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Thread: The missing half of kaguya's powers?

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    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    The missing half of kaguya's powers?

    Ok, so we have seen that kaguya is basically the source of all conflict in the manga. Haguromo's testimony and her current appearance confirm she is the strongest one there has been and the source of everything. Now for a bit of context.

    Kaguya had two sons, haguromo and presumably hamura.

    Haguromo had 2 sons, ashura and indra, each of whom inherited half of his powers. One got his eyes and the other got his body. It is interesting to note that each one got presicely half of his powers. Seeing the chapter it does not seem like haguromo got all of the powers kaguya had. And the descendants of ashura and indra did not get the full powers they had.

    Anyways, since haguromo did not get all of kaguya's powers it stands to reason that hamura actually did get the other powers. It makes sense because the byakugan exists and yet it does not descend from the rikudo so the only one that could have that power and pass it on is his brother. Now, there are two parts to consider here. What we have seen so far is that each subsequent generation tends to inherit one half of the powers of the preceding one so it makes sense hamura would have had 2 kids each with a half of his powers.

    They have to stand up to kaguya so it makes sense that they will have to actually match her powers at least through teamwork as naruto and sasuke did against madara. So the question is, will this happen? Are there inheritos to his powers (Eye and body perhaps)? The hyuga are around so his descendants without a doubt exist, at worst they would need to find the other lineage and perhaps go through a similar awakening as naruto and sasuke did.

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    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: The missing half of kaguya's powers?

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Ok, so we have seen that kaguya is basically the source of all conflict in the manga. Haguromo's testimony and her current appearance confirm she is the strongest one there has been and the source of everything. Now for a bit of context.

    Kaguya had two sons, haguromo and presumably hamura.

    Haguromo had 2 sons, ashura and indra, each of whom inherited half of his powers. One got his eyes and the other got his body. It is interesting to note that each one got presicely half of his powers. Seeing the chapter it does not seem like haguromo got all of the powers kaguya had. And the descendants of ashura and indra did not get the full powers they had.

    Anyways, since haguromo did not get all of kaguya's powers it stands to reason that hamura actually did get the other powers. It makes sense because the byakugan exists and yet it does not descend from the rikudo so the only one that could have that power and pass it on is his brother. Now, there are two parts to consider here. What we have seen so far is that each subsequent generation tends to inherit one half of the powers of the preceding one so it makes sense hamura would have had 2 kids each with a half of his powers.

    They have to stand up to kaguya so it makes sense that they will have to actually match her powers at least through teamwork as naruto and sasuke did against madara. So the question is, will this happen? Are there inheritos to his powers (Eye and body perhaps)? The hyuga are around so his descendants without a doubt exist, at worst they would need to find the other lineage and perhaps go through a similar awakening as naruto and sasuke did.
    The Hyuuga's being one part of the second pair of descendants makes sense for obvious reasons.

    Is it possible the Uzumaki's are the other part?

    We're told that Senju and Uzumaki's are "cousins". Is it possible that their family relation ties all the way back to the Sage's sons and Hamura's children? It would certainly make sense if you ask me.

    The Uzumaki's are known for having long lifespans, not to mention their sealing techniques are based on Haguromo's designs.

    So, IMO I think the Uzumaki's are probably the 4th offshoot of Kaguya. Now the question is does this mean Naruto is even more special? Because while he doesn't have any direct lineage to the Senju clan, he is the reincarnation of their founding member in Ashura. Not to mention, he also may possibly be a direct descendant of Hamura.
    Last edited by Delbi; June 06, 2014 at 01:52 AM.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Fox666's Avatar
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    Re: The missing half of kaguya's powers?

    It's confusing. How exactly does someone passes part of his Chakra to a child? Shouldn't the parents' Chakra decrease or something? Also, who were Asura followers, if nobody else had Chakra besides his family?

    Kaguya had the Byakugan, and a combination of Sharingan and Rinnengan. Since it was said that the Byakugan predates the Sharingan, and the Juubi has the same eye, I think it's safe to assume she gained that eye after eating the Shinju's fruit. Meaning that the Byakugan is of "extra-terrestrial" origin, while the Sharingan or Rinnegan came from the Juubi. The later one is not that weird, since all Chakra originated from the Juubi in the first place.

    Hagoromo had the Rinnengan. His son Indra the Sharingan, which Hagoromo didn't. Sasuke with Indra's power had a combination of Sharingan and Rinnegan (slightly different from Kaguya's), which Indra didn't. Maybe the Sharingan and Rinnengan have always been the same thing all along, but with part of it asleep? Nonetheless, there is no Byakugan on this, maybe that's what Hamura got?

    But Hamura is not mentioned anywhere in the history, except by Hagoromo himself. It could be speculated that he returned to Kaguya's "far away land". So I don't know if he could be the one that passed the Byakugan.

    Edit: Kaguya did mention that Naruto and Sasuke could be Hagoromo and Haruma reincarnations, so it seems Haruma left descendants.
    Last edited by Fox666; June 06, 2014 at 01:44 AM.
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    did you say something about timelines?! naruto ate it NOM NOM NOM IT'S GONE.

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    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: The missing half of kaguya's powers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    The Hyuuga's being one part of the second pair of descendants makes sense for obvious reasons.

    Is it possible the Uzumaki's are the other part?

    We're told that Senju and Uzumaki's are "cousins". Is it possible that their family relation ties all the way back to the Sage's sons and Hamura's children? It would certainly make sense if you ask me.

    The Uzumaki's are known for having long lifespans, not to mention their sealing techniques are based on Haguromo's designs.

    So, IMO I think the Uzumaki's are probably the 4th offshoot of Kaguya. Now the question is does this mean Naruto is even more special? Because while he doesn't have any direct lineage to the Senju clan, he is the reincarnation of their founding member in Ashura. Not to mention, he also may possibly be a direct descendant of Hamura.
    The implication here is that the uzumaki have the senju side of the godly powers, that is how naruto got to be the successor of ashura though. Unless the uzumaki have two halves of kaguya's powers although that would be a tad weird. The uzumaki's symbol is already pretty much stated to originate from ashura though, we have seen that a couple of times (the uzumaki have the spiral thing and ashura has the circle).

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member DemonKing888's Avatar
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    Re: The missing half of kaguya's powers?

    What about that Unknown Clan Jugo is from? They absorb natural energy, so in a way they're Sages. We know only Sage mode could harm those who reach Hagoromo's level so my idea is that Hamura had the Byakugan (eyes) and Jugo's Sage mode (body) Kimimaro could be a cousin of Jugo's clan as well because of his bone manipulation. In fact Kimimaro's Clan is called the Kaguya Clan
    http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Kaguya_Clan

    This means Hamura had Byakugan with body manipulation style techniques

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Fox666's Avatar
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    Re: The missing half of kaguya's powers?

    Kimimaro has the same hair split as Kaguya, and circular eyebrowns. So there is something to it.

    And I just realized that Hagoromo appearence is a lot like Cursed Seal Level 2. Hmm...
    Last edited by Fox666; June 06, 2014 at 11:23 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by IChallengeYou! View Post
    TOBI IS OBITO

    did you say something about timelines?! naruto ate it NOM NOM NOM IT'S GONE.

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    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner lomami's Avatar
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    Re: The missing half of kaguya's powers?

    Kimimaro's clan had clearly the features of Kaguya hime so they must originate from direct atavism of her true bloodline limit (other is byakugan), plus they were all about violence and called Kaguya. I like the theory that Hamura had the uzumaki/Jugo/hozuki blood, since we know Orochimaru had always a knack for betting on good horses, and byakugan.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member marshall313's Avatar
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    Re: The missing half of kaguya's powers?

    Quote Originally Posted by lomami View Post
    Kimimaro's clan had clearly the features of Kaguya hime so they must originate from direct atavism of her true bloodline limit (other is byakugan), plus they were all about violence and called Kaguya. I like the theory that Hamura had the uzumaki/Jugo/hozuki blood, since we know Orochimaru had always a knack for betting on good horses, and byakugan.
    But the possibility of that theory about jugo'p/hozuki blood are almost close to none. Jugo's clans power came from the snake village. They just evolve over time for living outskirt of that cave/village. It's very plausible given the fact that even in the frog village, their falls/oil has the ability to grant the natural energy to forcefully absorb into the humans body.

    And didn't orochimaru or kabuto already said that the source of the jugo's clans power is the place called ''ryuchi cave''.

    I even doubt orochimaru knew hamura and even kaguya.

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    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: The missing half of kaguya's powers?

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    The implication here is that the uzumaki have the senju side of the godly powers, that is how naruto got to be the successor of ashura though. Unless the uzumaki have two halves of kaguya's powers although that would be a tad weird. The uzumaki's symbol is already pretty much stated to originate from ashura though, we have seen that a couple of times (the uzumaki have the spiral thing and ashura has the circle).
    I don't see it that way.

    The Uzumaki's and Senju are similar but not the same, similar to how the Hyuuga clan is similar but not the same as the Uchiha clan. If the Senju and Uzumaki's are indeed cousins, there common ancestor could be Kaguya.

    Naruto doesn't necessarily have to be related to Ashura to be his incarnation, I don't think that was ever stated and it isn't how the idea of reincarnation works anyway.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: The missing half of kaguya's powers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    I don't see it that way.

    The Uzumaki's and Senju are similar but not the same, similar to how the Hyuuga clan is similar but not the same as the Uchiha clan. If the Senju and Uzumaki's are indeed cousins, there common ancestor could be Kaguya.

    Naruto doesn't necessarily have to be related to Ashura to be his incarnation, I don't think that was ever stated and it isn't how the idea of reincarnation works anyway.
    There is no scenario under which kaguya is not a common ancestor to all of them. Also, what we see is not reincarnation per say, rather its chakra from the brothers clinging to people. Anyways, you are right, it hasn't been said, however I can't imagine how this would work if naruto was from a different line. We know for a fact that the sons of the rikudo inherited different powers each, each had a half. The rikudo got the rinnengan but he did not get the byakugan which suggests it was his brother that got it and passed it on to others. In this regard, it is extremely likely that the powers the other brother had are the half of the kaguya powers which the rikudo does not have. So the scenario is that there are 4 kinds of godly powers around which make up the power of kaguya.

    Anyways, the direct implication of this is that all 4 great powers are fundamentally genetic. They are genetic traits that you can't learn (although you can cheat by doing the stuff kabuto or madara did). Now, naruto right now is using the exact same powers ashura has. Naruto has exactly one half of the rikudo's powers, ashura's powers which are fundamentally genetic. Its a given naruto does not have the byakugan so that leaves one last bloodline which naruto could have through some other anscestor. Still, if naruto is using precisely ashura's powers then the only way for him to do that is that is that those powers are there in his genes. It would be like indra picking a non uchiha or the rikudo giving what he gave sasuke to someone who did not have a sharingan.

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    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: The missing half of kaguya's powers?

    The question is what is the 4th bloodline? What clan could it possibly be? I find it hard to believe it's a clan we haven't heard of.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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    Re: The missing half of kaguya's powers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    The question is what is the 4th bloodline? What clan could it possibly be? I find it hard to believe it's a clan we haven't heard of.
    Possibilities are endless lol.... As a crackpot theory, how about it not being a specific clan? On ashura's descendants we had the senju and the uzumaki so perhaps on the last descendant also spawned multiple clans. With ashura and indra we had the body and eyes being split. Perhaps that was also the case for the last potential son which leaves many possibilities. The first thing would be to consider the possibilities. Many have noted that the biju seem to be related to KG because they have abilities which are normally attributed to them. So one possibility is that all KG spawn from the last son. The second possibility is that the last son was somewhat like the senju/uzumaki who had exceptional bodies. Which perhaps points towards the gin and kin brothers. The raikage thought they might be descended from the sage considering they were able to assimilate the chakra of a biju into their own. Maybe the situation is that they descend from hamura and not from haguromo. It would be kinda fitting that all KG descend from kaguya too.

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    Re: The missing half of kaguya's powers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    The Uzumaki's are known for having long lifespans, not to mention their sealing techniques are based on Haguromo's designs.
    Did he really design them, though? If you ask me, Hamura is the singular ancestor of the Uzumaki and the progenitor of sealing jutsu, like Hagoromo is for ninjutsu. The visage we see behind Hagoromo when he seals his jutsu into Naruto and Sasuke was Hamura, who taught him how to do this whole 'sealing' nonsense (he's also the one who did the bulk of the sealing of the juubi). Then some stuff happened and he became the Shinigami.

    I'd prefer to believe that Indra's first children had the byakugan and sharingan, thus gaining "half of his power", especially if I'm right and (before he had children with some lucky lady) Indra had obtained the rinnegan. Splitting the power between those two seems more appropriate. This would also ring true to how some traits skip generations and whatnot (byakugan being great grandma to great grandchild).

    ---------- Post added at 02:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:47 PM ----------

    I think the other bloodlines exist because Hamura used an early form of ninshuu that involved directly sealing portions of his chakra to other people, sort of "mutating" their chakra pools. Which were then passed on and selected for over the generations for their high quality and led to things like Kaguya/Juugo clans' KG, and other non-bijuu/Indra/Ashura-related powers.

    Indra was disgusted with the mass sharing of power from their family, but Ashura saw his uncle as a hero and imitated his style, using something very similar to what Naruto used on the Alliance.

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    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: The missing half of kaguya's powers?

    Quote Originally Posted by badluckartist View Post
    Did he really design them, though? If you ask me, Hamura is the singular ancestor of the Uzumaki and the progenitor of sealing jutsu, like Hagoromo is for ninjutsu. The visage we see behind Hagoromo when he seals his jutsu into Naruto and Sasuke was Hamura, who taught him how to do this whole 'sealing' nonsense (he's also the one who did the bulk of the sealing of the juubi). Then some stuff happened and he became the Shinigami.

    I'd prefer to believe that Indra's first children had the byakugan and sharingan, thus gaining "half of his power", especially if I'm right and (before he had children with some lucky lady) Indra had obtained the rinnegan. Splitting the power between those two seems more appropriate. This would also ring true to how some traits skip generations and whatnot (byakugan being great grandma to great grandchild).

    ---------- Post added at 02:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:47 PM ----------

    I think the other bloodlines exist because Hamura used an early form of ninshuu that involved directly sealing portions of his chakra to other people, sort of "mutating" their chakra pools. Which were then passed on and selected for over the generations for their high quality and led to things like Kaguya/Juugo clans' KG, and other non-bijuu/Indra/Ashura-related powers.

    Indra was disgusted with the mass sharing of power from their family, but Ashura saw his uncle as a hero and imitated his style, using something very similar to what Naruto used on the Alliance.
    We have literally no reason at all to think the uzumaki come from hamura. If anything that naruto can use ashura's powers is clear evidence that naruto comes from ashura. The whole thing is fundamentally genetic, the only way for naruto to have ashura's powers or for sasuke to have indras is for them to be descended from them. The sage couldn't have given naruto or sasuke powers which would belong to hamura either, that would be power the sage does not have.

    I do think it makes sense that hamura had something to do with the sealing of the jubi though. The shinigami does kinda resemble kaguya to boot, maybe there is something else going on here. I am thinking that perhaps hamura was the one who sealed the jubi inside of haguromo using the shiki fuujin... Maybe the shinigami himself is hamura lol. It would explain why only the rikudo sennin was remembered, he was the one who could live on to make a legend.

  20. #15
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Bradhimself's Avatar
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    Re: The missing half of kaguya's powers?

    I feel Haruma wasn't introduced for no good reason. Uzumaki and Hyuuga are from Haruma is my bet.

    It would explain byakugan and also explain the relationship of Uzumaki and Senju.

    At 1st Hagoromo was the only child (Madara stated the 1st being born with chakra) and now he has a brother.

    Would tie off some loose ends.

    +1 for Haruma being the ancestors of Uzumaki and Hyuuga.
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