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Your first post mentioned his 'current power-up' and your last post referred to his new 'power', I didn't bring up power or power-ups, I've simply pointed out their irrelevance. And compassion isn't a necessity for teamwork, Sasuke was more than willing to allow allies to die if they weren't useful any longer.Quote:
How is it not 'abandoning' them? And yes, he talked to her, then disabled her, left, and the next time he saw her, he tried to kill her. This doesn't seem to be much in the way of compassion.Quote:
I'd say that shows quite a bit. And he didn't seem particularly concerned with their absence after the Kage Summit. He was willing to take risks to protect them because they were useful to his cause.Quote:
They weren't his enemies. Kumo and Bee had done absolutely nothing to Sasuke. He chose to target individuals with zero involvement in his past and no intention of posing threat to him in order to further his vendetta. The same goes for the samurai.Quote:
Konoha, Team 7, Oro, Karin, Taka. Is there anyone in his group that hasn't been left behind or straight up left for dead? And where is there any mention of considering opposition, why are you intent on making this something that it just isn't?Quote:
Because they're awful at their job, they've failed time and time again. Their goal is to defend in times of war, not to start wars themselves. The were naïve, they believed the best of those they cared for despite the seemingly obvious clues that suggested otherwise. And you're making my point with Itachi, he was compassionate, but that didn't stop him from doing what needed to be done. You're the only one that sees otherwise. Shinobi are meant to endure to complete the goals that benefit their village, and people, suggesting self-sacrifice on their part.Quote:
Itachi's ability to communicate with others is far superior to Sasuke's; see Sasuke, Naruto, Nagato. Sasuke is arrogant where Itachi is modest. Sasuke is dismissive where Itachi is deferential. Itachi is in the mould of a protector, while Sasuke is quite intent on playing the role of avenger. Itachi and Sasuke are vey different in the manner in which they accomplish tasks, and how they handle others in the process. Yes, he's saved Sakura's life, but the question is if he saved her because of concern for her, or because she just happened to be in the way or the right place at the right time. There's the important distinction. No one's argued that Sasuke needs to be nice. Compassionate isn't necessarily synonymous with nice.Quote:
You've somehow ventured into a discussion about whether Sasuke is fit to be a leader as he is, when the thread's premise is that a compassionate Sasuke would be a superior leader to the alternative. Why are you turning this into something it isn't meant to be?
Last edited by Impossibility; June 01, 2014 at 03:38 PM.
Neither Sasuke or Naruto are fit to be leaders, they are fit to lead together. Neither can do much without the other anymore, and Sasuke is the mind of logic while Naruto is the mind of emotions. If either person gains that trait from the other, then they'll be ideal leaders. But as it stands now, neither is fit to be a leader.
Right, because Sasuke couldn't have just grabbed Naruto alone if he truly wanted to. And as mentioned, Sasuke has saved Sakura twice, with there being no need to do so the first time. Compassion, by definition, is "a feeling of deep sympathy and sorrow for another who is stricken by misfortune, accompanied by a strong desire to alleviate the suffering.". One doesn't have to be compassionate to be nice, but you kind of have to be nice to be compassionate.
Um, no. From the very beginning, I have been pointing out that "compassion" is meaningless in deciding whether one could lead or not, and explained how we have actually been shown that it doesn't make one a better leader. The only reason I asked for a criteria is because you made the claim that "genocidal" Itachi was better interpersonally then "Hokage candidate" Sasuke (in addition to previous statement about the Kages being awful). So I'm just trying to figure out how you're deciding all of this.
Yes but not being compassionate is a key part of his character
Except of course the mention of his new 'power', but anyway. Compassion isn't necessary for teamwork. Sasuke, Madara, Oro, and Akatsuki, they've each shown they don't have to be even remotely interested in those they're fighting alongside.Quote:
Just because you're forced to say farewell doesn't change that you're abandoning someone. Where in that sequence that I outlined did we see Sakura attempt to do anything to Sasuke before he decided to kill his former teammates? There's another thread for explaining away Sasuke's many actions.Quote:
Yay, I left you for dead, but it's ok now because I'm going to apologise, now how about you tag along and make yourself useful. Suigetsu and Juugo are most definitely not 'basically immortal', he didn't worry about them because he didn't care about them. That was their original purpose, but that didn't stop them from being extremely useful going forward with his next plot.Quote:
Akatsuki was a means to an end, just like Oro, just like Taka. He took orders from Obito because it would get him closer to his next goal. And I'm not even getting into this argument about the samurai, this forum is littered with the endless excuses of why Sasuke didn't do anything wrong.Quote:
So Konoha wasn't his group, ok, go with that. He didn't say 'goodbyes' to Team Seven, he tried to sneak out, and was forced to face Sakura. And once again saying goodbye to someone doesn't change that you're abandoning them. Oro was a stowaway, nothing more. And they were his opposition only after he attempted to kill and capture them. They were merely bystanders in his crusade.Quote:
So they've succeeded at their jobs? Of course, we can fault them. The manga has laid the blame at the feet of Kages and the villages, time and time again. Yes, but they decided to think that they would act justly. And I'm fairly certain that everyone would agree that Itachi is compassionate. And yet the comments are pretty much direct 'yes' responses to the question. They operate on behalf of the village, missions for the village, who else would be the primary beneficiary.Quote:
This is just getting sad. Sasuke isn't arrogant? Seriously? Sasuke isn't deferential by any real stretch of the imagination, while we've seen it from Itachi prior to his departure from Konoha and even after his revival. Does it matter what factors shaped him into what he is , it's what he is. This isn't a discussion about why Sasuke is the way he is, it's a discussion about possibly improving the way he is.Quote:
Considering the size of his Susanoo and the proximity of Sakura to Naruto, it would've required unnecessary effort to avoid Sakura and Kakashi. I don't think anyone would seriously argue that if Sasuke had to put in extra effort that he would've shielded Kakashi and Sakura. And the 'first time' isn't considered to be any indication of an intent to save Sakura, so much as an intent to kill Madara. And there isn't any need to be nice in order to be compassionate, those two things can quite easily be mutually exclusive of another.Quote:
Is that what you've been doing, I was under the impression that you were defending Sasuke's character, and arguing that he was concerned about the condition of others, in not so many words, compassionate. Otherwise, I can't imagine what the initial response was for. Itachi is better at communicating with others than Sasuke is, this isn't a stretch. You're just basically fabricating an argument about Sasuke, even when one doesn't need to exist.
guys line Naruto only could be leader in stories , in real life , no one will accept them as leaders because our world ( or its better to say people who made the our world ) are cruel and a naive person will just send his followers to their graves ....
but in this manga everything will goes according of Naruto's wishes , so for this story , Naruto is better choice because mangaka will solve everything for him .
Why people follows Naruto in this manga !? cause he is good !? cause he is kind heart person !? cause he believe in peace !? cause he cares about his friends !?
the answer is NO , they follow him because he has POWER ...
The same could be said for Sasuke having advisors to make up for his lack of compassion. Like when Sasuke instructed Suigetsu to release all of Orochimaru's prisoners, but Suigetsu took it upon himself to say to them while releasing them: "Tell the world Uchiha Sasuke set you free!!" Even if Sasuke didn't care to be known as a hero, he had people around who made sure he was seen that way.Originally Posted by Roman
Sasuke has some compassion though, even if it's not genuine compassion. He could have had the prisoners killed or tortured if they stood in his way, but instead he had them left alone or knocked unconscious. Hell, Sasuke doesn't need to show compassion to be an ideal leader, he just needs to not be as much of an asshole as he was to Kakashi and Sakura. He can be more like Tobirama and be a great leader.
I am not sure if Tobirama was such a great leader, in fact it seems he caused most of the problems of the village. And that's exactly why Sasuke wouldn't make a good leader... ideas like segregating the Uchiha are, ironically, the stuff Sasuke would think.
Why would Sasuke think of segregating the Uchiha when he knows segregation and prejudice caused problems? Tobirama didn't cause most of the problems, it was Danzou who did. Even after Tobirama pushed the Uchiha away, they were still getting along well until Danzou and the elders decided to get too power hungry and strip the Uchiha of their political voice, refusing to give it back. Sasuke's not gonna do any sort of stuff, nor will he be stupidly naive like Naruto.
Tobirama tought of the Uchiha as dangerous, and did what he could to put them aside from the village. That's why the Uchiha planned to fight against the village. That was a strategical, methodic move from Tobirama, the sort of thing Sasuke would think of too.
Frankly Sasuke didn't learned anything from the Uchiha incident. I.e. he turned crazy because his parents were killed, thus he shouldn't be killing samurais and leaving some orphans behind, etc.
They also want intelligence from a leader, not his advisors. As I said, it's a two road street. The only way you could possibly prove the point you're trying to make (terribly) is if you genuinely believe compassion is more important between the two.Originally Posted by Roman
So which is it? What's more important? Intelligence or compassion?