to do with good or bad. Not killing Orochimaru, who he knew was a clear threat to everyone else, shows a lack of concern about "innocent" lives. And we know for a fact that he help extract the Bijuus from seven Jinchuuriki for Akatsuki, thus meaning we do in fact know he help kill several innocent people. And Akatsuki still did damage to Konoha, even while he was alive. Heck, not all that clear on how he "protected" Konoha by merely delaying Akatsuki. And less not forget, Itachi himself had no problem threatening the safety of the village.
It was shown after they got revived that Tobirama's actions against the Uchiha were going on well before he became Hokage, actions opposed by Hashirama. Now considering Hashirama was dead before the whole military police action, he can't possibly be speaking about that persecution.