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Thread: If Sasuke ever learns to be compassionate, would he be the ideal leader, compared to Naruto?

  1. #286
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: If Sasuke ever learns to be compassionate, would he be the ideal leader, compared to Naruto?

    Quote Quote:
    Actually you can't blame Minato. What Minato did was the right thing to do, its ALWAYS the right thing to do. The world is in a shitty place because of people like Sasuke with no regard for life. Naruto saves people by forgiving people not by executing them when they are obviously out of the fight.

    This actually shows why Sasuke would be a crap leader in the real world or this manga. I can't believe people can bring this as a strong point for Sasuke... Just wow.
    the world is shitty place ,because people like Minato , Naruto , Hashirama and Tobirama , think they are know everything and others are wrong ....

    2+2 = 4

    Obito killed 40,000 ninja in one day and he should get killed ....

    Naruto calling a mass murder as "coolest guy" , Kakashi just praise him and Minato sympathy with him ...


    why no one said all these bullshit ( coolest guy , best ninja ) for Hiddan of Deidara !?

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  3. #287
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    Re: If Sasuke ever learns to be compassionate, would he be the ideal leader, compared to Naruto?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchy View Post
    Your assessment is inaccurate because Sasuke's jutsu is pretty much instant i.e. he can jump faster than Susanoo can fly. You say he would have acted otherwise, but what did he actually do? And, yes it would have meant sacrificing himself, because as we've seen he can't use his replacement jutsu in such quick succession.

    Sasuke didn't give two hoots about either of them prior to them saving his life. This is irrefutable. So there's no use in saying people are finding excuses, because while pointing it out might be motivated by bias, the claim is still based on fact.
    Your assessment is also inaccurate, because it does not mean sacrificing himself. We do not know if Sasuke needed to use his replacement jutsu again, but we do know he made an attempt to save Sakura, hence the regular eye bein closed. Asking what he actually did is stupid mainly because before he could do anything, Kakashi swooped in and saved Sakura.

    Can you prove that he didn't? As far as I recall, he only said that he prioritized his and Naruto's lives because without both, the world was doomed. He never threw Sakura or Kakashi under the bus, to my recollection, he just refused to save them if it meant endangering his or Naruto's life. I do not see how it's "irrefutable" when Sasuke is about getting the job done.

    The claim is based on assumption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    She didn't lack the will though, what she lacked was the actual ability. Sasuke's kill first approach isn't exactly unreasonable in certain situation, if someone hadn't stepped in his way, he could've finished off Obito and avoided this mess. As I said earlier in the thread, there are times when Sasuke's approach is superior, and times that Naruto's is the way to go. The problem is that they're at polar opposites, where a more balanced approach is best.
    She lacked the will to kill Sasuke. She was about to kill him but stopped because she couldn't kill someone she loved.

    I agree. I prefer Sasuke's approach most of the time, but Naruto's approach can be good as well. This war though, proves Sasuke's approach is way better.
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  4. #288
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: If Sasuke ever learns to be compassionate, would he be the ideal leader, compared to Naruto?

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    Your assessment is also inaccurate, because it does not mean sacrificing himself. We do not know if Sasuke needed to use his replacement jutsu again, but we do know he made an attempt to save Sakura, hence the regular eye bein closed. Asking what he actually did is stupid mainly because before he could do anything, Kakashi swooped in and saved Sakura.

    Can you prove that he didn't? As far as I recall, he only said that he prioritized his and Naruto's lives because without both, the world was doomed. He never threw Sakura or Kakashi under the bus, to my recollection, he just refused to save them if it meant endangering his or Naruto's life. I do not see how it's "irrefutable" when Sasuke is about getting the job done.

    The claim is based on assumption.
    You say my assessment is inaccurate but fail to give an alternative method of escape? Another impressive rebuttle! Again, his jutsu is near instant so saying Kakashi got there first is stupid! Kakashi was nowhere to be seen when it initially became apparent that Sakura could not escape on her own. Naruto had to prompt him to use his eyes and he hesitated. It could be argued that the delay was due to charge time but that only lends to the idea that he would have less time to manoeuvre once he got there.

    You could be right but I'm sure Sakura would disagree with you. Furthermore, is it not a fact that he has tried to kill both Sakura and Kakashi? Is it not a fact that when he no longer has a use for someone he discards them? People talk of Taka and yet he cared little for Jugo and Suigetsu before and after he killed Danzo, but joined forces as soon as they proved useful again. I know he's all about getting the job done. That's the problem. That's why he's trash!

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    Re: If Sasuke ever learns to be compassionate, would he be the ideal leader, compared to Naruto?

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    She lacked the will to kill Sasuke. She was about to kill him but stopped because she couldn't kill someone she loved.
    That isn't actually what happened. He'd ordered her to kill Karin, and while she was stating to herself that it wouldn't matter once she killed Sasuke, he tried to kill her from behind with Chidori. She intended to kill him, she just didn't get the chance because Sasuke didn't trust her.

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    Re: If Sasuke ever learns to be compassionate, would he be the ideal leader, compared to Naruto?

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    That isn't actually what happened. He'd ordered her to kill Karin, and while she was stating to herself that it wouldn't matter once she killed Sasuke, he tried to kill her from behind with Chidori. She intended to kill him, she just didn't get the chance because Sasuke didn't trust her.
    Then Kakashi saved Sakura and was fighting Sasuke while Sakura healed Karin. After she was done, she tried to kill Sasuke but couldn't do it, and if it weren't for Naruto she would have been killed. It is this scene specifically that I'm pointing out - when Sakura was close to Sasuke and could have killed him but couldn't because of love. If she also lets Naruto influence her as Tsunade has, then she would be nearly as bad as Naruto would be, as she'd be listening to someone who sucks at decision making. If Sasuke is back in the village, and she listens to Sasuke blindly while disregarding most opinions, then she'd be a bit better off, but Sasuke might as well become the hokage.
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    Re: If Sasuke ever learns to be compassionate, would he be the ideal leader, compared to Naruto?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchy View Post
    Who are these questionable people you're talking about? As for Taka, the job wasn't over because he then decided to destroy Konoha and it's leaders. Suigetsu joined on the understanding that Sasuke would help him achieve his own goal, Juugo would have sold Sasuke out had Orochimaru decided to take his body and Karin is an obsessed fool. Your recollection of events is quite different from what has actually happened.

    Sasuke saved Sakura when she was contributing to the battle. The moment he felt that she and Kakashi were way in over their heads, he dismissed them. The moment she saved his life, she again proved her worth. Sacrifice himself for others? How about you explain how Kakashi managed to reach Sakura before Sasuke? There is no evidence that supports the claim that Sasuke has put his life on the line for the sake of others more times than Naruto.
    Those mentioned. Taka wasn't formed or needed for that. Their sole purpose was to help find Itachi, which they did. And what is off in my recollections?

    Going up against fodder isn't contributing, That's a role any and every ninja could do, and where was it shown he ever began to think of Sakura differently? He has always considered her useless, since the very beginning of the series. yeah, sacrifice himself for others. Kakashi was faster, thanks to his recent boost, just like how he was faster then Naruto too. There is plenty of evidence, as we have directly seen it: He jumped in front of Haku's needles to save Naruto, jumped in front of Sakura and that guy to protect them from Zabuza's ninjas, pulled Sakura away from Orochimaru in the FoD, pulled both Naruto and Sakura out of the way of Zaku's attack in the FoD, was gonna use a fourth Chidori to buy time for Naruto to get Sakura away from Gaara, ran to save Naruto from Itachi, jumped in front of Karin when Juugo attacked, pulled out Amaterasu to save Team Taka, unnecessarily jumped in front of Itachi several times against Kabuto, used Susanoo to save Naruto or attempt to several times against Obito, went after Madara despite knowing the difference in power and not wanting to, and as previous mentioned, saved Sakura twice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchy View Post
    If everyone in the village has the will of fire, why should Sasuke be the exception? If all the previous Hokage have it, why shouldn't Sasuke? So you're saying that someone who doesn't share the ideals of the people in his village is still fit to lead them? You should think a little harder before you post your statements.
    Why would Sasuke be the exception? Sasuke showed the Will of Fire in the past, like going after Gaara, and he's currently fighting specifically to protect the village, which is what having the Will of Fire is suppose to mean. Sasuke is fit to lead them specifically because of who he is now, someone who wants to protect the village as his brother wanted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchy View Post
    So Sasuke's question about who he is was answered by the Hokage? I must have missed that, can you post the link?
    That wasn't a question. Sasuke had no question about himself. He knows who he is. What he wanted was to fully understand the situation, and he got that answer, thus as mentioned, was why he joined the war in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchy View Post
    Sasuke is regarded as a traitor, so how many jounin do you think are seriously going to entertain the thought of making him Hokage over Naruto or anyone else who has been loyal to the village? The Rookies are the next generation of Konoha elite, and he doesn't have their support. If you don't see a problem with that then there's not much left to say. Other countries are a material consideration because the person who leads is going to have to interact with the other heads of state. Akatsuki is a criminal organisation of which Sasuke was a member, therefore he is considered a criminal. People don't usually trust the word or intergrity of criminals. Lets see him try to arrange a peace treaty. He outright acknowleged that his wrongs can't be undone so easily but that's irrelevant because he's not even seeking their approval.
    Actually, Sasuke is regarded as a criminal, which in itself is questionable - Konoha doesn't care and Kumo was only against him because they thought he killed Kirabi, which they now know isn't true. And considering how high Sasuke was held before the summit by the regular ninjas, even though he had left the village and joined Orochimaru, AND seeing how high he has been held by random ninjas during this war, I'm not seeing much of an issue.

    The Rookies aren't the currently elite, nor as mentioned, is their approval needed. Sasuke doesn't care what they think because they don't know the truth of why he did what he did and thus their opinion is lacking. Were they to be told, they most likely would change their tune, especially Team Ten considering they were all for disobeying the rules and Hokage to achieve revenge for Asuma. Sasuke has shown no problem listening to people who know what they are talking about. It was the entire point of him getting the Hokages revived and asking them the questions he wanted, followed by listening to what they told him and forming an opinion on that. And no, the other nations aren't material considerations. In case you have forgotten, the relationship between the villages were far from trusting. The villages and their leaders were distrusting and at odds with each other. We saw this at the summit, and again during the beginning of the war. So "trust" and "integrity" is laughable when none of the villages trusted each other in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    Actually you can't blame Minato. What Minato did was the right thing to do, its ALWAYS the right thing to do. The world is in a shitty place because of people like Sasuke with no regard for life. Naruto saves people by forgiving people not by executing them when they are obviously out of the fight.

    This actually shows why Sasuke would be a crap leader in the real world or this manga. I can't believe people can bring this as a strong point for Sasuke... Just wow.
    Right thing to do? Isn't sparing mass murders how the likes of Orochimaru, Kazuzu, and Madara went on to cause even more trouble? And I fail to see how killing someone who literally has over 40,000 deaths under his belt is a lack of regard for life. Heck, had Minato actually acted like a leader and put the welfare of the village above his own feelings, he could have prevented pretty much all of this and saved countless lives by dealing with Obito when he had the chance.

    And you really trying to use Naruto's change of heart dues ex as a counter point? In the real world AND this manga, people don't normally instantly do a 180 just because they are talked to. Plus, seeing as Sasuke's idea was the same as Kakashi's, who I'm pretty sure we regard as having good potential for being a leader, seems more like Sasuke was acting like a good leader would in that situation. That's not even taking into account what actually happen afterward (which while I could believe that Madara could have still controlled the dead Obito) I serious doubt that Zetsu would have been capable of that (else he could have simply controlled Madara or Nagato before that point), meaning that at the very least Madara would have been an Edo Tensei a while longer and Black Zetsu couldn't distract Minato and Kakashi.

  8. #292
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    Re: If Sasuke ever learns to be compassionate, would he be the ideal leader, compared to Naruto?

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    Then Kakashi saved Sakura and was fighting Sasuke while Sakura healed Karin. After she was done, she tried to kill Sasuke but couldn't do it, and if it weren't for Naruto she would have been killed. It is this scene specifically that I'm pointing out - when Sakura was close to Sasuke and could have killed him but couldn't because of love. If she also lets Naruto influence her as Tsunade has, then she would be nearly as bad as Naruto would be, as she'd be listening to someone who sucks at decision making. If Sasuke is back in the village, and she listens to Sasuke blindly while disregarding most opinions, then she'd be a bit better off, but Sasuke might as well become the hokage.
    Eh...I'd forgotten about that. In my mind, I'd rewritten that as her just being stopped by Sasuke. I blame Kakashi, she was on track before he decided to run on with his friendship talk. But yes, as I said, for Sakura to be even remotely successful she has to move on from Sasuke.

  9. #293
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    Re: If Sasuke ever learns to be compassionate, would he be the ideal leader, compared to Naruto?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Spoiler show
    Would like to note that Sasuke stopped considering Sakura useless after the Land of Waves arc and showed her quite a bit of respect, and he showed concern and care for her and Naruto. I don't know if Sasuke would have thrown anyone under the bus, but he definitely would have risked his life to protect Naruto and Sakura. Sasuke probably didn't consider Sakura useless from that point on until Madara became overpowered, given that despite the powerups from the Sage, Sasuke still acknowledged that if he or Naruto died, two of the most powerful good guys, then the world was doomed. Like, he didn't wonder whether he OR Naruto were strong enough, he just automatically thought that alone, they had no chance. Basically influenced his actions up until Sakura and Tobi saved him.

    Also, Minato and Hiruzen's failures are why Tobirama was a better leader. he wouldn't have spared Orochimaru like Hiruzen did, he would have ended Orochimaru. He also would not have done a stupid ass thing like sacrifice his life unnecessarily when the village would be better off with him alive. Same with Sasuke, and why he's a more ideal leader.

    If Minato was alive, would the Kumo have the balls to try to kidnap a Hyuuga or demand the leader's corpse? If Orochimaru was killed, then would Sasuke have left Konoha? I say nay. They were horrible leaders, which sucks because Minato was portrayed as this cold blooded killer in the face of enemies but a warm and compassionate person amongst people not enemies, which was actually cool and unique.
    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Eh...I'd forgotten about that. In my mind, I'd rewritten that as her just being stopped by Sasuke. I blame Kakashi, she was on track before he decided to run on with his friendship talk. But yes, as I said, for Sakura to be even remotely successful she has to move on from Sasuke.
    But I'm not talking about Sakura's feelings for Sasuke, but her feelings for the ones she loves. If Naruto or Ino went rogue, would Sakura be willing to kill either of them?

    I don't think it's really Kakashi's fault. Sakura just lacks the gumption to kill someone she loves, just as Hiruzen lacked the gumption to kill his beloved pupil.
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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: If Sasuke ever learns to be compassionate, would he be the ideal leader, compared to Naruto?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Those mentioned. Taka wasn't formed or needed for that. Their sole purpose was to help find Itachi, which they did. And what is off in my recollections?
    He still needed them in order to exact his revenge, so they were not way past the end.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Going up against fodder isn't contributing, That's a role any and every ninja could do, and where was it shown he ever began to think of Sakura differently? He has always considered her useless, since the very beginning of the series. yeah, sacrifice himself for others.
    I don't think the spawn of Shinji count as fodder. You constantly make things up for reasons unknown to anyone but you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Kakashi was faster, thanks to his recent boost, just like how he was faster then Naruto too.
    Naruto can't teleport so I'm not sure why you're even mentioning him here, especially as his request to Sasuke made it painfully obvious that she was beyond his reach. Sasuke's replacement jutsu is faster than Kamui, so it'd be nice if you can elaborate on how you've come to the conclusion that Kakashi is faster?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    There is plenty of evidence, as we have directly seen it: He jumped in front of Haku's needles to save Naruto, jumped in front of Sakura and that guy to protect them from Zabuza's ninjas, pulled Sakura away from Orochimaru in the FoD, pulled both Naruto and Sakura out of the way of Zaku's attack in the FoD, was gonna use a fourth Chidori to buy time for Naruto to get Sakura away from Gaara, ran to save Naruto from Itachi, jumped in front of Karin when Juugo attacked, pulled out Amaterasu to save Team Taka, unnecessarily jumped in front of Itachi several times against Kabuto, used Susanoo to save Naruto or attempt to several times against Obito, went after Madara despite knowing the difference in power and not wanting to, and as previous mentioned, saved Sakura twice.
    Saving Naruto from Haku +1. In FoD, Sasuke was so scared he couldn't even move. Also, he didn't save Sakura because Orochimaru's kunai weren't aimed at her -1. Lol, Oto nin can't even be considered a threat to Sasuke for your statement to be valid -1. Gonna use a fourth Chidori? May I remind you why Sakura ended up in that situtation? I'll admit that he gave a good speech but it was motivated by more than just his desire to save Sakura. He attacked Itachi out of anger not because he was trying to save Naruto. He needed Karin and truth be told, Juugo wasn't much of a treat to Sasuke -1. I've already acknowledged his use of Amaterasu to save Taka +1. Sasuke wasn't saving Itachi, what he was protecting was the information he wanted to gleen from Itachi -1. Saved Naruto because it was the logical thing to do. Fought Madara alone because he's arrogant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Why would Sasuke be the exception? Sasuke showed the Will of Fire in the past, like going after Gaara, and he's currently fighting specifically to protect the village, which is what having the Will of Fire is suppose to mean. Sasuke is fit to lead them specifically because of who he is now, someone who wants to protect the village as his brother wanted.
    Lol, don't be ridiculous! Sasuke went after Gaara for an entirely different reason. Sasuke is fighting for the village because it's a keep sake of his brother and not because he cares about the people who live there. It would seem that you too lack understanding of what having the will of fire entails. Who does Sasuke love and cherish!? How did he react when he found out Konoha had been destroyed? Who has he identified as being the 'king'?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    That wasn't a question. Sasuke had no question about himself. He knows who he is. What he wanted was to fully understand the situation, and he got that answer, thus as mentioned, was why he joined the war in the first place.
    There's really no point in talking to you when you openly deny facts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Actually, Sasuke is regarded as a criminal, which in itself is questionable - Konoha doesn't care and Kumo was only against him because they thought he killed Kirabi, which they now know isn't true. And considering how high Sasuke was held before the summit by the regular ninjas, even though he had left the village and joined Orochimaru, AND seeing how high he has been held by random ninjas during this war, I'm not seeing much of an issue.
    The Rookies and Root planned to kill him so I believe they do care. The fodder we saw in the restaurant are not indicative of the elite as it is clear they no nothing. Beyond attempting to kidnap Killer B, he attacked the Kage Summit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    The Rookies aren't the currently elite, nor as mentioned, is their approval needed. Sasuke doesn't care what they think because they don't know the truth of why he did what he did and thus their opinion is lacking. Were they to be told, they most likely would change their tune, especially Team Ten considering they were all for disobeying the rules and Hokage to achieve revenge for Asuma. Sasuke has shown no problem listening to people who know what they are talking about. It was the entire point of him getting the Hokages revived and asking them the questions he wanted, followed by listening to what they told him and forming an opinion on that. And no, the other nations aren't material considerations. In case you have forgotten, the relationship between the villages were far from trusting. The villages and their leaders were distrusting and at odds with each other. We saw this at the summit, and again during the beginning of the war. So "trust" and "integrity" is laughable when none of the villages trusted each other in the first place.
    I think it's fair to assume that they are currently among Konoha's elite. Furthermore, anyone worth their weight would be aware that Sasuke is a traitor and that Naruto has done more to protect it than he has. Killing Itachi is one thing, but planning to destroy the village is another. Sasuke's decision was mostly based on Itachi's decision. He doesn't agree with the former Hokage because he believes the current problems were caused by them anyway. Suna and Konoha are experiencing the best relationship they've ever had because of the trust established between Naruto and Gaara. That trust means Konoha is more secure, so I believe it does hold some importance.

    I have yet to see you build a viable case in favour of Sasuke that wasn't all smoke and mirrors. I read posts from you and M3J hoping there'd be more than just examples of infrequent or isolated instances where Sasuke has done something which would suggest he's not a total dick! Again, look up all the definitions / traits of hokage given by those who have been hokage or are considered hokage material and build a case to show how he fits that criteria. Once you've done that and compared it to Naruto, then we can have a sensible discussion.
    Last edited by Dutchy; August 25, 2014 at 06:19 PM.

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    Re: If Sasuke ever learns to be compassionate, would he be the ideal leader, compared to Naruto?

    Only criteria Naruto fills is the social one when it comes to being a hokage. I still don't see how that makes him a better choice, or even a good choice in general. Sasuke is a better choice because he fulfills the whole leader aspect and decision making aspect pretty well, focusing on protecting the majority than just minority while leading the village.

    Sasuke stopped acting like a dick when he focused less on revenge and turned into a better person after the Land of Waves arc thanks to Naruto and Sakura, the two people he cared about. I also don't remember him acting like a dick towards Taka until the Summit. Maybe one or two incidents, but I don't remember those either.
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    Re: If Sasuke ever learns to be compassionate, would he be the ideal leader, compared to Naruto?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchy View Post
    He still needed them in order to exact his revenge, so they were not way past the end.
    No, he didn't. He knew where they were, meaning no need for Karin, and he prefers to handle the killing himself, meaning no need for Suigetsu or Juugo, and at that point in the series there wasn't a single character in Konoha that could have posed an actual threat to him, again meaning no need for a team. The only person who came close was Kakashi, who we actually saw could barely complete with a tired Sasuke.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchy View Post
    I don't think the spawn of Shinji count as fodder. You constantly make things up for reasons unknown to anyone but you.
    Make things up? Fodders are enemies that can be taken out by nameless enemies, and thus, given they were being taken out by the nameless Alliance forces, they were fodder. Enemies that aren't fodder would only be capable of being taken out by named and key characters, which is kind of what makes them "impressive".

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchy View Post
    Naruto can't teleport so I'm not sure why you're even mentioning him here, especially as his request to Sasuke made it painfully obvious that she was beyond his reach. Sasuke's replacement jutsu is faster than Kamui, so it'd be nice if you can elaborate on how you've come to the conclusion that Kakashi is faster?
    Naruto's physical speed is on par with teleportation, a feat he has shown multiple times against Kaguya. And we get shown that the boosted Kamui became faster.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchy View Post
    Saving Naruto from Haku +1. In FoD, Sasuke was so scared he couldn't even move. Also, he didn't save Sakura because Orochimaru's kunai weren't aimed at her -1. Lol, Oto nin can't even be considered a threat to Sasuke for your statement to be valid -1. Gonna use a fourth Chidori? May I remind you why Sakura ended up in that situtation? I'll admit that he gave a good speech but it was motivated by more than just his desire to save Sakura. He attacked Itachi out of anger not because he was trying to save Naruto. He needed Karin and truth be told, Juugo wasn't much of a treat to Sasuke -1. I've already acknowledged his use of Amaterasu to save Taka +1. Sasuke wasn't saving Itachi, what he was protecting was the information he wanted to gleen from Itachi -1. Saved Naruto because it was the logical thing to do. Fought Madara alone because he's arrogant.
    1) Sasuke still moved when he needed to, saving Sakura while during so instead of just leaving her. And Orochiamru threw TWO kunai. 2) The Sound Trio weren't regular Oto ninjas, and the point is that Sasuke saved both Sakura and Naruto from being killed. 3) Sakura's actions beforehand doesn't change the point, that Sasuke was gonna sacrifice himself to give Naruto the chance to save himself and Sakura. 4) He went after Itachi specifically to save Naruto, not to get revenge, as we were actually shown. 5) He was willing to leave Karin when she told him before that she didn't want to join, so he didn't need her that much. 6) Itachi was an Edo summon, he couldn't truly be killed as Sasuke knew, and Sasuke voiced no issue when Itachi was having Kabuto cancel Edo Tensei, so saying he only acted because he wanted answers is clearly false. 7) Sasuke was saving Naruto long before there was any sign that Naruto would needed to win. 8) Sasuke fought Madara specifically because Hashirama asked him to do so. And really, if you are gonna claim acting in addition to anger and against "non-threats" don't count, then Naruto pretty much loses several of his own, since he fought Pain out of revenge for Jiraiya and none of the Zetsus clones could ever be said to be a threat to him. So Sasuke would still have more examples to his name then Naruto.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchy View Post
    Lol, don't be ridiculous! Sasuke went after Gaara for an entirely different reason. Sasuke is fighting for the village because it's a keep sake of his brother and not because he cares about the people who live there. It would seem that you too lack understanding of what having the will of fire entails. Who does Sasuke love and cherish!? How did he react when he found out Konoha had been destroyed? Who has he identified as being the 'king'?
    Um, that's Gaara's reasons for fighting. Sasuke went because he was a Konoha ninja. And you seem to have missed the whole thing about "wanting to prevent what happen to his clan from happening again". If Sasuke didn't care about the people, he wouldn't care if they got killed or used. And your argument just doesn't work. First off, you have no idea who Sasuke currently loves and cherish, or who he would see as the king. Secondly, his reaction about Konoha was well before this point, so that's moot. More importantly, you really can't even answer those questions for Kakashi, much less Naruto. Heck, the only person who has even talked about the whole king thing has been Shikamaru. And considering how Naruto was willing to throw the village under the bus for his own selfish desires, that seems laughable. In case you forgot, Naruto made clear he would have had no problem with Ino and Sakura running off to get killed by Kumo and starting a war between the villages, despite the fact he easily had the power to stop them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchy View Post
    There's really no point in talking to you when you openly deny facts.
    Um, you do realize that that's an interrupted statement, not a question, as shown by the (...) instead of a question mark. It's pretty obviously that Sasuke was gonna say something like "What am I gonna do?", since before he got interrupted he had no way of getting the answers he was after.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchy View Post
    The Rookies and Root planned to kill him so I believe they do care. The fodder we saw in the restaurant are not indicative of the elite as it is clear they no nothing. Beyond attempting to kidnap Killer B, he attacked the Kage Summit.
    Root was after him because of Danzo, who wanted Sasuke dead for personal reasons. And the Rookies only decided that because they didn't want Naruto to have to deal with doing it. The ninjas at the restaurant were regular ninjas, which is what I said, and that's the point - regular ninjas thought highly of Sasuke. Attacking the summit doesn't matter, that got pinned on Obito's actions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchy View Post
    I think it's fair to assume that they are currently among Konoha's elite. Furthermore, anyone worth their weight would be aware that Sasuke is a traitor and that Naruto has done more to protect it than he has. Killing Itachi is one thing, but planning to destroy the village is another. Sasuke's decision was mostly based on Itachi's decision. He doesn't agree with the former Hokage because he believes the current problems were caused by them anyway. Suna and Konoha are experiencing the best relationship they've ever had because of the trust established between Naruto and Gaara. That trust means Konoha is more secure, so I believe it does hold some importance.

    I have yet to see you build a viable case in favour of Sasuke that wasn't all smoke and mirrors. I read posts from you and M3J hoping there'd be more than just examples of infrequent or isolated instances where Sasuke has done something which would suggest he's not a total dick! Again, look up all the definitions / traits of hokage given by those who have been hokage or are considered hokage material and build a case to show how he fits that criteria. Once you've done that and compared it to Naruto, then we can have a sensible discussion.
    No it's not. They aren't the "best" of their respective clans, or among the strongest ninjas in the village. And no, the only people who even know that Sasuke was gonna destroy the village is Team Seven, and they clearly wouldn't mention it because they want Sasuke to return, and Team Taka, who won't mention it because they are completely loyal to Sasuke. No one else is aware of Sasuke's former goal, so there's no reason it would be a factor in anything. And since the former Hokages have admitted that they indeed screwed up, and that the current system is flawed, that really doesn't damage the point about Sasuke having no problem listening to them. And again, we were shown at the summit that the trust was questionable at best. You're confusing the fact that Naruto and Gaara get along well with the villages getting along well, which are far different cases. Not to mention, that even if that was true, then that would still break your case, since the villages would be having a good relationship despite Naruto not being Hokage, meaning there isn't any need for him to be Hokage for things to work out.

    The case for Sasuke is just fine. Just because you disagree or dislike them doesn't change that. And you talk about the other Hokages, which is hilarious given that Sasuke fits the criteria far more then Naruto.

    Leadership: All the Hokages have shown or have implied leadership experience before becoming Hokage. Sasuke also has shown leadership of both Team Seven and Team Taka. Naruto hasn't been shown leading anyone.
    Personality: Sasuke's personality and beliefs are similar to Tobirama, Danzo, Kakashi, and Itachi, whereas Naruto is only similar to Hashirama.
    Pragmatism: All the Hokages have been shown willing to put aside their own desires and life for the bigger picture. Sasuke too has been shown willing to set aside his own life and dream for the bigger picture. Naruto has been shown the opposite, completely unwilling to give up what he wants even if it meant endangering the live of others. They all also have realized that they must sacrifice a few to save the many, something Naruto refuses to understand.
    Intelligence: Nearly all the Hokages have been shown brilliant, either tactically in battle or via inventions, just like Sasuke. The only one who hasn't shown such is Hashirama, but even he's not shown as an idiot like Naruto.

    The only thing Naruto has going for him over Sasuke is the ability to connect with people, which is moot as the only Hokage that comes close to having such a skill was Hashirama, meaning it's not in the criteria. There isn't anything else all the Hokages have that Naruto also share, or is lacked by Sasuke.

  13. #297
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    Re: If Sasuke ever learns to be compassionate, would he be the ideal leader, compared to Naruto?

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    Sasuke doesn't have to be all "risk the lives of the entire world to save or protect the lives of six beings who can't die and prefer not to be part of Juubi!" to be compassionate, he can be more like Tobirama. He can care about others while being unemotional or unlike Tobirama, unbiased in his decisions. He'd be better than Naruto because he's not entirely compassionate, which prevents him from being too naive.
    You have a point though I think Tobirama was not as biased as people make hims out to be. He had made a logical conclusion on his part and he tried to include them in main stream. Anyway..

    Sasuke won't be a bad hokage in normal time and I agree he is better at organizing as we can see how he picked his new team after dealing with Oro as well as in battle field. But we also saw how he didn't hesitate to strike Karin. Or sideline Kakashi and Sakura in rude manner. Kakashi was too seasoned to care about it all that much, especially under the circumstances and Sakura's spirit was somewhat re-stored by Naruto and her own liking for her old team mate as well as wish to help out and fight if possible in the war. Sasuke's action didn't inspire them to do anything there.

    Naruto on the other hand would need someone to help with administration. But then a Hokage doesn't have to deal with everything on his own. Good advisers and staff would take care of it. Shikamaru is there. Sasuke can be there too is he is willing. Tobirama helped Hashi, didn't he?

    I say this because Naruto has something else equally important in a leader- he inspires other people. Despite his power he doesn't make others feel threatened, instead he makes them want to risk themselves for helping him. That's something not that true in case of Sasuke. People were helping him out because of personal loyalties( Jaggu) , childish infatuation ( karin) or for greater good and reasoning ( Kakashi) Friendship and love ( Naruto and Sakura). But others were not so accepting that readily when he declared he wanted to be a hokage too.

    Hinata started to stalk Naruto as a fellow user which turned into admiration later on seeing how hard he tried. Shikamaru told Shikaku Naruto make him want to walk with him. Nagato, Obito accepted him and decided to try his idea of peace despite not agreeing him completely. Sand was an ally to Konoha and Gara helped Sasuke to an extent in his battle with Raikage for Naruto. Without Obito's help Kaguya would have already taken over several chapters ago. Obito was entirely won over by Naruto. Naruto has been making connections with so many people in the alliance by his own disposition and personality alone. His words made other people give their best in face of utter defeat more than once.

    A leader is one who can lead and Naruto leads; despite his short comings he is able to bring people together without forcing them power. I see Naruto as the king while Sasuke as a general. Both can be good hokage in their own way. It would be more like what they will need after the war ends.

    Would Naruto be a jounin ever- not sure. Can Sasuke become one? In a blink. But being a hokage may work on a different level because it needs a different kind of skill set. Hiruzen's might as a warrior didn't make him that much of success. Danzou would have faced much worse than just disbanding of root if he pulled a massacre with someone like Naruto as Hokage. Itachi wouldn't need to play intermediary for Naruto would have been talking to Uchihas himself.

    Someone raised issue of Itachi- and him not being compassionate. I think he was compassionate in his own way. His circumstances were not so as to show that side all that much. His actions on the other hand saved many.

    Just my two cents.
    Last edited by Rian; September 03, 2014 at 12:30 AM.

  14. #298
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: If Sasuke ever learns to be compassionate, would he be the ideal leader, compared to Naruto?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rian View Post
    You have a point though I think Tobirama was not as biased as people make hims out to be. He had made a logical conclusion on his part and he tried to include them in main stream. Anyway..
    There was no logical conclusion to claiming all Uchiha were bad when evidence points otherwise.

    Quote Quote:
    But we also saw how he didn't hesitate to strike Karin. Or sideline Kakashi and Sakura in rude manner. Kakashi was too seasoned to care about it all that much, especially under the circumstances and Sakura's spirit was somewhat re-stored by Naruto and her own liking for her old team mate as well as wish to help out and fight if possible in the war. Sasuke's action didn't inspire them to do anything there.
    Back when Sasuke was evil/not entirely as good as he is now, though. Let's not forget Sasuke also caught Sakura when she was falling and told Kakashi and Sakura to get away, as well as let Naruto go with his reverse harem no jutsu plan. Important to note because the Sasuke of old would not have done any of those things, except for Sasuke during the chuunin exams.



    Quote Quote:
    Naruto on the other hand would need someone to help with administration. But then a Hokage doesn't have to deal with everything on his own. Good advisers and staff would take care of it. Shikamaru is there. Sasuke can be there too is he is willing. Tobirama helped Hashi, didn't he?
    He did, but Hashirama still made the decisions. Likewise, Naruto and Kakashi can help Sasuke with the public/social aspects of being a hokage.

    Quote Quote:
    I say this because Naruto has something else equally important in a leader- he inspires other people. Despite his power he doesn't make others feel threatened, instead he makes them want to risk themselves for helping him. That's something not that true in case of Sasuke. People were helping him out because of personal loyalties( Jaggu) , childish infatuation ( karin) or for greater good and reasoning ( Kakashi) Friendship and love ( Naruto and Sakura). But others were not so accepting that readily when he declared he wanted to be a hokage too.
    Of course others weren't accepting. Sasuke left the village and joined the very same enemy that dealt tremendous damage to Konoha just so he could get stronger, and then he joined the criminal group known as Akatsuki. It has nothin to do with Sasuke, but what he did that has people not wanting him to be a hokage.



    Quote Quote:
    A leader is one who can lead and Naruto leads; despite his short comings he is able to bring people together without forcing them power. I see Naruto as the king while Sasuke as a general. Both can be good hokage in their own way. It would be more like what they will need after the war ends.
    Naruto doesn't lead, he just inspires people and makes friends. That's not really leading, not the way Sasuke has led Taka.
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  15. #299
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: If Sasuke ever learns to be compassionate, would he be the ideal leader, compared to Naruto?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    No, he didn't. He knew where they were, meaning no need for Karin, and he prefers to handle the killing himself, meaning no need for Suigetsu or Juugo, and at that point in the series there wasn't a single character in Konoha that could have posed an actual threat to him, again meaning no need for a team. The only person who came close was Kakashi, who we actually saw could barely complete with a tired Sasuke.
    I don't know what manga you've been reading but I'm sure it isn't the same as everyone else. Sasuke barely defeated Danzo, so I have no doubt in my mind that had he attacked Konoha on his own, it would have been a worse beating than the one he received from Killer B.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Make things up? Fodders are enemies that can be taken out by nameless enemies, and thus, given they were being taken out by the nameless Alliance forces, they were fodder. Enemies that aren't fodder would only be capable of being taken out by named and key characters, which is kind of what makes them "impressive".
    Yes, make things up! As far as I am aware, only the Rookie 9 managed to defeat any of the mini Juubi. The nameless Alliance members were busy taking a pasting and Hashirama did something useless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Naruto's physical speed is on par with teleportation, a feat he has shown multiple times against Kaguya. And we get shown that the boosted Kamui became faster.
    Do you even proof read before posting or do the bare minimum in selecting references? If Naruto's movements were fast enough to reach Sakura wouldn't he have done it himself instead of asking Sasuke? Kamui gets faster yes, but instant?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    1) Sasuke still moved when he needed to, saving Sakura while during so instead of just leaving her. And Orochiamru threw TWO kunai. 2) The Sound Trio weren't regular Oto ninjas, and the point is that Sasuke saved both Sakura and Naruto from being killed. 3) Sakura's actions beforehand doesn't change the point, that Sasuke was gonna sacrifice himself to give Naruto the chance to save himself and Sakura. 4) He went after Itachi specifically to save Naruto, not to get revenge, as we were actually shown. 5) He was willing to leave Karin when she told him before that she didn't want to join, so he didn't need her that much. 6) Itachi was an Edo summon, he couldn't truly be killed as Sasuke knew, and Sasuke voiced no issue when Itachi was having Kabuto cancel Edo Tensei, so saying he only acted because he wanted answers is clearly false. 7) Sasuke was saving Naruto long before there was any sign that Naruto would needed to win. 8) Sasuke fought Madara specifically because Hashirama asked him to do so. And really, if you are gonna claim acting in addition to anger and against "non-threats" don't count, then Naruto pretty much loses several of his own, since he fought Pain out of revenge for Jiraiya and none of the Zetsus clones could ever be said to be a threat to him. So Sasuke would still have more examples to his name then Naruto.
    1) Sasuke moved to save himself, and neither kunai landed anywhere Sakura; 2) he didn't sacrifice himself, which is what you originally claimed; 3) Sasuke was motivated by more than just the desire to save Sakura; 4) Sasuke mentioned Naruto as an afterthought, his thoughts were solely focused on revenge. I don't remember him telling Naruto to run or telling Itachi to stay away from Naruto; 5) She was his first choice, and she saved his life on multiple ocassions; 6) Reading a different manga again? Sasuke wasn't happy about it and asked Itachi why he would go so far for Konoha and then when the Itachi had Kabuto perform the seals, Sasuke said...; 7) Naruto was owning the battlefield, so there was no question that Naruto was integral 8) Hashirama said stop Madara without force, but Sasuke chose to fight = arrogance; 9) Nagato was actively hunting Naruto or did you forget the battle took place in Konoha, and more importantly Naruto didn't exact his revenge on Konan or Nagato.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Um, that's Gaara's reasons for fighting. Sasuke went because he was a Konoha ninja. And you seem to have missed the whole thing about "wanting to prevent what happen to his clan from happening again". If Sasuke didn't care about the people, he wouldn't care if they got killed or used. And your argument just doesn't work. First off, you have no idea who Sasuke currently loves and cherish, or who he would see as the king. Secondly, his reaction about Konoha was well before this point, so that's moot. More importantly, you really can't even answer those questions for Kakashi, much less Naruto. Heck, the only person who has even talked about the whole king thing has been Shikamaru. And considering how Naruto was willing to throw the village under the bus for his own selfish desires, that seems laughable. In case you forgot, Naruto made clear he would have had no problem with Ino and Sakura running off to get killed by Kumo and starting a war between the villages, despite the fact he easily had the power to stop them.
    Lol, you're bordering on the obsurd. Sasuke wanted to fight Gaara, because he wanted to see Gaara's true self; he wanted a death match. I asked you to idenfity those things. Again, I'm sure you don't read the same manga, because if you did you would know the king is a re-ocurring theme, talked about by numerous characters. When did Naruto say that? Link, please!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Um, you do realize that that's an interrupted statement, not a question, as shown by the (...) instead of a question mark. It's pretty obviously that Sasuke was gonna say something like "What am I gonna do?", since before he got interrupted he had no way of getting the answers he was after.
    Um, you do realize you that that's a nonsense statement? Sasuke was an avenger; it was motivation and raison d'etre. Now that he is no longer an avenger, who and what is he? That's what he was trying to figure out, hence the type of questions preceeding the interrupted statement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Root was after him because of Danzo, who wanted Sasuke dead for personal reasons. And the Rookies only decided that because they didn't want Naruto to have to deal with doing it. The ninjas at the restaurant were regular ninjas, which is what I said, and that's the point - regular ninjas thought highly of Sasuke. Attacking the summit doesn't matter, that got pinned on Obito's actions.
    Danzo wanted Sasuke dead because the was a traitor and the thought of Orochimaru acquiring his body was something he couldn't tolerate. The Rookies decided to kill Sasuke because they believed it was all of their responsibility. Those ninja could have been genin or chuunin, neither of which are given the power to elect the new hokage. So because it was Obito's idea it means Sasuke hasn't commited a crime? I think being an accessory to a crime makes you just as responsible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    No it's not. They aren't the "best" of their respective clans, or among the strongest ninjas in the village. And no, the only people who even know that Sasuke was gonna destroy the village is Team Seven, and they clearly wouldn't mention it because they want Sasuke to return, and Team Taka, who won't mention it because they are completely loyal to Sasuke. No one else is aware of Sasuke's former goal, so there's no reason it would be a factor in anything. And since the former Hokages have admitted that they indeed screwed up, and that the current system is flawed, that really doesn't damage the point about Sasuke having no problem listening to them. And again, we were shown at the summit that the trust was questionable at best. You're confusing the fact that Naruto and Gaara get along well with the villages getting along well, which are far different cases. Not to mention, that even if that was true, then that would still break your case, since the villages would be having a good relationship despite Naruto not being Hokage, meaning there isn't any need for him to be Hokage for things to work out.
    The Rookies aren't among the stongest in the village!? Team 7 are most definitely the successors of their respective clans; Shikamaru is a member of the war council and the proxy commander of division 4; Team 10 are as skilled as their parents and their likely succossors; and Team 8 are likely the best tracking team in Konoha. They don't need to know that he wanted to attack Konoha, they only need to know he's a missing nin who aligned with a known fugutive, joined a criminal organisation and declared war against Kumo. The kages didn't trust each other but they trusted Hashirama. I'm not confusing anything, as it was shown that even old dogs like Chiyo and Oniki trust Naruto, which is exactly the reason why he would be chosen as hokage. How can you take a plus and then say it's a reason for someone not to be nominated?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    The case for Sasuke is just fine. Just because you disagree or dislike them doesn't change that. And you talk about the other Hokages, which is hilarious given that Sasuke fits the criteria far more then Naruto.
    How does he fit the criteria more than Naruto? Orochimaru was considered a prime candidate for the same reasons you're giving for Sasuke and yet we know now, that Jiraiya was actually considered the better choice. Sasuke's hatred hasn't subsided and his motives are unclear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Leadership: All the Hokages have shown or have implied leadership experience before becoming Hokage. Sasuke also has shown leadership of both Team Seven and Team Taka. Naruto hasn't been shown leading anyone.
    Personality: Sasuke's personality and beliefs are similar to Tobirama, Danzo, Kakashi, and Itachi, whereas Naruto is only similar to Hashirama.
    Pragmatism: All the Hokages have been shown willing to put aside their own desires and life for the bigger picture. Sasuke too has been shown willing to set aside his own life and dream for the bigger picture. Naruto has been shown the opposite, completely unwilling to give up what he wants even if it meant endangering the live of others. They all also have realized that they must sacrifice a few to save the many, something Naruto refuses to understand.
    Intelligence: Nearly all the Hokages have been shown brilliant, either tactically in battle or via inventions, just like Sasuke. The only one who hasn't shown such is Hashirama, but even he's not shown as an idiot like Naruto.
    So this the sum total of your defence? A criteria comprising four qualities, a few embelishments topped with a bunch of statements without reference...

    How about loyalty, respect, and trust?

    Leadership goes beyond battle strategy and barking orders, which is all Sasuke really did as leader of Taka and Team 7. Sasuke's personality? He's rude, dismissive and abrasive, which is very unlike the others. What are Sasuke's believes? Set aside his dreams? What are his dreams? Risk his life? I saw Sasuke running for his life while Naruto was thinking about the bigger picture. I'm talking about Black Zetsu in case you hadn't guessed it. That's a pretty big oversight if you ask me. Intelligence? You mean battle prowess? Meh!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    The only thing Naruto has going for him over Sasuke is the ability to connect with people, which is moot as the only Hokage that comes close to having such a skill was Hashirama, meaning it's not in the criteria. There isn't anything else all the Hokages have that Naruto also share, or is lacked by Sasuke.
    Naruto has the trust and support of the village, his nindo makes others strive for better and his hearts and minds approach has changed the hearts of even the most hardened murders. Those qualities alone outweigh anything you have mentioned in favour of Sasuke. Naruto fought his inner demons, he's current training a future hokage, his capacity for learning is limitless, he trusts his friends, loves his village and does everything in his power to protect those that need it.

    How about you reply with your usual fanfiction and we agree to disagree?

  16. #300
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: If Sasuke ever learns to be compassionate, would he be the ideal leader, compared to Naruto?

    Quote Quote:
    Leadership goes beyond battle strategy and barking orders, which is all Sasuke really did as leader of Taka and Team 7. Sasuke's personality? He's rude, dismissive and abrasive, which is very unlike the others. What are Sasuke's believes? Set aside his dreams? What are his dreams? Risk his life? I saw Sasuke running for his life while Naruto was thinking about the bigger picture. I'm talking about Black Zetsu in case you hadn't guessed it. That's a pretty big oversight if you ask me. Intelligence? You mean battle prowess? Meh!
    You accuse RK of posting fanfics, but you are doing the same yourself, even ignoring what the manga has shown. I don't wanna argue with another member that goes with his own interpretations instead of manga, but I still haven't seen proof that Sasuke was running away and didn't know Naruto was gonna deal with the Black Zetsu. We also see when he's running away that he told Sakura and Kakashi to run away, which contradicts your claim that he is "rude, dismissive, and abrasive." Something that he stopped being for the most part when the chuunin exams started up to facing Itachi.


    And again, social aspects aren't the only thing required of a hokage. All hokage aren't noticed for their love and compassion, but for their power and ability to defend the village and make the "right" choices. When Hashirama is mentioned, he is mentioned for being the strongest shinobi ever. When Minato is mentioned, he is mentioned as the fastest shinobi with tremendous potential. When Tsunade is mentioned, she's mentioned as the strongest kunoichi who, like Minato after her, played a crucial role in Konoha winning a war.
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