Not a member? Register now!
Announcements
Manga returns! Catch up with the details. Enjoy downloading, translating, and scanlating manga HERE legally!
Like us on Facebook, follow us on Twitter! Celebrate another year with MH and read our yearbook.
Manga News: Check out this week's new manga (9/8/14 - 9/14/14).
Forum News: Visit new sections for Nisekoi and Kingdom!
Translations: Bleach 595 (2)
New Reply
Page 4 of 11 FirstFirst ... 2 3 4 5 6 ... LastLast
Results 46 to 60 of 164

Thread: Secondary Elements Explanation

  1. #46
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Neuroff's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Country
    United States
    Age
    29
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    1,231
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Secondary Elements Explanation

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken-Oh View Post
    Go look at the section about Sauske in the first post.
    You forgot the main thing you need in order to use Chidori. The ability to use Raiton. Sasuke had not done any lightning elemental training beforehand, so how would Kakashi know that Sasuke could do it? The only logical explanation is that Kakashi had Sasuke put chakra into the chakra paper and the paper crumpled.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken-Oh View Post
    In most likely a futile attempt to take the topic away from this pointless argument about captain emo, what elemental do you think someone like Shikamaru would have/utilize? His affinity is towards light/dark which hasn't been explained thus far so we don't even know if it realy is an element.

    If light/dark is an element i personaly think he would choose to learn water as it carries various offensive and defensive qualities as well as the manipulation of water sharing a similarity to the way he manipulates his shadow. Thus making it easier for him to aquire and use.

    If light/dark is not an element i think he would carry a natural affinity to earth jutsu. This is because of his clan and how they seem very rooted in nature and also how shadows are constantly connected with earth.
    I'd guess that yin/yang is the 6th element that Kishimoto randomly brought up and didn't explain during the Jiraiya fight.

  2. #47
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Ken-Oh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Ellesmere Port, Cheshire
    Country
    England
    Age
    26
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    107
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Secondary Elements Explanation

    Quote Originally Posted by Neuroff View Post
    You forgot the main thing you need in order to use Chidori. The ability to use Raiton. Sasuke had not done any lightning elemental training beforehand, so how would Kakashi know that Sasuke could do it? The only logical explanation is that Kakashi had Sasuke put chakra into the chakra paper and the paper crumpled.
    How is it that Kakashi can learn high level water jutsu with no affinity to water then? If what you are saying were true than every ninja would be limited to one element. Sauske was able to learn it because of the skill he picked up from the fire element and what Kakashi taught him. He didn't need an affinity because he already had the neccessary requirements to learn that element.


    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    Here's my take on "affinities and proficiencies". Having an affinity to an element means one is aligned to that element naturally, I.E., born with it. Usually when a ninja learns an B-rank or higher jutsu, it is the same affinity that they are aligned to because it's easier for one to manipulate the element they are already aligned to. I.E., Naruto could not have learned Chidori without first gaining a lightning proficiency; the ability to manipulate his chakra into an electrical current.

    A Proficiency with an element means that one has trained to gain the ability to use jutsu of that element, despite the fact that it is not normally aligned to them. Kakashi is aligned to Lightning, but proficient with water and earth thanks to years of training.

    The Uchiha clan normally are aligned to Fire like Itachi, but Sasuke is aligned to Lightning, hence the reason he specializes in Lightning, as they are the most seamless for him to perform. Sasuke can use Fire seamlessly aswell though, because he trained himself since childhood to learn to do so, not because he is equally aligned to Fire the way he is Lightning. Born with Lightning. Trained in Fire.

    Now, I'm sure that the reason Hashirama and Yamato can use Mokuton is because they're both aligned (not proficient) with Water and Earth. Kakashi is proficient with Water and Earth (not aligned), therefore he can't combine the two and create Mokuton.

    Thus, Sasuke can't make a super Lightning+Fire jutsu, IMO. Then again, I could be wrong...Naruto and Yamato combined FRS and a Water jutsu to make a big combination jutsu. Though I also really think that there's a difference between a jutsu made of two elements, and a jutsu that combine two elements to make one new element.

    But yeah, Sasuke's aligned to Lightning, proficient with Fire.
    I'll hand it to you, you half convinced me there by "actualy" providing some thought behind your statement. The fact that he uses lightning so seemlesley and has developed it so far is good evidence but until its given as fact i stand by my original statement.
    Last edited by Ken-Oh; April 30, 2008 at 03:53 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

  3. Thanks 1 Member(s) thanked this post
  4. #48
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted KnuckleheadedNinja's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    IN A MERCILESS STATE OF OBLIVION.
    Country
    Nigeria
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    5,574
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Secondary Elements Explanation

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkManSharingan32 View Post
    He used fire to create rainclouds and lightning...
    Pretty ingenious, yes.

    But i can't even fathom a way to make a jutsu attack faster than that.

    Especially a Fire jutsu.

    AND REMEMBER

    Sasuke only SPACIALLY CONTROLLED Kirin. (Albeit quite impressively)
    He didn't convert any of the chakra for that attack.
    <hr noshade size="1">


    Ding Ding Ding!

    Exactly my point. Thank you for following my lead this far.
    It's arguable... and that exactly whats going on here. lol
    exactly your point? you point a few post ago was that kakashi second element is water, how come your point now is that his second element is earth. your point is extremely confusing.

    "Too much hope is the opposite of despair... an overpowering love may consume you in the end."

  5. #49
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member DarkManSharingan32's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Country
    United States
    Age
    28
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    2,214
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Secondary Elements Explanation

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken-Oh View Post
    How is it that Kakashi can learn high level water jutsu with no affinity to water then? If what you are saying were true than every ninja would be limited to one element. Sauske was able to learn it because of the skill he picked up from the fire element and what Kakashi taught him. He didn't need an affinity because he already had the neccessary requirements to learn that element.
    <hr noshade size="1">


    I'll hand it to you, you half convinced me there by "actualy" providing some thought behind your statement. The fact that he uses lightning so seemlesley and has developed it so far is good evidence but until its given as fact i stand by my original statement.
    Quote Originally Posted by DarkManSharingan32 View Post
    Yes.
    Considering Sasuke age when he mastered ALL of his Fire Jutsu, as well as the Sharingan to aid in the learning of the jutsu...

    Sasuke has ALL the tools he needs to effectively learn ANY element if he puts his mind to it.

    Kakashi IDENTIFIES with Sasuke.
    He even tells Sasuke WHY he taught him the Chidori here:
    http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/177/07/

    It actually starts a page before that... but... thats the most pertinent part.
    Exactly my point again.
    ~Elemental Manipulation at its Best~

  6. #50
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Neuroff's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Country
    United States
    Age
    29
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    1,231
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Secondary Elements Explanation

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkManSharingan32 View Post
    Yes.
    Considering Sasuke age when he mastered ALL of his Fire Jutsu, as well as the Sharingan to aid in the learning of the jutsu...

    Sasuke has ALL the tools he needs to effectively learn ANY element if he puts his mind to it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ken-Oh View Post
    How is it that Kakashi can learn high level water jutsu with no affinity to water then? If what you are saying were true than every ninja would be limited to one element. Sauske was able to learn it because of the skill he picked up from the fire element and what Kakashi taught him. He didn't need an affinity because he already had the neccessary requirements to learn that element.
    Kakashi could learn water jutsu because he had time to train. Sasuke had to not only match Lee's speed and gain the ability to use Raiton, but to use spatial recomposition on it. Most of the training was spent on increasing Sasuke's speed, so Sasuke probably had less than two weeks to learn to manipulate lightning, learn spacial recomposition, and to combine it. To think that Kakashi would actually expect Sasuke to complete the training without Sasuke's affinity being lightning is unreasonable.

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkManSharingan32 View Post
    Kakashi IDENTIFIES with Sasuke.
    He even tells Sasuke WHY he taught him the Chidori here:
    http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/177/07/

    It actually starts a page before that... but... thats the most pertinent part.
    And that has nothing to do with Sasuke being able to use lightning.

  7. #51
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member DarkManSharingan32's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Country
    United States
    Age
    28
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    2,214
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Secondary Elements Explanation

    Quote Originally Posted by KnuckleheadedNinja View Post
    exactly your point? you point a few post ago was that kakashi second element is water, how come your point now is that his second element is earth. your point is extremely confusing.

    I happen to think that his secondary element is water. But you can argue it either way.

    My point was that jutsu amount does not exactly delineate elemental affinity.
    ~Elemental Manipulation at its Best~

  8. #52
    英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Country
    United States
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    1,591
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Secondary Elements Explanation

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkManSharingan32 View Post
    AND REMEMBER

    Sasuke only SPACIALLY CONTROLLED Kirin. (Albeit quite impressively)
    He didn't convert any of the chakra for that attack.
    He actually did. It was due to Sasuke releasing Gouryuuka and then controlling the effect it had on nature that Kirin arrived. Without Sasuke's own chakra reserves in play, we can't say that Sasuke would've formed Kirin in regards to the way he did against Itachi.

    @ Ken-Oh

    I think Shika would work with water, too. Just overall. But I take the yin/yang dichotomous quality as the plausible root of all elements. I just further want to say that Shika has the ability to exercise Yin at the source rather than having to implement a nature-based quality (like water) to exercise Yin.
    Last edited by ornis; April 30, 2008 at 04:07 PM.

  9. #53
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted KnuckleheadedNinja's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    IN A MERCILESS STATE OF OBLIVION.
    Country
    Nigeria
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    5,574
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Secondary Elements Explanation

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkManSharingan32 View Post
    I happen to think that his secondary element is water. But you can argue it either way.

    My point was that jutsu amount does not exactly delineate elemental affinity.

    of course jutsu amount does not exactly delineate elemental affinity.

    "Too much hope is the opposite of despair... an overpowering love may consume you in the end."

  10. #54
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Ken-Oh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Ellesmere Port, Cheshire
    Country
    England
    Age
    26
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    107
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Secondary Elements Explanation

    To be honest i'd just like to see Shikamaru using a few immense Jutsu. Water i think is one of the best elements astheticly so it would be great if he was a genius water user all of a sudden.

  11. #55
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member DarkManSharingan32's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Country
    United States
    Age
    28
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    2,214
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Secondary Elements Explanation

    Quote Originally Posted by Neuroff View Post
    Kakashi could learn water jutsu because he had time to train. Sasuke had to not only match Lee's speed and gain the ability to use Raiton, but to use spatial recomposition on it. Most of the training was spent on increasing Sasuke's speed, so Sasuke probably had less than two weeks to learn to manipulate lightning, learn spacial recomposition, and to combine it. To think that Kakashi would actually expect Sasuke to complete the training without Sasuke's affinity being lightning is unreasonable.


    And that has nothing to do with Sasuke being able to use lightning.

    Less than two weeks with Sasuke's Sharingan, and prior Elemental knowledge... seems MORE than reasonable to me.

    And it MAY have nothing to do with Lightning... But it does refute your prior reasoning for Kakashi training Sasuke, and teaching him Chidori.

    I think you need to stop underestimating Sasuke... it leaves you unable to comprehend his growth. Not trying to sound pompous, but if you treat Sasuke as an elite ninja with knowledge surpassing most of his classmates, as well as experience moulding an element from chakra... It's not really hard to see that it would take him much less time to learn than if he were being taught the whole concept altogether.
    ~Elemental Manipulation at its Best~

  12. #56
    英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Country
    United States
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    1,591
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Secondary Elements Explanation

    @Ken-Oh

    An idea I had before about Yin/Yang is as follows:


    Quote Originally Posted by ornis View Post
    Does anyone think that Yin/Yang is at the foundation of every element? Which is why Shikamaru's jutsu is labeled hidden... Kage Mane no Jutsu is an art that could be archaic to ninja who are ignorant of its benefit by circumstance or choice... consequently, Kage Mane may be such an advantage that the Nara Clan's implementation of the jutsu may not be highly guarded... but it wouldn't hurt for it to be >.>

    [...]

    Spoiler: Theory: 6th Element is Mind (involving 1984; FMA) show


    @ all

    Ease up on the secondary arguments unless you can tie them in with the thread's purpose.
    Last edited by ornis; April 30, 2008 at 04:09 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

  13. Thanks 1 Member(s) thanked this post
  14. #57
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member DarkManSharingan32's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Country
    United States
    Age
    28
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    2,214
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Secondary Elements Explanation

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken-Oh View Post
    To be honest i'd just like to see Shikamaru using a few immense Jutsu. Water i think is one of the best elements astheticly so it would be great if he was a genius water user all of a sudden.
    Nah. If Naruto develops water as a secondary element. Naruto might overshadow Shikamaru, and thus ruin his entire development.

    I think Shikamaru would do best to build his Yin/Yang into somekind of Summoning style.
    ~Elemental Manipulation at its Best~

  15. #58
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted KnuckleheadedNinja's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    IN A MERCILESS STATE OF OBLIVION.
    Country
    Nigeria
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    5,574
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Secondary Elements Explanation

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken-Oh View Post
    To be honest i'd just like to see Shikamaru using a few immense Jutsu. Water i think is one of the best elements astheticly so it would be great if he was a genius water user all of a sudden.

    didn't he already have wind? after asuma die

    "Too much hope is the opposite of despair... an overpowering love may consume you in the end."

  16. #59
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Ken-Oh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Ellesmere Port, Cheshire
    Country
    England
    Age
    26
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    107
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Secondary Elements Explanation

    Quote Originally Posted by ornis View Post
    @Ken-Oh

    An idea I had before about Yin/Yang is as follows:



    <hr noshade size="1">
    @ all

    Ease up on the secondary arguments unless you can tie them in with the thread's purpose.
    Thats pretty deep, so if i read that right Pein has the potential to maniplulate anything that natural as he manipulates the energy (yin/yang) not elements or chakra. To be honest i may have just completley confused it but thats the way i see it which in turn could mean Shikamaru has the potentil to push his own abilities further by looking beyound the use of shadows and learning to control yin/yang opening up infinite posibilities.

    I think i got that wrong but thats the impression i got.


    Quote Originally Posted by KnuckleheadedNinja View Post

    didn't he already have wind? after asuma die
    Seriously its not like Asuma gave him a pack of cigerates and said "smoke up boyo you can use wind now"

    http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/f...-Pir/gtfo2.jpg
    Last edited by Franckie; April 30, 2008 at 07:20 PM. Reason: Flamebait

  17. #60
    英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Country
    United States
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    1,591
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Secondary Elements Explanation

    Let's not lead into a flame here. Let's think of how it would personally feel if you're asked, "Are you a noob?" Shika never used wind by the way. And Ken-Oh, your link is out of commission.

    And yes, I think Pain may have that ability. But, I'm not sure Shika would have the same dexterity that Pain is blessed to have. I turn to the Rinnegan as the possible source for (or as having a significant aid in) Pain's adroit potential--if Pain can do all the things I assume. His efforts, as alluded to in my post, do imply that he can do almost anything imaginable.
    Last edited by ornis; April 30, 2008 at 04:31 PM.

New Reply
Page 4 of 11 FirstFirst ... 2 3 4 5 6 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts