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Nah. Not every Uchiha is an Indra incarnation. You can't expect someone ele to have power like Madara's aside from Sasuke. They may match some of the weaker Bijuu, but not full strength Kurama.Originally Posted by narutotheory
He ripped up trees. Those trees lack the durability of full actual mountain ranges. And you're still showing me feats of Bijuu who are making contacts with their targets. Madara doesn't even have to touch something with his Susanoo to render it little more than a pile of dust. If you can show Gyuki turning an entire forest into rubble by simply sneezing on it you'd have a point.Originally Posted by Kay3795
But you can't.
Lol, what feats? I'm not talking about hearsay, I'm talking about what we've actually seen full power Kurama do. Infact, we saw full power Kurama have his had smashed by a giant toad. Reaaaal strong.Quote:
I'm not concerned with charge time. I'm concerned with the sheer colossal gap in destructive power. There is no bijuu with power on the scale of Final Susanoo. Madara's, or Sasuke's.
Well, except the Juubi, but that's a different story. And your manga scans aren't helping you because you've somehow managed to convince yourself that a Bijuudama could harm Madara's Final Susanoo, despite the fact that one couldn't even break one of his Complete Susanoo's swords (a level BELOW final and thus considerably weaker).
See that? The world's strongest Bijuu next to the Juubi, is weaker than Madara's SECOND STRONGEST Susanoo form! There's an absolutely horrible misrepresentation of Bijuu power in this thread.
EDIT: As for his swords not being as powerful because he only cut through the mountains rather than touching them, that's irrelevant. Swords aren't built for blowing things to pieces, they're built for cutting things. If his Susanoo had the power to fire a bijuu-dama like attack you can rest easy knowing it would do far, far FAR more damage than any Bijuudama short of the Juubi's.
Last edited by ninjabot; July 14, 2014 at 10:28 PM.
The only thing shown is that, the sage separated the 10 tailed into 9 parts and.......... What makes you sure that he'd separate them and give them different tiers of power. Again, don't exaggerate!! Each tailed beast have their own unique sets of abilities.
Kokuō physically being the strongest (his tech kinda functions like 8th inner gates) " kairiki musou" / "unrivalled physical strength"
1 tail being proficient at sealing with jinton
7 tails with blinding ability and air combat (it also looks an covered in armour like Susanoo)
4 tails is can control lava/fire/magma/plasma and things of that nature.
And the other beasts have their own sets of abilities.
In the first place, Kurama only looked more impressive than 1-7 tails because he has a master (Killerbee) who can use it's full powers effectively.
Kurama is more impressive with Naruto than with Minato, Tobi, Hashirama or Madara as Naruto is the ONLY one that can achieved resonance with his chakra (This was precisely Kurama words).
So, once again, stop exaggerating all of you.
---------- Post added at 04:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:34 AM ----------
If you aren't concerned about charged time, then there's nothing to talk about as Bujju's have demonstrated superior fire power. One slices mountains and the other is fully capable of obliterating multiple mountains - island.
Except Juubi my foot. Juubi isn't exempt from the Bijuu family, so as Madara said, PS is comparable to the Bijuu.
Oh btw, Kurama with Naruto is stronger than Kurama with Madara. You might want to add that next time, and stop exaggerating with statements like... "And this was back when Kurama was his HUGE form, far, far, FAR more powerful than the one Naruto or Minato have" just to prove an non-existent point .
---------- Post added at 04:51 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:48 AM ----------
PS is only stronger than the Bijuu given Kugura or her children's gift empower it (but then again, their gifts are empowering the Bijuu through Naruto as well).
Last edited by Kay3795; July 14, 2014 at 10:55 PM.
There's a very simple explanation for this. Karin is a teenager who is barely a ninja, the only people she's been exposed to are Sasuke, Orochimaru and his experiments. Despite how good of a sensor she is, the first Jinchruiki she encountered was likely Bee and the Raikage was likely the strongest person she ever met up until that point.
Many members of the Alliance on the other hand, has ninja who have been around since the second shinobi world war, who have been exposed to jinchuriki and legendary shinobi, they simply know better.
, and strength in the form of raw power.
We saw first hand where Kurama deflected the full power bijudama of six other biju. Moreover, Gyuki's statement about Kurama being strong, alluded to his power being on a different scale. Prior to that, Akatsuki were instructed that they should seal him last as not to upset the balance within the Gedo Mazo. A procedure later followed by Madara.
The biggest exaggeration was your comment about Madara not having chakra amount/volume/quantity that can compete against even 1/10 of the inhuman biju rivaling creatures like Hashirama or the Raikages
Again, a tailed beast with no master is indefinably inferior to one with a master, especially if said host has PERFECT control.
Kurama with 100% yin/yang without Naruto is like Hashiram's plaything at least. Not a threat, a child in comparison. Yet 50% Kurama who didn't go full power, his volume of chakra was stated by Hashirama to be comparable. Why? Beast Naruto achieved perfect resonance with Kurama's chakra (according to Kurama, he's the only one).
For instance, the tailed beast bomb Kurama made that Gyuki was impressed with, Gyuki could and has made something of those massive size http://www.mangastream.to/naruto-cha...0-page-16.html
It's merely a mater of pumping more 8:2 Black & White chakra to increase it's size.
Both Gyuki and Kurama have demonstrated relatively comparable feats (though Kurama, through Naruto is stronger). Even rapid fire Bijuu ball made in the eat of battle http://www.mangastream.to/naruto-cha...1-page-13.html
Kurama is strong. Probably the most overall destructive with it's chakra (and perhaps the wisest of his brothers and maybe the best fighter due to his wisdom)....(Hehe, this reminds me of Darksiders with War, Death, Fury & Strive) but non of the Beast regarded him as outright being stronger. Even Gyuki statement in that panel only attest to the fact that Kurama is strong.
. Akatsuki's knowledge of the tailed best true powers is practically mostly non existent given what we now know.
Kurama being the most utilised tailed beast (by the strongest shinobi) for battle due to his very destruction heavy probably gave them this mind-set. It's probably a plot device to make sure the main character doesn't get bombarded with a S classed criminal organisation. This becomes apparent when Madara took all the multiple beast AT ONCE with the same statue http://www.mangastream.to/naruto-cha...62-page-6.html
Though Madara appear to be a cut above other Uchiha in terms of chakra amount, it could easily be that way because his chakra is more potent than other uchiha.
The Uchiha are fighters with their visual magic and with potent chakra to supply them, not Physical bonefide authentic fighters with large chakra reverse to supply them like the Senji.
The Riakage's chakra level was comparable to a freakin Tailed Beast. Think about that for a sec, A FREAKIN TAILED BEAST!!!!
Madara's chakra easily trumps the Raikage's. I thought this much was obvious given how Madara could use jutsu on large scale without getting tired and was able to fight the Senju for an entire day, likely with huge jutsu.
If you're talking about the power of the chakra, then I'm sure Madara's >>>> Raikage's by miles.
At least you gave up addressing the Akatsuki lack of knowledge on the Bijuu part (Progress, my Life, I love you). But now I've gotta put an end to this specific thread.
It seemed Hashirama didn't consider their strength any different enough to not distributed the 1 tailed to the sand, the least resources village, and the 8th to the lightning, the most resourceful. But I'll get to this point more later.
To deny it being stronger through a host that has perfect control is to deny the subsequent links to be false.
1) http://www.mangastream.to/naruto-cha...17-page-8.html The sensory ninja not being about to tell the difference between Kurama's chakra and Naruto's chakra as it is fundamentally a compound mixture of both not just merely a mixture in the same body, hence it's stronger.
2) To deny it's not stronger is the equivalent of announcing that Kurama was full of shit for uttering proudly that Naruto achieved perfect form or "resonance" with his chakra. http://www.mangastream.to/naruto-cha...18-page-7.html
In that same page, the volume he channelled was commented to be frightening. Hashirama even compared it to his own http://www.mangastream.to/naruto-cha...5-page-11.html
And that was when Naruto only desired to power up the alliance and could (and did) power up even greater even later on.
Oh, did I neglect to mention that he was still missing another 50% of Kurama at this particular instance?
The original Japanese translation complements this even more so.
Madara attempted the same shit but with number one dragon restraining method--The dragon that supressed Kurama in the past with nothing but it's touch--and thought it would significantly control Naruto's performance, Naruto who btw was still just acclimatizing with the deepness of Kurama's power.
However, Naruto resisted that dragon, fought it with his fist and eventually bat the dragon's supressing/absorbing powers like he had no business with it. What worked perfectly well against the Beasts without perfect Hosts isn't gonna work in the same light against the Beasts with perfect hosts. Another example is MS genjustu. Young Obito controlled Kurama with it, but right now that Kurama is synced with Naruto as a perfect host? Pfft, he'd get the Lariat treatment Killerbee gave Sasuke.
Gyuki, a tailed beast controlled by Hashirama even said the wooden binding Dragon is as effective as Hashirama's http://www.mangastream.to/naruto-cha...10-page-5.html so IN B4 you pull the you know what card.
The job of resisting becomes easier when Naruto's resonance with Kurama becomes even deeper as it has every time he thereafter fought together with Kurama. First time it was a 5 mins time limit at full form, then it was about 8 mins and now he can stay in Kurama beast mode for longer.
*Where do I start.....* How about I say you have no way of proving otherwise either (like say with an on-panel page denoting the legitimacy of your words). The panel you initially brought up to prove so didn't prove it in the first place. It merely attest to the fact that Kurama is indeed a powerful beast.
Kurama probably having the most destructive force (probably his specialty like Kokuo, the 5 tailed phsycially being the strongest especially with his boil/stream release) doesn't equate to being the most powerful.
If 9>8>7>6.........1, even at 50%, then one tail wouldn't have bothered with that competitive side of his always opposing Kurama as Kurama was "tiers" (as someone mentioned before) inferior. It also means, the Sage wasn't a supporter of equality but a practitioner of prejudice, favouritism and of course inequality. That is detrimental to his believes and the character we've established of him.
And the sand (the village who would need the beast the most) wouldn't have accepted the 1 tailed from Hashirama, and Hashirama being the compassionate man that he is wouldn't have offered the 1 tailed Beast who is supposedly < 2 < 3 < 4 < 5 < 6 < 7 < 8 < 50% 9 < 100% 9.
Now here's an authentic unadulterated on-panel--through speech and display of feats--fact.
The Beast are stronger through a host than by themselves. Through a host, their chakra becomes one (remember Killerbee's lesson?) and through a perfect host, they complement each other's strengths, intelligence and fighting prowess than their closest obsessive girlfriend, and through a perfect host, both beast and man or woman able to metamorphose each of their individual limits and booster each other's power.
Through a perfect host whose chakra is strong and mighty like the exceptional talents in Uchiha clan, plentiful like the experienced veterans of the Senju clan or remarkably special like some in the Uzumaki clan, the beasts themselves are manifested on the surface as superior.
In Naruto's case, Kushina's special Uzumaki traits (as Kurama puts it) made it so that only Naruto (according to Kurama) could bond that deeply with him or have that kind of resonance with him and his power.
Another fact closely related to the above I want to touch is the actuality of chakra limitations a person or a Beast is subjected to more so when they fight merely as individuals than as partners.
A tailed Beast can run out of chakra. Allow it destroy mountains all day with rapid fired Bijuuballs and eventually he/she would run out of steam. In order to gain back the reserves lost, a tailed beast built chakra by concentration much like any shinobi would. However, it's disadvantageous in battle to stop and concentrate for more oomph, and so a perfectly partnered Beast has a friend to rely on while the beast builds chakra.
Kurama did this for Naruto multiple times. He did so prior to the very moment Naruto discovered Sage mode can effectively combat Obito's Transcendent Sage mode.
Kurama did it in the lastest couple of chapters when the 5 tailed, Kokuo maximized Naruto's chakra for intensive physical strength by pushing his chakra to the boiling point and have Kurama restore it.
Killerbee, being a perfect host, had done with his partner, the Gyuki multiple times.
And Naruto is now a chakra control freak due to his vast experience with Chakra manipulation in battle. He can now have an entire army have his chakra by perfectly synchronising his with theirs (though that's one of Naruto Uzumaki's kekkei genkai) in order to increase their chakra, boost the power of their techs and body. http://www.mangastream.to/naruto-cha...18-page-7.html The process reminds me of the relationship between an Enzyme, the Substrate and the Product.
There's just soooooooo..........ooooo many things that could be said about this particular subject of how Beast and Host in perfect unity complement each other's chakra, power, intelligence. Another is how an individual with powerful chakra--supposedly more powerful (not plentiful) than a lone Beast--is greatly benefited as he could now SPAM ridiculously out of the world techs--which he/she couldn't do prior as this individual had lower reserves--with the lowest of difficultly as the freakin tailed Beast removes the area of weakness.
An individual with fantastic chakra control is benefited with a perfect partnered Beast on the inside as this individual can maximize the efficiently of the chakra of the beast. Honestly, just read my first post concerning this topic, I hate redundantly repeating myself in this fashion (I make mistakes in writing that way).
Wait a sec...I just realised that you didn't give up on the Akatsuki's limited knowledge of the tailed beast? Damn, progression, my love, my life, why'd you do this to me
Again look at the page Madara ripped the entirety of the tailed beasts and sealed them in the statue all at the same time. I wonder how you could even speak against this glaring obvious reality that sealing them one by one is actually irrelevant at this point
And you gave me the biggest laugh just now about PS equating the Bijuu in chakra capacity. If that preposterous notion were true, EMS Sasuke has comparable chakra with the Bijuu and every other Uchiha also (like Itachi, one of the least competent shinobi in terms chakra reserves) would have Bijuu like volume with EMS. This is the same EMS Sasuke that was shitting his pants in envy that Naruto could control chakra of ridiculous magnitude, even when Naruto was just warming up.
No! Just no!! The very idea is unfathomable and seemingly makes you the one exaggerating here.
Speaking of exaggeration, I wasn't trying to exaggerate and I'll quote myself to show why.
"Uchiha having strong and potent chakra is a statement of fact."
"This potent chakra makes them utilise the most spectacular techs in respective of how limited their reserve is" This is a fact.
"The Uchiha are talented fighters with their visual magic and with potent chakra to supply them, not physical bona fide authentic fighters of the body with large chakra reverse to supply them like the Senji." This is a undeniable fact.
Unless The Sage of the Six paths secretly implanted the reserves of the Senji to the Uchiha (making them a combo of Yin and YANG), then it would seem you're the exaggerator here.
And if what you say is the case, Ashura (Senji's descendants) only has 50% of the sages power while Indra (Uchiha's descendants) have 100%. So the sage has 150%...........um..what a..second..this equation is mathematically fuckin retarded as it doesn't even make the slightest sense. It's factually BS http://www.mangastream.to/naruto-cha...81-page-7.html
Last edited by Kay3795; July 26, 2014 at 01:30 AM.
weaker without a host, a statement we now know to be only a half truth, because biju do have a mind and are actually quite knowledgeable.
Akatsuki was being led by Obito, whose knowledge of the biju was second only to Madara, Zetsu and Hashirama. Furthermore, Madara and Zetsu already confirmed that there is an order to sealing the biju, which he followed as shown in the order of the panels illustrating their sealing.
Gyuki's statement is irrelevant because the wooden dragon's absorption jutsu alone was never
enough; a fact illustrated with Yamato and Hashirama's use of Hokage-Shiki Jijun Jutsu — Kakuan Nitten Suishu and Mokuton: Mokujin no Jutsu respectively, to issue the 'sit' command. The fact that such an obvious point has been omitted from your novel, suggests that you are more concerned with winning a debate than actually addressing the facts and answering the OP's question.
statement upon witnessing the stabilization of Perfect Susanoo should satify any doubts about where his chakra stands by comparison.