Not a member? Register now!
Announcements
Manga returns! Catch up with the details. Enjoy downloading, translating, and scanlating manga HERE legally!
Like us on Facebook, follow us on Twitter! Celebrate another year with MH and read our yearbook.
Manga News: Check out this week's new manga (9/8/14 - 9/14/14).
Forum News: Visit new sections for Nisekoi and Kingdom!
Translations: Bleach 595 (2)

View Poll Results: Second Hokage VS Third Raikage

Voters
4. You may not vote on this poll
  • 1st Scenario Tobirma wins!

    1 25.00%
  • 1st Scenario Riakge wins!

    1 25.00%
  • 2nd Scenario Tobirama wins!

    2 50.00%
  • 2nd Scenario Raikage wins!

    0 0%
New Reply
Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst ... 2 3 4
Results 46 to 56 of 56

Thread: Second Hokage VS Third Raikage!!

  1. #46
    MangaHelper 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Impossibility's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Wonderland 8
    Country
    Bahamas
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    2,810
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Second Hokage VS Third Raikage!!

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    How do we know that the Kinkaku Force was affiliated with Kinkaku of the Gold and Silver Brothers? I thought that as well, but there was no mention of either brother.

    It might not be odd, as Kumo was known for trying to gather more power.
    We haven't been told explicitly that the Kinkaku Force was affiliated with Kinkaku, but it seems likely considering the infamy of Kinkaku and his brother. It would be strange for us to be provided with that name and have the group unconnected to its namesake, at least in the context of the manga. And Kumo might've been attempting to gather power, but with their relatively recent attempt on the Raikage and the reactions of Kumo's shinobi to their return during the war, I don't think we could expect Kumo to do anything other than attempt to execute them upon sight.

  2. #47
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Country
    Vatican City State
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    32,805
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Second Hokage VS Third Raikage!!

    Quote Originally Posted by KiSwordsman View Post
    It's hard not to connect the dots with the affiliation. There's no mention of a different kinkaku Who is a ninja of the cloud within the story. This isn't like the "possible" perfect hosts that could have existed before the ones mentioned within the story. I Get trying to take unknowns into account but it's a little difficult when names are dropped.
    But it is kind of weird when Kinkaku and Ginkaku were considered criminals and likely traitors for killing the Second Raikage. Why does Kinkaku Squad need to be named after Kinkaku or someone?

    Quote Quote:
    There's no precedent for the third bragging about himself. Naruto had to learn about it from someone else That was Close to the character. There Is also evidence against tobirama being aware given the fact that he was killed by the kinkaku force. This happened presumably after the coup attempt by the brothers. At which point, the second raikage was still a thing.

    Even if we say that the two times are completely separate from one another, it still amounts to guesswork on tobirama's behalf.
    Thte Third couldn't brag or talk for himself anyway, he was under Kabuto's control.

    What do you mean by still a thing?
    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    We haven't been told explicitly that the Kinkaku Force was affiliated with Kinkaku, but it seems likely considering the infamy of Kinkaku and his brother. It would be strange for us to be provided with that name and have the group unconnected to its namesake, at least in the context of the manga. And Kumo might've been attempting to gather power, but with their relatively recent attempt on the Raikage and the reactions of Kumo's shinobi to their return during the war, I don't think we could expect Kumo to do anything other than attempt to execute them upon sight.
    We haven't been told that at all, it seems it's an assumption based on the name.

  3. #48
    MangaHelper 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Impossibility's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Wonderland 8
    Country
    Bahamas
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    2,810
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Second Hokage VS Third Raikage!!

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    We haven't been told that at all, it seems it's an assumption based on the name.
    It is, but it is a completely logical one. Is there any other reason why we'd have mention of a group named after an infamous criminal that was active within Kumo around the same time of the battle?

  4. #49
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity KiSwordsman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Country
    United States
    Age
    25
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    2,801
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Second Hokage VS Third Raikage!!

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    But it is kind of weird when Kinkaku and Ginkaku were considered criminals and likely traitors for killing the Second Raikage. Why does Kinkaku Squad need to be named after Kinkaku or someone?


    Thte Third couldn't brag or talk for himself anyway, he was under Kabuto's control.

    What do you mean by still a thing?


    We haven't been told that at all, it seems it's an assumption based on the name.
    The Same reason that the seven swordsmen of the mist was named because it contained seven swordsman with special swords. Plus if the coup had just happened the squad would still be named after the brothers. Even still, the Manga says that the brothers were held in high esteem even after their betrayal. And it's not like they would have been inactive kumo ninja right after the event. I mean that the second Raikage was still around at the time.

    Yes, but that still amounts to there being no precedent of the third bragging about himself. So the notion that he would is still an assumption with no basis.

    Context clues; if it has his name and he's the only one in the series that we've been told about, I think we can conclude that for ourselves. And wouldn't an assumption based on the name be better than an assumption based on nothing at all? Like the third Raikage being affiliated with the group for whatever reason?
    Last edited by KiSwordsman; July 20, 2014 at 11:13 AM.

  5. #50
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Country
    Vatican City State
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    32,805
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Second Hokage VS Third Raikage!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    It is, but it is a completely logical one. Is there any other reason why we'd have mention of a group named after an infamous criminal that was active within Kumo around the same time of the battle?
    What does the name mean? Gold something? Silver something? You'd think Kinkaku would brag about killing the Second Hokage when he was revived, but noooo. It was about how he and his brother killed the Second Raikage and nearly killed the Second Hokage.
    Quote Originally Posted by KiSwordsman View Post
    The Same reason that the seven swordsmen of the mist was named because it contained seven swordsman with special swords. Plus if the coup had just happened the squad would still be named after the brothers. Even still, the Manga says that the brothers were held in high esteem even after their betrayal. And it's not like they would have been inactive kumo ninja right after the event. I mean that the second Raikage was still around at the time.
    The manga is confusing because Darui spoke to them with respect at first, then he stated they were disgusting criminals.

    What time?

    Quote Quote:
    Yes, but that still amounts to there being no precedent of the third bragging about himself. So the notion that he would is still an assumption with no basis.

    Context clues; if it has his name and he's the only one in the series that we've been told about, I think we can conclude that for ourselves. And wouldn't an assumption based on the name be better than an assumption based on nothing at all? Like the third Raikage being affiliated with the group for whatever reason?
    He would not brag, but he might just mention or talk about that, probably as a warning. If he doesn't though, then Tobirama will have more difficulties.

    But there's no mention of that. Weren't the Kinkaku force members responsible for killing Tobirama? Yet no mention at all?

  6. #51
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity KiSwordsman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Country
    United States
    Age
    25
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    2,801
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Second Hokage VS Third Raikage!!

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    What does the name mean? Gold something? Silver something? You'd think Kinkaku would brag about killing the Second Hokage when he was revived, but noooo. It was about how he and his brother killed the Second Raikage and nearly killed the Second Hokage.

    The manga is confusing because Darui spoke to them with respect at first, then he stated they were disgusting criminals.

    What time?



    He would not brag, but he might just mention or talk about that, probably as a warning. If he doesn't though, then Tobirama will have more difficulties.

    But there's no mention of that. Weren't the Kinkaku force members responsible for killing Tobirama? Yet no mention at all?
    There is this. That may not be bragging but that's an indication that given the fact that they are from his time, they know he's dead. I'm also not sure where they said that they killed the second Raikage. The situation with the second from both the cloud and leaf was brought up by sources other than them.

    Are you trying to find out the meaning of the names so that you can use that as a way to say that the brothers weren't affiliated, it was just the name of the group?

    Like I said, they were still respected despite the fact that they were criminals, it doesn't change the fact that they were criminals. The very chapter before that we had random ninja #675 referring to them with the honorific "Sama." The time of the coup.

    Why would one warn a person that they are trying to kill? Doesn't really make much sense. I wouldn't say no mention at all, refer to that link.

    Edit: Once again, context clues. And just so it's not said that Kabuto informed all of his dead puppets that the second was gone, that's not the case. From that, we know that there were some from his era that believed him to still be alive. Until they were informed otherwise, that is. So for the brothers to be aware that he was dead.... You see where I'm going with this.
    Last edited by KiSwordsman; July 20, 2014 at 09:45 PM.

  7. #52
    MangaHelper 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Impossibility's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Wonderland 8
    Country
    Bahamas
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    2,810
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Second Hokage VS Third Raikage!!

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    What does the name mean? Gold something? Silver something? You'd think Kinkaku would brag about killing the Second Hokage when he was revived, but noooo. It was about how he and his brother killed the Second Raikage and nearly killed the Second Hokage.
    The story of their attack on the meeting of the Nidaimes was told by A, in the context of their criminal legacy. Does any of that change that the force that took down Tobirama shared its name with Kinkaku? And it isn't just the name. The fact that Kumo and Konoha were seen to have come to peace prior to this battle would suggest that any Kumo shinobi hunting Tobirama would be rebels or criminals. So we have a group, likely operating outside Kumo's command structure, from Kumo that shares the same name with an infamous Kumo criminal that only shortly prior attempted to stage a coup. This would seem to be more than just suggestive.

  8. #53
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Country
    Vatican City State
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    32,805
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Second Hokage VS Third Raikage!!

    Quote Originally Posted by KiSwordsman View Post
    There is this. That may not be bragging but that's an indication that given the fact that they are from his time, they know he's dead. I'm also not sure where they said that they killed the second Raikage. The situation with the second from both the cloud and leaf was brought up by sources other than them.
    Don't they know they were brought back decades later? Or am I confused with other Edo Tensei? Work computer is slow so I can't verify even though you've provided the link. If they do know, then it would make sense they'd think Tobirama was dead, as very few can live for that long. If they did play a part in killing Tobirama, why not brag? Why not say "we're so strong we killed the Second Hokage!" or "the squad I trained was able to take out the Second Hokage!" What they said could mean different things, like the brothers living long enough to know that Tobirama died before them.

    I think it was Ae who said the brothers killed the Second Raikage and brought Tobirama to the brink of death? Interestingly, if this was before Tobirama's death, why would Kumo keep the name of Kinkaku when its namesake betrayed the village?

    Quote Quote:
    Are you trying to find out the meaning of the names so that you can use that as a way to say that the brothers weren't affiliated, it was just the name of the group?
    Yes and no. It's to say that there's a possibility there was no affiliation, that it could mean the squad was considered the best among the best in Kumo, similar to the ANBU.

    Quote Quote:
    Like I said, they were still respected despite the fact that they were criminals, it doesn't change the fact that they were criminals. The very chapter before that we had random ninja #675 referring to them with the honorific "Sama." The time of the coup.
    Darui did praise them, but as the fight went on he started to disrespect them and if I recall correctly, said they were nothing but shameful criminals.

    Quote Quote:
    Why would one warn a person that they are trying to kill? Doesn't really make much sense. I wouldn't say no mention at all, refer to that link.
    Dunno, maybe the Third Raikage enjoys a great fight? Maybe it could be him bragging a bit? Trashtalking? Given Tobirama's intellect and great observation ability though, there's a chance he can deduce what could hurt or might have hurt the Raikage just from seeing his ultimate jutsu.

    Quote Quote:
    Edit: Once again, context clues. And just so it's not said that Kabuto informed all of his dead puppets that the second was gone, that's not the case. From that, we know that there were some from his era that believed him to still be alive. Until they were informed otherwise, that is. So for the brothers to be aware that he was dead.... You see where I'm going with this.
    What about them knowing the era they were revived in? I dunno about the brothers, but I remember Gaara's dad telling the Edo kage that they were revived decades after their time. There can be different ways for the brothers to be aware Tobirama was dead, though. Hiruzen knew Madara was dead, but does that mean he played a part in Madara's death? Zetsu saw and recorded the fight between Itachi and Sasuke, and Itachi's death... does that mean he killed Itachi?

    Of course, I'm not saying Kinkaku had nothing to do with the squad or the death of Tobirama. There's more indication to both than there is against.
    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    The story of their attack on the meeting of the Nidaimes was told by A, in the context of their criminal legacy. Does any of that change that the force that took down Tobirama shared its name with Kinkaku? And it isn't just the name. The fact that Kumo and Konoha were seen to have come to peace prior to this battle would suggest that any Kumo shinobi hunting Tobirama would be rebels or criminals. So we have a group, likely operating outside Kumo's command structure, from Kumo that shares the same name with an infamous Kumo criminal that only shortly prior attempted to stage a coup. This would seem to be more than just suggestive.
    Hmm, didn't think of it like that.



    Anyway, does Tobirama have an attack that could make the Raikage stab himself? Naruto needed teh rasengan and Sage Mode strength, apparently. I assume he probably does, given how he was breaking teh wall trying to get out to fight Madara.

  9. #54
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity KiSwordsman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Country
    United States
    Age
    25
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    2,801
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Second Hokage VS Third Raikage!!

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    Don't they know they were brought back decades later? Or am I confused with other Edo Tensei? Work computer is slow so I can't verify even though you've provided the link. If they do know, then it would make sense they'd think Tobirama was dead, as very few can live for that long. If they did play a part in killing Tobirama, why not brag? Why not say "we're so strong we killed the Second Hokage!" or "the squad I trained was able to take out the Second Hokage!" What they said could mean different things, like the brothers living long enough to know that Tobirama died before them.
    Honestly, I think you're reaching for way too many unknowns here. No, they weren't aware until they saw their predecessors and Loved ones facing them. Zabuza was revived saying that the last thing he remembered was being on the bridge. Muu believed the second was around somewhere, and the fourth kazekage dying in the era that he did, would have already known that tobirama bit the dust long ago. During the early part of the war, the zombies were revived knowing the information they did when they passed.


    Quote Quote:
    I think it was Ae who said the brothers killed the Second Raikage and brought Tobirama to the brink of death? Interestingly, if this was before Tobirama's death, why would Kumo keep the name of Kinkaku when its namesake betrayed the village?
    That was not said, Ēi mentioned the ambush, and Tsunade mentioned that her uncle was brought near death.

    Quote Quote:
    Yes and no. It's to say that there's a possibility there was no affiliation, that it could mean the squad was considered the best among the best in Kumo, similar to the ANBU.
    And honestly dude, that's reaching. I mean what, 10 years later manga time there's a team named Naruto and we'll say their named that because they all happen to like fishcake ramen. Come on now.

    Quote Quote:
    Darui did praise them, but as the fight went on he started to disrespect them and if I recall correctly, said they were nothing but shameful criminals.
    Okay how does that change things? We both know what the manga said about that.

    Quote Quote:
    Dunno, maybe the Third Raikage enjoys a great fight? Maybe it could be him bragging a bit? Trashtalking? Given Tobirama's intellect and great observation ability though, there's a chance he can deduce what could hurt or might have hurt the Raikage just from seeing his ultimate jutsu.
    And that's pure speculation. What we know as fact is there's no precedent for the third to talk about himself bragging or otherwise. So to say that it would happen for reasons is not enough. And it's guesswork to think that tobirama could come to any type of conclusion without key pieces of information that he would not have.

    It's the same thing as saying itachi could still beat Sasuke because... smart.

    Quote Quote:
    What about them knowing the era they were revived in? I dunno about the brothers, but I remember Gaara's dad telling the Edo kage that they were revived decades after their time. There can be different ways for the brothers to be aware Tobirama was dead, though. Hiruzen knew Madara was dead, but does that mean he played a part in Madara's death? Zetsu saw and recorded the fight between Itachi and Sasuke, and Itachi's death... does that mean he killed Itachi?

    Of course, I'm not saying Kinkaku had nothing to do with the squad or the death of Tobirama. There's more indication to both than there is against.
    Just like with all the other zombies, they would be revived knowing the information that they did when they died. Yes, because his father died in an era where tobirama was long gone. Same goes for hiruzen, he died way after madara. And we know what zetsu was doing at the time of itachi's death. While I do appreciate taking the unknowns into account some of the time, it does not work all the time. I could say that killer bee had diarrhea that entire time he was offscreen. Simply based on the fact that we had no idea what was going on or what he was doing. There are a lot of unknowns that one can account for, but in discussions like these it just amounts to pure speculation that's why we have to use the clues given to us to determine what happened.

    Quote Quote:
    Anyway, does Tobirama have an attack that could make the Raikage stab himself? Naruto needed teh rasengan and Sage Mode strength, apparently. I assume he probably does, given how he was breaking teh wall trying to get out to fight Madara.
    Kakashi has "1000" techniques. Do we know every single one of them? No we don't. Point, we can't guess that tobirama has something that he has not shown.
    Last edited by KiSwordsman; July 21, 2014 at 08:55 PM.

  10. #55
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Country
    Vatican City State
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    32,805
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Second Hokage VS Third Raikage!!

    Quote Originally Posted by KiSwordsman View Post
    Honestly, I think you're reaching for way too many unknowns here. No, they weren't aware until they saw their predecessors and Loved ones facing them. Zabuza was revived saying that the last thing he remembered was being on the bridge. Muu believed the second was around somewhere, and the fourth kazekage dying in the era that he did, would have already known that tobirama bit the dust long ago. During the early part of the war, the zombies were revived knowing the information they did when they passed.
    That's what I meant by knowin though, bein told or figuring out that they were revived waaaay later as the kage were told by the Fourth Kazekage. Like, some were told information off panel or something.


    Quote Quote:
    And honestly dude, that's reaching. I mean what, 10 years later manga time there's a team named Naruto and we'll say their named that because they all happen to like fishcake ramen. Come on now.
    Well, we know Naruto would have something to do with the team as squads in Konoha are generally named either after the sensei or a number. Kumo could be run differently.


    Quote Quote:
    And that's pure speculation. What we know as fact is there's no precedent for the third to talk about himself bragging or otherwise. So to say that it would happen for reasons is not enough. And it's guesswork to think that tobirama could come to any type of conclusion without key pieces of information that he would not have.

    It's the same thing as saying itachi could still beat Sasuke because... smart.
    So it's not possible for Tobirama to wonder if the Raikage's own jutsu injured him if the Raikage managed to stab through anything that should have been difficult or impossible to stab through?




    Quote Quote:
    Kakashi has "1000" techniques. Do we know every single one of them? No we don't. Point, we can't guess that tobirama has something that he has not shown.
    ????????

  11. #56
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity KiSwordsman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Country
    United States
    Age
    25
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    2,801
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Second Hokage VS Third Raikage!!

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    That's what I meant by knowin though, bein told or figuring out that they were revived waaaay later as the kage were told by the Fourth Kazekage. Like, some were told information off panel or something.

    Well, we know Naruto would have something to do with the team as squads in Konoha are generally named either after the sensei or a number. Kumo could be run differently.
    And that's what I'm talking about when I said reaching for too many unknowns. Its simply guessing to say that someone told them off panel. Given how we've already seen how they react when they are revived, it leans more to them coming back aware of the information they had when they died. We see no form of interaction with them and other zombies.

    Yes, that's the point we know how this works already. Why go out of our way to think things are different at least in that regard when it comes to other villages? That's too much assuming. It just comes across like reaching to get a point.


    Quote Quote:
    So it's not possible for Tobirama to wonder if the Raikage's own jutsu injured him if the Raikage managed to stab through anything that should have been difficult or impossible to stab through?
    I've already made my stance on how far Tobirama would actually get within the fight. However, the initial argument was the Raikage talking. Assuming that he would offhandedly mentioned anything about his technique is just that an assumption. Even the moniker itself.

    The fact of the matter is without key bits of information one could conclude a variety of ways that the Raikage could have come to obtain that scar. As much as you like to reach for unknowns, it wouldn't even necessarily have to be a battle scar. For all Tobirama knows he could've obtained it outside of battle. If, he was aware of the third moniker that would be one thing. However, given his time of death I doubt that to be the case.

    And like I've already stated, even if we were to say that the events were not connected, that still guesswork on Tobirama's behalf.

    Quote Quote:

    Not really seeing the point. Is that a technique of some sort, did he give it a name? That was the whole point of the Kakashi analogy. Just because the guys shown that he can push things really hard does not mean that he has a technique strong enough to replicate what Naruto did. Can you name the technique that he apparently has? See the more we talk about this, the more guesswork is presented.

    Keep in mind, Naruto did what he did while in Sage mode. Something that allowed him to chuck a gigantic rhinoceros. Something that's supposed to empower all of his techniques only managed to push the guys arm and not blow it off completely.
    Last edited by KiSwordsman; July 22, 2014 at 03:46 AM.

New Reply
Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst ... 2 3 4

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts