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View Poll Results: Haruma, The direct ancestor of Uzumaki & Hyuuga?

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  • Haruma is indeed the direct Ancestor

    21 84.00%
  • Hagoromo is the direct Ancestor

    2 8.00%
  • Uzumaki is an offshoot of Senju

    2 8.00%
  • Hyuuga is an offshoot of Uchiha

    0 0%
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Thread: Hamura and the Byakugan

  1. #16
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member marshall313's Avatar
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    Re: Hamura and the Byakugan

    But he actually lived by sealing the kyubi's chakra and became its jinchuuriki. Technically, minato died because of the shiki.

    The thing is, there's some instances in the manga that shows minato's lineage is somehow special.
    1. His body is somehow able to counter the kyubi's poisonous chakra.
    2. His body is very durable in a sense that he never died instantly when the kyubi impaled him with his claw.
    3. He was able to learnt the perfect sage mode.

    Well, kishi made his absolute rule that ONLY the uzumaki can be become the kyubi's jinchuuriki. So maybe minato is a half uzumaki and half senju all along.

  2. #17
    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member
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    Re: Hamura and the Byakugan

    edit : according to the manga all chakra users are descendants of either hagoromo or hamura which mean the original 4 families are hyuga, uzumaki uchiha and senju so this imply that by time it doesn't matter in what clan you are now you automaticly have blood that originate from 1 of the 4(if not a mixture of 2 or more depending on marriage etc), fallowing this logic minato pulling stuff that only the uzumakiare ableto do just means that somwhere in time one of his ancestors was an uzumaki
    Last edited by Arbalest; July 02, 2014 at 05:33 PM.

  3. #18
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Hamura and the Byakugan

    Quote Originally Posted by marshall313 View Post
    But he actually lived by sealing the kyubi's chakra and became its jinchuuriki. Technically, minato died because of the shiki.

    The thing is, there's some instances in the manga that shows minato's lineage is somehow special.
    1. His body is somehow able to counter the kyubi's poisonous chakra.
    2. His body is very durable in a sense that he never died instantly when the kyubi impaled him with his claw.
    3. He was able to learnt the perfect sage mode.

    Well, kishi made his absolute rule that ONLY the uzumaki can be become the kyubi's jinchuuriki. So maybe minato is a half uzumaki and half senju all along.
    I don't think kyubi poisoning is that an immediate death assuming it even is a thing to begin with. We would have seen people dying on the spot any time naruto used the chakra earlier in the manga and yet that was never the case. Minato was a jinchuiriki for half a minute and then died because of shiki fujin. Nothing can be reasonably inferred from that regarding minato's lineage or even strength.

    He died moments after he was impaled. I am not sure of how that says anything much about minato in any way. People in the manga are naturally more resilient than real life people anyways.

    There was never a rule like that. Mito and kushina might have ben chosen because they specifically had chakra that could suppress biju however that is still far from it being absolute that only uzumaki could be kurama's jinchuiriki. For all we know anyone could be made into a jinchuriki, it just so happens mito and kushina had a particular trait, unique even among uzumaki which naruto did not inherit, that made them convenient for it.

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  5. #19
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member marshall313's Avatar
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    Re: Hamura and the Byakugan

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    I don't think kyubi poisoning is that an immediate death assuming it even is a thing to begin with. We would have seen people dying on the spot any time naruto used the chakra earlier in the manga and yet that was never the case. Minato was a jinchuiriki for half a minute and then died because of shiki fujin. Nothing can be reasonably inferred from that regarding minato's lineage or even strength.

    He died moments after he was impaled. I am not sure of how that says anything much about minato in any way. People in the manga are naturally more resilient than real life people anyways.

    There was never a rule like that. Mito and kushina might have ben chosen because they specifically had chakra that could suppress biju however that is still far from it being absolute that only uzumaki could be kurama's jinchuiriki. For all we know anyone could be made into a jinchuriki, it just so happens mito and kushina had a particular trait, unique even among uzumaki which naruto did not inherit, that made them convenient for it.
    Minato clearly pointed it out that if kushina will die together with the kyubi, there would be no more jinchuuriki left that fit for the kyubi or something like that. Meaning, naruto inherit his mother's trait and he's perfectly fit to become a jinchuuriki. It was already been established that the kyubi's chakra is too poisonous for ordinary people. That's why the uzumaki fit to become the kyubi's jinchuuriki because their amazing life force/chakra was able to supress the kyubi,s chakra and they're able to counter the kyubi's poisonous chakra.

    Just to pointed it out that sakura was being poisoned by kurama's chakra just by being hit by one of naruto's kyubi's tail.

    No, neji died when he was impaled by those wooden sticks and so are the other ninjas from alliance.
    Jiraiya died because he was impaled by six rods.

    But all of that aren't comparable to what the kyubi did to minato. He and kushina had even had an arguments, he was still able to summon gerotora and able to heard kushina's farewell message to baby naruto. I

  6. #20
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Hamura and the Byakugan

    Quote Originally Posted by marshall313 View Post
    Minato clearly pointed it out that if kushina will die together with the kyubi, there would be no more jinchuuriki left that fit for the kyubi or something like that. Meaning, naruto inherit his mother's trait and he's perfectly fit to become a jinchuuriki. It was already been established that the kyubi's chakra is too poisonous for ordinary people. That's why the uzumaki fit to become the kyubi's jinchuuriki because their amazing life force/chakra was able to supress the kyubi,s chakra and they're able to counter the kyubi's poisonous chakra.

    Just to pointed it out that sakura was being poisoned by kurama's chakra just by being hit by one of naruto's kyubi's tail.

    No, neji died when he was impaled by those wooden sticks and so are the other ninjas from alliance.
    Jiraiya died because he was impaled by six rods.

    But all of that aren't comparable to what the kyubi did to minato. He and kushina had even had an arguments, he was still able to summon gerotora and able to heard kushina's farewell message to baby naruto. I
    When did minato say anything of the sort? The reasons for minato to seal the kyubi in naruto where to avoid the beast being resurrected without a jinchuiriki and protect the balance of biju along with entrusting everything to naruto, his son. It was not because naruto had magical uzumaki traits (which he does have but they were never said to be a factor).

    Also, naruto didn't succumb to the kyubi's chakra because of his magical genes, he didn't succumb to it because of how the seal was made. The kyubi's chakra only got dangerous when naruto actually started to transform into the kyubi, before that there were never any side effects of to anyone in spite of the fact that the chakra was used against multiple people. The seal naruto had was made so that it would constantly release a little bit of chakra and naruto would get used to it. That is what allowed naruto to survive the transformations, not that he could magically could resist it.

    That does not help your case, those people died shortly after too. They all got impaled and died, minato lasting a tad longer does not suggest he has any of what you say.

  7. #21
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member mbacarra's Avatar
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    Re: Hamura and the Byakugan

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    As I have said in other threads, with what we know so far it should stand to reason that the uzumaki are related to the senju. Naruto as of now is using ashura's powers which means that as a matter of fact naruto descends from ashura. There is no other conceivable way for naruto to have that half of the rikudo's powers because the whole thing is fundamentally genetic. Now, we do not have naruto's detailed family tree however naruto descending from haguromo is an written in stone iron clad fact. It is plausible naruto somehow ended up with the body and chakra of haguromo and hamura however at the moment we have no evidence to actually support that. Besides, how would that go? Did naruto get both from the uzumaki? Or did he get one from minato and one from kushina? With the uzumaki being distantly related to the senju I would think it is more likely that the implication is that the uzumaki are a branch of the senju more than anything.
    well, if Uzumaki was one of Hamura's children, technically they are still related to Ashura, still within the genes. It just so happened that Ashura "chose" an Uzumaki to be reborn into.

    ----------

    What if, the Uzumaki were one of Hamura's children, and in order to break the cycle of rebirth and suffering between the Uchiha and Senju, Ashura decided to be reborn into a different lineage, which is the Uzumaki? That the reason why this feud is still continuing until now is because of Hagoromo's doing, something like, Indra and Ashura are bound to be reborn until the rivalry is resolved.

    Or can Ashura really "choose" who he will be reborn into? Maybe Indra and Ashura are only bound to be reborn into Uchiha and Senju for eternity, until the rivalry issue is resolved. But if that is the case, how come Ashura was born in an Uzumaki? Could it be that Naruto is actually half Senju? (THanks Marshall313 for raising that idea). Think about it, the rivalry is between Senju and Uchiha alone, and yet, our main character is neither one. It seems that the rivalry is more like Uzumaki vs Uchiha and the senju has taken a back seat (i.e., Hashirama being the only legit tree-user, Tsunade being the "remaining" successor of the legit Senju tree-user).

    One could argue that, "well Uzumaki is probably just a Senju successor", which can be true as well, but the Uzumaki were known to be the clan who are adept with sealing, which is probably the least mentioned technique in the manga because it's a passive skill, and yet it is the ability used to defeat the biggest(?) villain which is Kaguya. It is also used in sealing the bijuu, which is a derivative of the jyuubi, which is related to Kaguya. Which means, the Uzumaki is of high importance and not just a "successor" of the Senju. If that were the case, then the Uzumaki could probably pass as the "third" child, but there were no indications at this point that Hagoromo has a third child.

    What I think is that, Hamura had 2 children, the elder Hyuuga and the younger Uzumaki (why I think Hyuuga is the elder? well probably because of the whole main and branch family thing). Unlike Hagoromo, Hamura, I assume, is a proud person (remember when Kaguya cried? Sasuke was the "image" for Hamura). And unlike Hagoromo, Hamura probably didn't have to choose his "real" successor, which makes me think, Hamura probably doesn't have half the Jyuubi--that's probably the reason why the Hyuuga only depends on taijutsu and not much on ninjutsu, and if you think about it clearly, their techniques are about "blocking" chakra, seems more like a "sealing" tech if you ask me. He then taught sealing tech to the Uzumaki as precautionary measures, because he probably understood the consequences of Hagoromo's actions.

    Well that's about it. My mind is racing after reading this thread. but it's a good discussion. I hope we get to see Hamura and know more about him and Kaguya in relation to Hagoromo's story.

    ---------- Post added at 09:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:14 PM ----------

    and then, I think about it, my theory has one slight flaw:

    if Uzumaki came from Hamura, and Hamura did not seal half the Jyuubi into himself, how come the Uzumaki had high life force? surely, having a huge life force possibly meant that the Jyuubi (or part of it) were sealed within him. Or did it come as a "perk" of knowing the sealing ability?
    Last edited by mbacarra; July 03, 2014 at 08:20 AM.

  8. #22
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Hamura and the Byakugan

    Quote Originally Posted by mbacarra View Post
    well, if Uzumaki was one of Hamura's children, technically they are still related to Ashura, still within the genes. It just so happened that Ashura "chose" an Uzumaki to be reborn into.

    ----------

    What if, the Uzumaki were one of Hamura's children, and in order to break the cycle of rebirth and suffering between the Uchiha and Senju, Ashura decided to be reborn into a different lineage, which is the Uzumaki? That the reason why this feud is still continuing until now is because of Hagoromo's doing, something like, Indra and Ashura are bound to be reborn until the rivalry is resolved.

    Or can Ashura really "choose" who he will be reborn into? Maybe Indra and Ashura are only bound to be reborn into Uchiha and Senju for eternity, until the rivalry issue is resolved. But if that is the case, how come Ashura was born in an Uzumaki? Could it be that Naruto is actually half Senju? (THanks Marshall313 for raising that idea). Think about it, the rivalry is between Senju and Uchiha alone, and yet, our main character is neither one. It seems that the rivalry is more like Uzumaki vs Uchiha and the senju has taken a back seat (i.e., Hashirama being the only legit tree-user, Tsunade being the "remaining" successor of the legit Senju tree-user).

    One could argue that, "well Uzumaki is probably just a Senju successor", which can be true as well, but the Uzumaki were known to be the clan who are adept with sealing, which is probably the least mentioned technique in the manga because it's a passive skill, and yet it is the ability used to defeat the biggest(?) villain which is Kaguya. It is also used in sealing the bijuu, which is a derivative of the jyuubi, which is related to Kaguya. Which means, the Uzumaki is of high importance and not just a "successor" of the Senju. If that were the case, then the Uzumaki could probably pass as the "third" child, but there were no indications at this point that Hagoromo has a third child.

    What I think is that, Hamura had 2 children, the elder Hyuuga and the younger Uzumaki (why I think Hyuuga is the elder? well probably because of the whole main and branch family thing). Unlike Hagoromo, Hamura, I assume, is a proud person (remember when Kaguya cried? Sasuke was the "image" for Hamura). And unlike Hagoromo, Hamura probably didn't have to choose his "real" successor, which makes me think, Hamura probably doesn't have half the Jyuubi--that's probably the reason why the Hyuuga only depends on taijutsu and not much on ninjutsu, and if you think about it clearly, their techniques are about "blocking" chakra, seems more like a "sealing" tech if you ask me. He then taught sealing tech to the Uzumaki as precautionary measures, because he probably understood the consequences of Hagoromo's actions.

    Well that's about it. My mind is racing after reading this thread. but it's a good discussion. I hope we get to see Hamura and know more about him and Kaguya in relation to Hagoromo's story.

    ---------- Post added at 09:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:14 PM ----------

    and then, I think about it, my theory has one slight flaw:

    if Uzumaki came from Hamura, and Hamura did not seal half the Jyuubi into himself, how come the Uzumaki had high life force? surely, having a huge life force possibly meant that the Jyuubi (or part of it) were sealed within him. Or did it come as a "perk" of knowing the sealing ability?
    I don't think ashura can choose to be reborn into an uzumaki. It would be as absurd as him choosing to be reborn an uchiha. Sure, they are related, but each of the 4 descendants so far seems to have gotten a extremely specific ability and absolutely nothing else. Which is why uchiha only have the sharingan, the senju only have ashura's chakra, the hyuga only have the byakugan and hypothetically the last descendant only has the chakra of the other brother.

    To add to that, ashura being reborn into a different clan would not really help him stop any cycles of hatred and whatnot. Why would it? The fighting started between senju and uchiha and whatnot, this would at worst involve a third party into the mix which is no way benefits peace. Unless they meant to stop the cycle via elimination of the uchiha which is kinda cheating.

    At the moment it is unquestionable manga fact that naruto descends from ashura, he needs the genes to be able to use his chakra and power. It is plausible there is something else going on here however the manga has not given yet so much as a shred of evidence to that.

    I don't think there is a half jubi situation here. However it does seem like kaguya and the jubi were originally one being so we can argue each is a half of the whole that is the jubi. Kaguya was sealed somewhere somehow in such a way that the infinite tsukioyomi allowed her to explode from within madara and the other half were the 9 biju that seem to be able to roam around freely.

  9. #23
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Notak's Avatar
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    Re: Hamura and the Byakugan

    I wonder what would happen if Uzumaki and Hyuuga chakra were to be combined. Would it bring forth Hamura's spirit or power? Just a thought

  10. #24
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Hamura and the Byakugan

    Well, it should be something new. Right now the most reasonable inference we can make is that uzumaki are descendants of ashura. In that specific scenario the combination would be of haguromo's body and hamura's eyes, a combination which is presumably different from what hamura himself used to be. Unless it turns out the chakra the two brothers had was the same except with different eyes but that in turn is the less interesting alternative.

    I wonder though, what is the color of hamura's hair? So far I have made the point that the uzumaki being descended from ashura is simply the most reasonable scenario however if hamura turns out to have red hair it would constitute the first evidence that naruto descends from hamura. Of course that will probably suggest there is some senju to minato (and god forbids a third rate non-rikudo descended human makes something out of himself).

  11. #25
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member mbacarra's Avatar
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    Re: Hamura and the Byakugan

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    To add to that, ashura being reborn into a different clan would not really help him stop any cycles of hatred and whatnot. Why would it? The fighting started between senju and uchiha and whatnot, this would at worst involve a third party into the mix which is no way benefits peace. Unless they meant to stop the cycle via elimination of the uchiha which is kinda cheating.
    ok maybe I was going a bit too far with the cycle of rebirth. As I mentioned earlier, the rebirth maybe just within the line of Ashura and Indra and their successors, it just so happens that an Uzumaki was the next reincarnation. There could be two things here:

    one is that, as you've said, the Uzumaki is a successor of Ashura, which means they are a successor of the Senju, that somewhere along the line, the Senju had produced two clans, and one of them is the Uzumaki. Although, it was stated by Kushina that the Uzumaki is a "distant" relative, if the translation literally meant this as a "nth degree cousin" then the senju might be not as close as the uzumaki, blood-wise speaking.

    The other one is that there is a possibility of Minato being of Senju descent, which makes Naruto half a Senju, thus, him being a "valid" reincarnation of Ashura, if we were to follow the whole rebirth thing being exclusive to the Senju and Uchiha alone. It is possible that Minato being present in front of Hagoromo, he might detect the Senju in him.

    --------

    What are the clues that we have so far?
    1. The Uzumaki is a distant relative of the Senju.
    2. The Uzumaki are a clan who is adept with sealing, a tech used to seal the Jyuubi and Kaguya
    3. The Uzumaki have a strong life force.
    4. The Uzumaki can handle the rinnegan.

    ---------- Post added at 07:33 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:32 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    I wonder though, what is the color of hamura's hair? So far I have made the point that the uzumaki being descended from ashura is simply the most reasonable scenario however if hamura turns out to have red hair it would constitute the first evidence that naruto descends from hamura. Of course that will probably suggest there is some senju to minato (and god forbids a third rate non-rikudo descended human makes something out of himself).
    Well, Hagoromo also has red hair, so the idea of the Uzumaki still being a part of the Senju is still up in the air.

    ---------- Post added at 07:40 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:33 AM ----------

    just a question though, when were Hagoromo and Hamura born? before or after Kaguya ate the fruit? I remember Black Zetsu stating that Kaguya did not eat the fruit, that she was the tree itself. correct me if I'm wrong though.

  12. #26
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    Re: Hamura and the Byakugan

    Quote Originally Posted by mbacarra View Post
    ok maybe I was going a bit too far with the cycle of rebirth. As I mentioned earlier, the rebirth maybe just within the line of Ashura and Indra and their successors, it just so happens that an Uzumaki was the next reincarnation. There could be two things here:

    one is that, as you've said, the Uzumaki is a successor of Ashura, which means they are a successor of the Senju, that somewhere along the line, the Senju had produced two clans, and one of them is the Uzumaki. Although, it was stated by Kushina that the Uzumaki is a "distant" relative, if the translation literally meant this as a "nth degree cousin" then the senju might be not as close as the uzumaki, blood-wise speaking.

    The other one is that there is a possibility of Minato being of Senju descent, which makes Naruto half a Senju, thus, him being a "valid" reincarnation of Ashura, if we were to follow the whole rebirth thing being exclusive to the Senju and Uchiha alone. It is possible that Minato being present in front of Hagoromo, he might detect the Senju in him.

    --------

    What are the clues that we have so far?
    1. The Uzumaki is a distant relative of the Senju.
    2. The Uzumaki are a clan who is adept with sealing, a tech used to seal the Jyuubi and Kaguya
    3. The Uzumaki have a strong life force.
    4. The Uzumaki can handle the rinnegan.

    ---------- Post added at 07:33 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:32 AM ----------



    Well, Hagoromo also has red hair, so the idea of the Uzumaki still being a part of the Senju is still up in the air.

    ---------- Post added at 07:40 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:33 AM ----------

    just a question though, when were Hagoromo and Hamura born? before or after Kaguya ate the fruit? I remember Black Zetsu stating that Kaguya did not eat the fruit, that she was the tree itself. correct me if I'm wrong though.
    Kaguya also has red hair.

    From what we can tell these are the clues/facts.

    1.Kaguya begot Romo & Mura

    2.Romo begot Uchiha and Senju.

    3. Hamura has Byukugan.

    4. Uzumaki are distant relatives to Senju.

    If this manga actually balances out then Hyuuga and Uzumaki will come from Hamura, And make a lot of sense too.

    In adition to the black zetsu claim it would make a lot of sense since the tree "called" out to madara to absorb it.
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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Notak's Avatar
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    Re: Hamura and the Byakugan

    If Naruto and Hinata have a child, that child might turn out very interesting. That would point at Sasuke having a child with a Senju woman, but I can't imagine who unless a new Senju girl gets introduced into the mix. Maybe Sakura will turn out to be of Senju descent as well? That'd be a retcon I know, but still.

    Or Karin could be a mix of Senju and Uzumaki.

    I do believe that Uzumaki are probably Hamura's version of the Senju.

    We have yet to see Hamura in this war, logically he should appear sooner or later but who knows.

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    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Hamura and the Byakugan

    Isn't hamura the black zetsu somehow? I get the impression he has hinted at that through the past chapters.

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    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted sarutobi_sensei's Avatar
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    Re: Hamura and the Byakugan

    Nah he's not, he's something else.

    Thinking logically and the duality of the clans, Hyuga and Uzumaki might've come from Hamura. The fact that it's said they are distant relatives is a point in that direction.

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    Re: Hamura and the Byakugan

    http://www.mangastream.to/naruto-cha...2-page-10.html
    I got confused with that page. In that one black zetsu says it was "us" that sealed her which kinda hints at him being hamura. However comparing it to a couple other translations it seems like it is MS that is inaccurate.

    I know about the duality however my point is more along the lines that it is an unquestionable fact that naruto is a descendant of ashura and so far it makes more sense that he gets that from his uzumaki side. There is no scenario where naruto can have ashura's power without him being his descendant. The implication would be that somehow naruto got the body and chakra of both sages...

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