Not a member? Register now!
Announcements
Like us on Facebook, follow us on Twitter! Celebrate another year with MH and read our yearbook.
Manga News: Check out this week's new manga (9/22/14 - 9/28/14).
Forum News: Visit new sections for Nisekoi and Kingdom!
Translations: One Piece 761 by cnet128 , Bleach 597 (2)
New Reply
Results 1 to 10 of 10

Thread: Possible Origins of the Shinigami - "M the Mirror" or "N the Negative"

  1. #1
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Lee.J.Baxter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Country
    United Kingdom
    Age
    29
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    569
    Post Thanks / Like

    Possible Origins of the Shinigami - "M the Mirror" or "N the Negative"

    Hi folks,

    I'm opening this thread to discuss yet another possibility of the origins of the Soul King and the Shinigami. This one's going by the fact that there are 3 Sternritter members that we haven't seen yet, and the currently unknown letters "M" and "N" (the other unknown epithets may fit this theory too, I just can't think of names that would fit); of course, this theory could be blown to bits once we've seen the 3 remaining members, but I thought I'd post it as a valid and possible theory. First of all, let me talk you through a couple of key points of the theory where I believe TK has deliberately (and cleverly) misleading us!!!

    Practically EVERYONE here is under the impression that Yhwach is relatively young when compared to the Soul King; the question is, why? Perhaps it's because he doesn't appear otherworldly, or maybe it's because of the people we saw gathered around him when he was a baby, but I'm not buying it whatsoever!!! Yhwach and the Soul King are polar opposites of each other at the molecular level, and opposite forces are usually born together; one doesn't exist without the other! We all know about the Sealed King's song of Quincy folklore, don't we? After 900 years he regains his pulse, after another 90 he would rega...wait...regain his pulse?!?!

    I remember watching a film a few years back called "Jeepers Creepers", which featured a monster that would feed off people to repair its damaged body parts...the thing is, you could literally take a shotgun and blow this thing to pieces (head included), and it would just enter a dormant state for a while before awakening and feeding again; I'm willing to bet that Yhwach has the same kind of ability, where he's technically immortal (and I don't mean "immortal" as in "he'll live unless you blow his head off"; I mean he's REALLY immortal), and he just goes into a dormant state if he suffers serious damage (again, including if his head's blown off).

    Now, if this wasn't creepy enough, I think there's something we weren't told about Yhwach's birth, and that is that he was born...well...medically dead; we were told he was born without the ability to see, hear, taste, smell, touch or move, but what we weren't told is that he couldn't think or breathe either, until a few thousand or so years later that is!

    Okay, so it's possible that Yhwach may have been alive a LOT longer than we thought, but how does that explain where the Soul King came from? Did he suddenly pop up out of thin air just because Yhwach was born? Well, in my past theories I didn't really speculate that far, but now I'm going to! First of all though, I'll need to offer my theory regarding how the 26 Epithets work...

    My theory is that every single Human soul in existence is born with a fragment of a particular type of power within them that determines subtle personality traits and strengths amongst other things; these powers are divided into 26 specific types, and are each given a letter that corresponds with that power. For example, one person's soul might contain a tiny fragment of power type "V" that makes them highly imaginative, whilst another might contain a tiny fragment of power type "S" that makes them achieve well when cheered on by others. Some of these powers are expressed very subtly, such as "E" giving an individual a volatile temper. From time to time, a soul is born with a slightly larger fragment of this power; an individual with a slightly larger fragment of type "P" may be able to perform unusual feats of strength, whereas an individual with a slightly larger fragment of type "H" might be able to set flammable objects on fire if they really focus (of course, this would be dismissed as a magic trick by anybody witnessing this).

    Now, Yhwach, like everyone else, was born with a fragment of power; his was type "A". The only thing is Yhwach's fragment was not only slightly bigger than usual, it was abnormally bigger, thus it manifested at a much higher level. This power gave Yhwach his initial ability to pass on parts of his soul to others and in doing so eventually gain their knowledge and abilities...including their fragment of power. As time went by, Yhwach's "A" allowed him to accumulate the fragments taken from others, allowing him to manifest those powers at a high level too! Also, due to his ability to distribute his soul to others, he could hand off the powers to others with the same type of fragment; in other words, he could turn the little magic tricks of someone with "H" into the powers that Bazz-B has now!

    Okay, enough beating around the bush; now one of the sets of powers (probably given the letter "M" or "N") allows an individual to be a mirror image or negative of another. One day a certain snotty-nosed little brat with a tendency to act and do differently from everyone else (it's not really his fault, it's just the "M" or "N" that he was born with) went to the vegetable baby Yhwach for some miracle healing, and got more than just a miracle! Somehow, that individual managed to receive not only part of Yhwach's soul, but a large chunk of his power type; this in turn turned the insignificant little rebel into something the polar opposite of the baby he just touched...Sternritter "M the Mirror" (or "N the Negative"), or as we refer to him, the Soul King!!!
    Predictions
    • Just as Quincies are evolved beings born from Humans, Shinigami are evolved beings born from Hollows.
    • Once Yhwach dies, Ichigo's Quincy powers will disappear and his soul will become unstable, causing the onset of Soul Suicide.
    • Yhwach isn't going to be the final antagonist.

  2. Thanks 1 Member(s) thanked this post
  3. #2
    MangaHelper 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Impossibility's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Wonderland 8
    Country
    Bahamas
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    2,939
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Possible Origins of the Shinigami - "M the Mirror" or "N the Negative"

    The entirety of this theory relies on Yhwach's origin story being heavily edited. How one extrapolates a lack of senses to being dead thousands of years prior to his own consciousness is mystifying? And why that would even enter the equation is beyond me because it doesn't have any real bearing on your actual theory. That is way beyond any logical leap. The reason the Soul King has been presumed to be significantly older than Yhwach is that the Shinigami are suggested to be older, being present, in one form or another, for his arrival and the origin of the Quincy. Another problem with your theory is the events that would supposedly follow Yhwach having his power taken by the Soul King, exactly how does that lead to the formation of Seretei, thousands of years of history, the Soul King's pre-eminent significance to Soul Society, and Yhwach's defeat to Yamamoto. This isn't to say that the matter of the Soul King is settled, but there are certain things that cannot be ignored about it. The main problem is that this theory doesn't have any links to the manga, there isn't anything to subtly suggest such a thing, or even vaguely support something in this ballpark. A theory has to be based on something from the source, but this requires significant changes to the source to look substantive, and then leads to even further questions that are possibly even more difficult to address than the ones already before us.

  4. Like 1 Member(s) likes this post
  5. #3
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Lee.J.Baxter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Country
    United Kingdom
    Age
    29
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    569
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Possible Origins of the Shinigami - "M the Mirror" or "N the Negative"

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    The entirety of this theory relies on Yhwach's origin story being heavily edited. How one extrapolates a lack of senses to being dead thousands of years prior to his own consciousness is mystifying? And why that would even enter the equation is beyond me because it doesn't have any real bearing on your actual theory. That is way beyond any logical leap. The reason the Soul King has been presumed to be significantly older than Yhwach is that the Shinigami are suggested to be older, being present, in one form or another, for his arrival and the origin of the Quincy. Another problem with your theory is the events that would supposedly follow Yhwach having his power taken by the Soul King, exactly how does that lead to the formation of Seretei, thousands of years of history, the Soul King's pre-eminent significance to Soul Society, and Yhwach's defeat to Yamamoto. This isn't to say that the matter of the Soul King is settled, but there are certain things that cannot be ignored about it. The main problem is that this theory doesn't have any links to the manga, there isn't anything to subtly suggest such a thing, or even vaguely support something in this ballpark. A theory has to be based on something from the source, but this requires significant changes to the source to look substantive, and then leads to even further questions that are possibly even more difficult to address than the ones already before us.
    I agree that my theory is a shot in the dark bordering on fanfic, but I wouldn't say it makes Yhwach's story heavily edited; it just adds to his story really. Haschwalth explained himself that Yhwach himself didn't fully know his origins, which kinda leaves a big gap regarding the circumstances of his birth.

    The whole thing with the Soul King, according to my theory, is that he was turned into an opposite equivalent to Yhwach; he's like the other side of the chess board. He rose to power and created the Shinigami army whilst Yhwach was still a vegetable, or even a conscious baby, so by the time Yhwach grew up and grew strong enough to fight the Soul King and the Shinigami were already well-established.

    Before the Soul King took his Sternritter powers from Yhwach, Yhwach was basically destined to rule, which would explain his motives and how the Quincy song says that he's going to RECLAIM the world. I seriously doubt he took the world at any point if he was born after the Soul King, but it would make sense if he was a king-to-be before the Soul King came into existence.

    Aizen has stated that he refuses to live in a world ruled by the Soul King; this could be due to the Soul King basically being a sort of Quincy (I say sort-of because his Sternritter powers turned him into the opposite; a mindf**k, I know).
    Predictions
    • Just as Quincies are evolved beings born from Humans, Shinigami are evolved beings born from Hollows.
    • Once Yhwach dies, Ichigo's Quincy powers will disappear and his soul will become unstable, causing the onset of Soul Suicide.
    • Yhwach isn't going to be the final antagonist.

  6. #4
    MangaHelper 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Impossibility's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Wonderland 8
    Country
    Bahamas
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    2,939
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Possible Origins of the Shinigami - "M the Mirror" or "N the Negative"

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee.J.Baxter View Post
    The whole thing with the Soul King, according to my theory, is that he was turned into an opposite equivalent to Yhwach; he's like the other side of the chess board. He rose to power and created the Shinigami army whilst Yhwach was still a vegetable, or even a conscious baby, so by the time Yhwach grew up and grew strong enough to fight the Soul King and the Shinigami were already well-established.
    The problem is that there isn't anything to suggest Yhwach was a 'vegetable'. And even if he were, how would he have given his power before anyone was aware of it. And did it somehow take Yhwach thousands of years to grow up because that's the lead the Soul King certainly had, at the very least. Leap after leap after leap.

    Quote Quote:
    Before the Soul King took his Sternritter powers from Yhwach, Yhwach was basically destined to rule, which would explain his motives and how the Quincy song says that he's going to RECLAIM the world. I seriously doubt he took the world at any point if he was born after the Soul King, but it would make sense if he was a king-to-be before the Soul King came into existence.
    Rule what world? Everything suggests that SS, and the Soul King's rule, predates Yhwach. Any number of things could explain Yhwach's motivation; arrogance, greed, revenge. Each more logical than this alternative.

    Quote Quote:
    Aizen has stated that he refuses to live in a world ruled by the Soul King; this could be due to the Soul King basically being a sort of Quincy (I say sort-of because his Sternritter powers turned him into the opposite; a mindf**k, I know).
    Or it could just be Aizen being Aizen, he wasn't particularly enamoured with Shinigami or Hollow. He was an egomaniac, he would plot to remove anyone that ruled beyond him.


    You've to keep in mind that this isn't ancient history that we're talking about, at least not in the scope of the manga. Yhwach was defeated a thousand years ago, and a thousand years before that Yamamoto had already formed the academy. When Yhwach last took on SS quite a few individuals were roaming around that remain standing today. There isn't that much mystery. Yhwach is a man, an unreasonably powerful man, but a man nonetheless. And long before he decided to enter the fray, the Soul King was likely eerie, strange, and being his transcendental self and whatever that entails.

  7. #5
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Lee.J.Baxter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Country
    United Kingdom
    Age
    29
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    569
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Possible Origins of the Shinigami - "M the Mirror" or "N the Negative"

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    The problem is that there isn't anything to suggest Yhwach was a 'vegetable'. And even if he were, how would he have given his power before anyone was aware of it. And did it somehow take Yhwach thousands of years to grow up because that's the lead the Soul King certainly had, at the very least. Leap after leap after leap.



    Rule what world? Everything suggests that SS, and the Soul King's rule, predates Yhwach. Any number of things could explain Yhwach's motivation; arrogance, greed, revenge. Each more logical than this alternative.



    Or it could just be Aizen being Aizen, he wasn't particularly enamoured with Shinigami or Hollow. He was an egomaniac, he would plot to remove anyone that ruled beyond him.


    You've to keep in mind that this isn't ancient history that we're talking about, at least not in the scope of the manga. Yhwach was defeated a thousand years ago, and a thousand years before that Yamamoto had already formed the academy. When Yhwach last took on SS quite a few individuals were roaming around that remain standing today. There isn't that much mystery. Yhwach is a man, an unreasonably powerful man, but a man nonetheless. And long before he decided to enter the fray, the Soul King was likely eerie, strange, and being his transcendental self and whatever that entails.
    That's the thing though; if the Soul King's rule predates Yhwach's, then how come the Quincy folklore song says how Yhwach will REGAIN the world in 9 days, as opposed to GAIN it. The song is essentially stating that Yhwach ruled the world before, then the Soul King came along and took it away from him, and now Yhwach is going to claim it back again.
    Predictions
    • Just as Quincies are evolved beings born from Humans, Shinigami are evolved beings born from Hollows.
    • Once Yhwach dies, Ichigo's Quincy powers will disappear and his soul will become unstable, causing the onset of Soul Suicide.
    • Yhwach isn't going to be the final antagonist.

  8. #6
    MangaHelper 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Impossibility's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Wonderland 8
    Country
    Bahamas
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    2,939
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Possible Origins of the Shinigami - "M the Mirror" or "N the Negative"

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee.J.Baxter View Post
    That's the thing though; if the Soul King's rule predates Yhwach's, then how come the Quincy folklore song says how Yhwach will REGAIN the world in 9 days, as opposed to GAIN it. The song is essentially stating that Yhwach ruled the world before, then the Soul King came along and took it away from him, and now Yhwach is going to claim it back again.
    Any number of reasons. It refers to another world entirely, or simply is suggesting something else beyond the obvious. Yhwach might've managed to take some control at some point, thus the reason for his battle with Yamamoto a thousand years. Or the song could just be propaganda to feed into Yhwach's ego, who knows where it comes from. These possibilities are likelier than this.

  9. #7
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    wherever cookies can't get to me...(as if such a place existed...)
    Country
    Galactic Empire
    Posts
    18,849
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Possible Origins of the Shinigami - "M the Mirror" or "N the Negative"

    Setting aside that the theory gets into the "weirdly specific" territory more than even a crackpot theory ever should, my biggest issue here is the whole thing about the letters. People being born with letters is just about contradictory with the manga as far as I can tell. Some quincy are born with special abilities that might be similar to the shinigami situation, we know of cases of people who have zampakuto before getting an asauchi (ichigo, hitsugaya...) while the rest of quincy need help bringing out their abilities (which would be consistent with juhabach also bestowing abilities on people). Letters as far as we know are a mechanism which juhabach implemented to make stronger bonds with people. Letters themselves come from juhabach, letters are a fraction of juhabach's soul. I can buy that personalities are related to the abilities of people (to some extent kubo has made an effort for that) however there being exactly 26 types of powers is just weird. After a point I would think many things just fall into the same area....

  10. #8
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Lee.J.Baxter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Country
    United Kingdom
    Age
    29
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    569
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Possible Origins of the Shinigami - "M the Mirror" or "N the Negative"

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Setting aside that the theory gets into the "weirdly specific" territory more than even a crackpot theory ever should, my biggest issue here is the whole thing about the letters. People being born with letters is just about contradictory with the manga as far as I can tell. Some quincy are born with special abilities that might be similar to the shinigami situation, we know of cases of people who have zampakuto before getting an asauchi (ichigo, hitsugaya...) while the rest of quincy need help bringing out their abilities (which would be consistent with juhabach also bestowing abilities on people). Letters as far as we know are a mechanism which juhabach implemented to make stronger bonds with people. Letters themselves come from juhabach, letters are a fraction of juhabach's soul. I can buy that personalities are related to the abilities of people (to some extent kubo has made an effort for that) however there being exactly 26 types of powers is just weird. After a point I would think many things just fall into the same area....
    My theory of the letters relates to the Sternritter having certain personality types or abilities when they were still human that perfectly tie in with their powers; As Nodt is a prime example of this. I know it seems weird breaking them into 26 categories, and weirder still that each of those categories just happen to have a unique letter of the alphabet, but the Espada have a similar thing going where each one represents one of the 10 aspects of death.
    Predictions
    • Just as Quincies are evolved beings born from Humans, Shinigami are evolved beings born from Hollows.
    • Once Yhwach dies, Ichigo's Quincy powers will disappear and his soul will become unstable, causing the onset of Soul Suicide.
    • Yhwach isn't going to be the final antagonist.

  11. #9
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member devstauk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Deadman Wonderland
    Country
    United Kingdom
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    735
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Possible Origins of the Shinigami - "M the Mirror" or "N the Negative"

    Spoiler show


    Thought i'd add this, i don't necessarily think the SR really do have ties with the emotion or feeling they were experiencing. But there is always that possibility that it could be the case.
    Spoiler show

  12. #10
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    wherever cookies can't get to me...(as if such a place existed...)
    Country
    Galactic Empire
    Posts
    18,849
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Possible Origins of the Shinigami - "M the Mirror" or "N the Negative"

    It would be too much like a zodiac thing IMO. I don't think it necessarily applies to all stern riter either. I mean, gigi is zombie but she is hardly a dead eyed brain eater. Ok, that might be an exaggerated example.... But what about kirge, cang du and meninas? They hardly seem to have personalities inspired on their abilities.Catnice and thunderbold would be a stretch too. There are several that could be made to fit but its not like they couldn't be made to fit other stuff either.

New Reply

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts