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Translations: Bleach 600 (2)
the world is shitty place ,because people like Minato , Naruto , Hashirama and Tobirama , think they are know everything and others are wrong ....Quote:
2+2 = 4
Obito killed 40,000 ninja in one day and he should get killed ....
Naruto calling a mass murder as "coolest guy" , Kakashi just praise him and Minato sympathy with him ...
why no one said all these bullshit ( coolest guy , best ninja ) for Hiddan of Deidara !?
Can you prove that he didn't? As far as I recall, he only said that he prioritized his and Naruto's lives because without both, the world was doomed. He never threw Sakura or Kakashi under the bus, to my recollection, he just refused to save them if it meant endangering his or Naruto's life. I do not see how it's "irrefutable" when Sasuke is about getting the job done.
The claim is based on assumption.
I agree. I prefer Sasuke's approach most of the time, but Naruto's approach can be good as well. This war though, proves Sasuke's approach is way better.
charge time but that only lends to the idea that he would have less time to manoeuvre once he got there.
You could be right but I'm sure Sakura would disagree with you. Furthermore, is it not a fact that he has tried to kill both Sakura and Kakashi? Is it not a fact that when he no longer has a use for someone he discards them? People talk of Taka and yet he cared little for Jugo and Suigetsu before and after he killed Danzo, but joined forces as soon as they proved useful again. I know he's all about getting the job done. That's the problem. That's why he's trash!
Going up against fodder isn't contributing, That's a role any and every ninja could do, and where was it shown he ever began to think of Sakura differently? He has always considered her useless, since the very beginning of the series. yeah, sacrifice himself for others. Kakashi was faster, thanks to his recent boost, just like how he was faster then Naruto too. There is plenty of evidence, as we have directly seen it: He jumped in front of Haku's needles to save Naruto, jumped in front of Sakura and that guy to protect them from Zabuza's ninjas, pulled Sakura away from Orochimaru in the FoD, pulled both Naruto and Sakura out of the way of Zaku's attack in the FoD, was gonna use a fourth Chidori to buy time for Naruto to get Sakura away from Gaara, ran to save Naruto from Itachi, jumped in front of Karin when Juugo attacked, pulled out Amaterasu to save Team Taka, unnecessarily jumped in front of Itachi several times against Kabuto, used Susanoo to save Naruto or attempt to several times against Obito, went after Madara despite knowing the difference in power and not wanting to, and as previous mentioned, saved Sakura twice.
The Rookies aren't the currently elite, nor as mentioned, is their approval needed. Sasuke doesn't care what they think because they don't know the truth of why he did what he did and thus their opinion is lacking. Were they to be told, they most likely would change their tune, especially Team Ten considering they were all for disobeying the rules and Hokage to achieve revenge for Asuma. Sasuke has shown no problem listening to people who know what they are talking about. It was the entire point of him getting the Hokages revived and asking them the questions he wanted, followed by listening to what they told him and forming an opinion on that. And no, the other nations aren't material considerations. In case you have forgotten, the relationship between the villages were far from trusting. The villages and their leaders were distrusting and at odds with each other. We saw this at the summit, and again during the beginning of the war. So "trust" and "integrity" is laughable when none of the villages trusted each other in the first place.
And you really trying to use Naruto's change of heart dues ex as a counter point? In the real world AND this manga, people don't normally instantly do a 180 just because they are talked to. Plus, seeing as Sasuke's idea was the same as Kakashi's, who I'm pretty sure we regard as having good potential for being a leader, seems more like Sasuke was acting like a good leader would in that situation. That's not even taking into account what actually happen afterward (which while I could believe that Madara could have still controlled the dead Obito) I serious doubt that Zetsu would have been capable of that (else he could have simply controlled Madara or Nagato before that point), meaning that at the very least Madara would have been an Edo Tensei a while longer and Black Zetsu couldn't distract Minato and Kakashi.
Also, Minato and Hiruzen's failures are why Tobirama was a better leader. he wouldn't have spared Orochimaru like Hiruzen did, he would have ended Orochimaru. He also would not have done a stupid ass thing like sacrifice his life unnecessarily when the village would be better off with him alive. Same with Sasuke, and why he's a more ideal leader.
If Minato was alive, would the Kumo have the balls to try to kidnap a Hyuuga or demand the leader's corpse? If Orochimaru was killed, then would Sasuke have left Konoha? I say nay. They were horrible leaders, which sucks because Minato was portrayed as this cold blooded killer in the face of enemies but a warm and compassionate person amongst people not enemies, which was actually cool and unique.
I don't think it's really Kakashi's fault. Sakura just lacks the gumption to kill someone she loves, just as Hiruzen lacked the gumption to kill his beloved pupil.
weren't aimed at her -1. Lol, Oto nin can't even be considered a threat to Sasuke for your statement to be valid -1. Gonna use a fourth Chidori? May I remind you why Sakura ended up in that situtation? I'll admit that he gave a good speech but it was motivated by more than just his desire to save Sakura. He attacked Itachi out of anger not because he was trying to save Naruto. He needed Karin and truth be told, Juugo wasn't much of a treat to Sasuke -1. I've already acknowledged his use of Amaterasu to save Taka +1. Sasuke wasn't saving Itachi, what he was protecting was the information he wanted to gleen from Itachi -1. Saved Naruto because it was the logical thing to do. Fought Madara alone because he's arrogant.
reason. Sasuke is fighting for the village because it's a keep sake of his brother and not because he cares about the people who live there. It would seem that you too lack understanding of what having the will of fire entails. Who does Sasuke love and cherish!? How did he react when he found out Konoha had been destroyed? Who has he identified as being the 'king'?
believes the current problems were caused by them anyway. Suna and Konoha are experiencing the best relationship they've ever had because of the trust established between Naruto and Gaara. That trust means Konoha is more secure, so I believe it does hold some importance.
I have yet to see you build a viable case in favour of Sasuke that wasn't all smoke and mirrors. I read posts from you and M3J hoping there'd be more than just examples of infrequent or isolated instances where Sasuke has done something which would suggest he's not a total dick! Again, look up all the definitions / traits of hokage given by those who have been hokage or are considered hokage material and build a case to show how he fits that criteria. Once you've done that and compared it to Naruto, then we can have a sensible discussion.
Last edited by Dutchy; August 25, 2014 at 06:19 PM.
Only criteria Naruto fills is the social one when it comes to being a hokage. I still don't see how that makes him a better choice, or even a good choice in general. Sasuke is a better choice because he fulfills the whole leader aspect and decision making aspect pretty well, focusing on protecting the majority than just minority while leading the village.
Sasuke stopped acting like a dick when he focused less on revenge and turned into a better person after the Land of Waves arc thanks to Naruto and Sakura, the two people he cared about. I also don't remember him acting like a dick towards Taka until the Summit. Maybe one or two incidents, but I don't remember those either.
Sasuke went because he was a Konoha ninja. And you seem to have missed the whole thing about "wanting to prevent what happen to his clan from happening again". If Sasuke didn't care about the people, he wouldn't care if they got killed or used. And your argument just doesn't work. First off, you have no idea who Sasuke currently loves and cherish, or who he would see as the king. Secondly, his reaction about Konoha was well before this point, so that's moot. More importantly, you really can't even answer those questions for Kakashi, much less Naruto. Heck, the only person who has even talked about the whole king thing has been Shikamaru. And considering how Naruto was willing to throw the village under the bus for his own selfish desires, that seems laughable. In case you forgot, Naruto made clear he would have had no problem with Ino and Sakura running off to get killed by Kumo and starting a war between the villages, despite the fact he easily had the power to stop them.
The case for Sasuke is just fine. Just because you disagree or dislike them doesn't change that. And you talk about the other Hokages, which is hilarious given that Sasuke fits the criteria far more then Naruto.
Leadership: All the Hokages have shown or have implied leadership experience before becoming Hokage. Sasuke also has shown leadership of both Team Seven and Team Taka. Naruto hasn't been shown leading anyone.
Personality: Sasuke's personality and beliefs are similar to Tobirama, Danzo, Kakashi, and Itachi, whereas Naruto is only similar to Hashirama.
Pragmatism: All the Hokages have been shown willing to put aside their own desires and life for the bigger picture. Sasuke too has been shown willing to set aside his own life and dream for the bigger picture. Naruto has been shown the opposite, completely unwilling to give up what he wants even if it meant endangering the live of others. They all also have realized that they must sacrifice a few to save the many, something Naruto refuses to understand.
Intelligence: Nearly all the Hokages have been shown brilliant, either tactically in battle or via inventions, just like Sasuke. The only one who hasn't shown such is Hashirama, but even he's not shown as an idiot like Naruto.
The only thing Naruto has going for him over Sasuke is the ability to connect with people, which is moot as the only Hokage that comes close to having such a skill was Hashirama, meaning it's not in the criteria. There isn't anything else all the Hokages have that Naruto also share, or is lacked by Sasuke.
Sasuke won't be a bad hokage in normal time and I agree he is better at organizing as we can see how he picked his new team after dealing with Oro as well as in battle field. But we also saw how he didn't hesitate to strike Karin. Or sideline Kakashi and Sakura in rude manner. Kakashi was too seasoned to care about it all that much, especially under the circumstances and Sakura's spirit was somewhat re-stored by Naruto and her own liking for her old team mate as well as wish to help out and fight if possible in the war. Sasuke's action didn't inspire them to do anything there.
Naruto on the other hand would need someone to help with administration. But then a Hokage doesn't have to deal with everything on his own. Good advisers and staff would take care of it. Shikamaru is there. Sasuke can be there too is he is willing. Tobirama helped Hashi, didn't he?
I say this because Naruto has something else equally important in a leader- he inspires other people. Despite his power he doesn't make others feel threatened, instead he makes them want to risk themselves for helping him. That's something not that true in case of Sasuke. People were helping him out because of personal loyalties( Jaggu) , childish infatuation ( karin) or for greater good and reasoning ( Kakashi) Friendship and love ( Naruto and Sakura). But others were not so accepting that readily when he declared he wanted to be a hokage too.
Hinata started to stalk Naruto as a fellow user which turned into admiration later on seeing how hard he tried. Shikamaru told Shikaku Naruto make him want to walk with him. Nagato, Obito accepted him and decided to try his idea of peace despite not agreeing him completely. Sand was an ally to Konoha and Gara helped Sasuke to an extent in his battle with Raikage for Naruto. Without Obito's help Kaguya would have already taken over several chapters ago. Obito was entirely won over by Naruto. Naruto has been making connections with so many people in the alliance by his own disposition and personality alone. His words made other people give their best in face of utter defeat more than once.
A leader is one who can lead and Naruto leads; despite his short comings he is able to bring people together without forcing them power. I see Naruto as the king while Sasuke as a general. Both can be good hokage in their own way. It would be more like what they will need after the war ends.
Would Naruto be a jounin ever- not sure. Can Sasuke become one? In a blink. But being a hokage may work on a different level because it needs a different kind of skill set. Hiruzen's might as a warrior didn't make him that much of success. Danzou would have faced much worse than just disbanding of root if he pulled a massacre with someone like Naruto as Hokage. Itachi wouldn't need to play intermediary for Naruto would have been talking to Uchihas himself.
Someone raised issue of Itachi- and him not being compassionate. I think he was compassionate in his own way. His circumstances were not so as to show that side all that much. His actions on the other hand saved many.
Just my two cents.
Last edited by Rian; September 03, 2014 at 12:30 AM.
Back when Sasuke was evil/not entirely as good as he is now, though. Let's not forget Sasuke also caught Sakura when she was falling and told Kakashi and Sakura to get away, as well as let Naruto go with his reverse harem no jutsu plan. Important to note because the Sasuke of old would not have done any of those things, except for Sasuke during the chuunin exams.Quote:
He did, but Hashirama still made the decisions. Likewise, Naruto and Kakashi can help Sasuke with the public/social aspects of being a hokage.Quote:
Of course others weren't accepting. Sasuke left the village and joined the very same enemy that dealt tremendous damage to Konoha just so he could get stronger, and then he joined the criminal group known as Akatsuki. It has nothin to do with Sasuke, but what he did that has people not wanting him to be a hokage.Quote:
Naruto doesn't lead, he just inspires people and makes friends. That's not really leading, not the way Sasuke has led Taka.Quote:
pasting and Hashirama did something useless.
references? If Naruto's movements were fast enough to reach Sakura wouldn't he have done it himself instead of asking Sasuke? Kamui gets faster yes, but instant?
wasn't happy about it and asked Itachi why he would go so far for Konoha and then when the Itachi had Kabuto perform the seals, Sasuke said...; 7) Naruto was owning the battlefield, so there was no question that Naruto was integral 8) Hashirama said stop Madara without force, but Sasuke chose to fight = arrogance; 9) Nagato was actively hunting Naruto or did you forget the battle took place in Konoha, and more importantly Naruto didn't exact his revenge on Konan or Nagato.
true self; he wanted a death match. I asked you to idenfity those things. Again, I'm sure you don't read the same manga, because if you did you would know the king is a re-ocurring theme, talked about by numerous characters. When did Naruto say that? Link, please!
traitor and the thought of Orochimaru acquiring his body was something he couldn't tolerate. The Rookies decided to kill Sasuke because they believed it was all of their responsibility. Those ninja could have been genin or chuunin, neither of which are given the power to elect the new hokage. So because it was Obito's idea it means Sasuke hasn't commited a crime? I think being an accessory to a crime makes you just as responsible.
candidate for the same reasons you're giving for Sasuke and yet we know now, that Jiraiya was actually considered the better choice. Sasuke's hatred hasn't subsided and his motives are unclear.
How about loyalty, respect, and trust?
Leadership goes beyond battle strategy and barking orders, which is all Sasuke really did as leader of Taka and Team 7. Sasuke's personality? He's rude, dismissive and abrasive, which is very unlike the others. What are Sasuke's believes? Set aside his dreams? What are his dreams? Risk his life? I saw Sasuke running for his life while Naruto was thinking about the bigger picture. I'm talking about Black Zetsu in case you hadn't guessed it. That's a pretty big oversight if you ask me. Intelligence? You mean battle prowess? Meh!
How about you reply with your usual fanfiction and we agree to disagree?
You accuse RK of posting fanfics, but you are doing the same yourself, even ignoring what the manga has shown. I don't wanna argue with another member that goes with his own interpretations instead of manga, but I still haven't seen proof that Sasuke was running away and didn't know Naruto was gonna deal with the Black Zetsu. We also see when he's running away that he told Sakura and Kakashi to run away, which contradicts your claim that he is "rude, dismissive, and abrasive." Something that he stopped being for the most part when the chuunin exams started up to facing Itachi.Quote:
And again, social aspects aren't the only thing required of a hokage. All hokage aren't noticed for their love and compassion, but for their power and ability to defend the village and make the "right" choices. When Hashirama is mentioned, he is mentioned for being the strongest shinobi ever. When Minato is mentioned, he is mentioned as the fastest shinobi with tremendous potential. When Tsunade is mentioned, she's mentioned as the strongest kunoichi who, like Minato after her, played a crucial role in Konoha winning a war.