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Thread: Secondary Elements Explanation

  1. #151
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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    Re: Secondary Elements Explanation

    I believe that a ninja should be able to use all 5 elements, but some will naturally be much weaker than others.

    A ninja can only have one elemental affinity. THat is the definition of an affinity. A ninja will naturally lean towards that one element. So that element will always be the strongest, but it does not mean a ninja cannot use other (or all the other) elements.

    For example, i believe that with the sharingan, one could easily learn techniques for all 5 elements. It's just.... they'd be weak as hell until the user trains with that element enough, and even then, it would not be as strong as a jutsu of the user's elemental affinity.

    So let's say Kakashi copies.... a wind jutsu (we've never seen him use a wind jutsu, so likely he is not too skilled at using them). He uses it, but it is not that powerful. However, he next copies a lightning jutsu, he uses it, and it is very powerful. In that way, I could see Kakashi using jutsu of all elements, it's just, they'd be weak if he has not trained with those elements enough (or if he just leans away from jutsu of that element that much). THerefore, he mainly uses jutsu of elements that he has experience with, primarily lightning of course, since he has likely trained with lightning the most, and it is his natural affinity.
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  3. #152
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Kuranzyan's Avatar
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    Re: Secondary Elements Explanation

    First, some ninja clans have a dual-elemental affinity. Haku's clan was a good example of this. So your statement of shinobi possessing only one affinity is void.

    Kakashi's elemental affinity and main element is Raiton, but his proficiency with Suiton is so great it allows him to fight on par with opponents like Zabuza, whose affinity is Suiton itself. The Uchiha clan has a fire affinity, yet Sasuke is using Raiton techniques with such proficiency its become second nature for him aswell.
    Asuma, whose elemental affinity is Fuuton has at least one Katon jutsu in his arsenal, one which is quite potent.

    An Elemental affinity allows the possessor to take his/her element to the extreme, as seen with Naruto's FRS. "Learned" elements might not be as potent as the affinity element, but they're not to be looked down upon.

  4. #153
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: Secondary Elements Explanation

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuranzyan View Post
    First, some ninja clans have a dual-elemental affinity. Haku's clan was a good example of this. So your statement of shinobi possessing only one affinity is void.

    Kakashi's elemental affinity and main element is Raiton, but his proficiency with Suiton is so great it allows him to fight on par with opponents like Zabuza, whose affinity is Suiton itself. The Uchiha clan has a fire affinity, yet Sasuke is using Raiton techniques with such proficiency its become second nature for him aswell.
    Asuma, whose elemental affinity is Fuuton has at least one Katon jutsu in his arsenal, one which is quite potent.

    An Elemental affinity allows the possessor to take his/her element to the extreme, as seen with Naruto's FRS. "Learned" elements might not be as potent as the affinity element, but they're not to be looked down upon.
    Ninja can only have more than one affinity if they have a Kekkai Genkai, like the Hyoton one that Haku's clan possed, or if they have the Rinnegan like Nagato.

    Kakazu didn't even have more than one affinity, he had 5 hearts, each with their own affintiy. There is a distinct difference.

    Also, Sasuke's affinity is Lightning not fire. All Uchiha can use Katon techniques or so it would seem, but that doesn't mean they have the fire affinity. It's a right of passage for them to use Fire Techniques.
    Last edited by Delbi; September 05, 2009 at 10:14 PM.
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  6. #154
    Hound of Shadow 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member benelori's Avatar
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    Re: Secondary Elements Explanation

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    Ninja can only have more than one affinity if they have a Kekkai Genkai, like the Hyoton one that Haku's clan possed, or if they have the Rinnegan like Nagato.

    Kakazu didn't even have more than one affinity, he had 5 hearts, each with their own affintiy. There is a distinct difference.

    Also, Sasuke's affinity is Lightning not fire. All Uchiha can use Katon techniques or so it would seem, but that doesn't mean they have the fire affinity. It's a right of passage for them to use Fire Techniques.
    Good point it's like a tradition.Goukakyuu is considered as a coming of age tech as we've seen sasuke ands his father relationship. Also we've seen sasuke not being very skilled with fire at first...he learned with guts.

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Hojinmaru's Avatar
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    Re: Secondary Elements Explanation

    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...64#post1187164
    This post is a walk through of how I've percieved Kishi's choices for elemental affinities and how it affect what second elements you would have. This seems like a better place to discuss it. For those that remember it from before sorry to bother you with bringing it back up.
    Last edited by Hojinmaru; May 07, 2010 at 12:44 AM.

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  10. #156
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    Re: Secondary Elements Explanation

    Quote Originally Posted by Hojinmaru View Post
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...64#post1187164
    This post is a walk through of how I've percieved Kishi's choices for elemental affinities and how it affect what second elements you would have. This seems like a better place to discuss it. For those that remember it from before sorry to bother you with bringing it back up.
    Thank you.
    That could really be the solution.

    To that question which element is Sasukes "true" affinity.

    I think to answer that question we also have to consider the fighting style of each character and the fitting chakra reserve.
    Take Naruto as an example.
    He has that huge chakra and uses it to create hundreds of kage bunshin to put his enemy down, he uses them to perform rasengan/rasenshuriken. Naruto couldn't do that without his great chakra. Basically Naruto is spamming his opponend with one jutsu and is winning by force.
    Another example is Itachi. He is a genius but i think we can say that his chakra reserves cannot be compared to Narutos.
    So Itachi cannot constantly spam power moves, like Naruto can. He mainly uses great speed, genjutsu and middle class ninjutsu to defeat the enemy by tactics. He was tired after using one tsukuyomi against Kakashi (and some minor techniques) and was forced to fall back after Gai appeared.

    So the point i want to make is: One's fighting style is strongly influenced by the mass of chakra you can use in battle.

    Generally i would say that Fire is a good weapon for someone with great chakra, it is THE offensive element, it would be quite fitting for Naruto with his great chakra.

    Lightning is also offensive but more versed than fire, perfekt for someone with a small chakra reservoir, the best example here is of course Kakashi.

    So let's take a closer look at Sasuke.
    We know for sure that his stamina is not as great as Narutos, so is his chakra.
    I'd set him around Itachi's level, chakra verse, so more than Kakashi, but less than Naruto (Shippuuden).
    Because of his Sharingan, Sasuke is of course similar to Itachi.
    He analyzes his opponent and will not waste any chakra, because he cannot afford (Naruto can).
    So Sasukes attacks should hit the enemy, so many of his moves are made to create an opening.
    That is basically his fighting style: Create an opening, moving fast in the enemys blindspot, avoiding counterattacks with Sharingan and hit enemy with Chidori in the chest.
    That's basically how he fought Deidara.
    http://www.mangareader.net/93-363-6/...apter-358.html
    Here Sasuke uses Chidori Eiso to get Deidara. He could've used a Katon Jutsu, but Katon Jutsu appear to be quite slow, so they are "easy" to dodge, thats why Sasuke can't spam them.
    Also it is not true that Chidori is Sasukes only finisher.
    In part one he used Katon Ryuuka as a finishing move against Oro, and twice against Naruto at the Valley of the End.
    Its just the case that Raitong favours Sasukes fighting style, it is easier to kill someone with chidori than burning him to death, i'd say.
    But the fact that Sasuke uses his Raitong Jutsu mainly as a finisher (Chidori, Kirin) should not let us forget that his fire jutsu are also very important.
    They either used to create an opening (Housenka, Goukakyuu) or to set up Kirin (Goryuuka).
    And that is even more important than just the finishing blow. A kunai could do the job as well.
    That brings me to my conclusion and that simply is, that there is none.
    We just do not know which of Sasukes elements is his true affinity, but i think we can agree that both are important in his repertoire of techniques that make up his fighting style.

  11. #157
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ninjabot's Avatar
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    Re: Secondary Elements Explanation

    From what I understand, everyone without a Kekkei Genkai to change the rule, is born with one affinity. We'll take Sasuke for example, who was born with the Lightning affinity.

    Through training however, one can gain proficiency with another element (this is how Sasuke has Lightning and Fire, because he trained to gain proficiency with Fire). Kakashi also was born with Lightning, but trained to use Water and Earth. Mokuton is used thanks to a KG that combines Water and Earth elements, but because Kakashi doesn't have a KG that lets him combine these elements, he can't use Mokuton (unlike Yamato or Shodai. Yamato's a sort of clone of Shodai, who could use Mokuton thanks to his KG of combining Earth and Water).

    I also think that everyone born with the KG to combine two elements is automatically born with the two elemental affinities required, based on how Haku could use ice from childhood without even having any ninjutsu training.

  12. #158
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    Re: Secondary Elements Explanation

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    I also think that everyone born with the KG to combine two elements is automatically born with the two elemental affinities required, based on how Haku could use ice from childhood without even having any ninjutsu training.
    I agree that talented members of a clan with an elemental kg display proficiency with it at a young age just like other kg clans (like Itachi in the Uchiha clan). I'm pretty sure this specific example with Haku using Hyouton in childhood was anime only, though.

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    Re: Secondary Elements Explanation

    I'd just like to point something out real quick-this may have been said already, I don't feel like reading through 11 pages...in regards to anyone with a Sharingan, elemental affinity doesn't really matter. They can copy ANY jutsu of ANY element.

    Saying Kakashi has a secondary element is like saying he has a tertiary, and (whatever the ary is for 4 and 5) element too. It's been stated several times that the only jutsu he's ever invented by himself was Chidori. Kakashi is lightning. Every other jutsu he's used was a copy of something he saw once.

    And in the case of Sasuke with Chidori...it doesn't matter what element he was when Kakashi wanted to teach that jutsu to him. Sasuke has the SHARINGAN. He can copy whatever he wants. He developed his Katon to punch through concrete; regardless of how often he does it, it's still a neat trick that he taught himself, and it proves that he WAS interested in developing his Katon. Later, he falls back on Amaterasu quite a bit, and uses plenty of Katon vs the various Kages...plus, the fact is, the first jutsu he ever learned was Katon. It may not be his favorite, but it IS his primary element.

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    Re: Secondary Elements Explanation

    Quote Originally Posted by Zau View Post
    I'd just like to point something out real quick-this may have been said already, I don't feel like reading through 11 pages...in regards to anyone with a Sharingan, elemental affinity doesn't really matter. They can copy ANY jutsu of ANY element.

    Saying Kakashi has a secondary element is like saying he has a tertiary, and (whatever the ary is for 4 and 5) element too. It's been stated several times that the only jutsu he's ever invented by himself was Chidori. Kakashi is lightning. Every other jutsu he's used was a copy of something he saw once.

    And in the case of Sasuke with Chidori...it doesn't matter what element he was when Kakashi wanted to teach that jutsu to him. Sasuke has the SHARINGAN. He can copy whatever he wants. He developed his Katon to punch through concrete; regardless of how often he does it, it's still a neat trick that he taught himself, and it proves that he WAS interested in developing his Katon. Later, he falls back on Amaterasu quite a bit, and uses plenty of Katon vs the various Kages...plus, the fact is, the first jutsu he ever learned was Katon. It may not be his favorite, but it IS his primary element.
    I do believe you missed the point of this whole thread....
    what ya are saying is true but that its. This thread isn't about sharingan users who can copy jutsu, but about the affinity and then learning/mastering additional elements. The last few examples did include the sharingan because of what ya said, but you missed the point that people also mentioned that even the sharingan can't powerup a jutsu to the point it to be equal with the enemy using it.
    Take kakashi for example he has shown to be proficient at earth and water element while his affinity is lightning, this has been proven that he was able to fight on par with zabuza with water element jutsu, not because of his sharingan (the sharingan only copied the jutsu).
    Sasuke is a genius and he is proficient at using lightning as fire element and we dont know what his real affinity is actualy as I doubt he was tested for it, I dare say his mastery of both the element is equal bt like some mentioned before lightning has his preference due its cutting power with his sword or hands in taijutsu.
    And you might have noticed that both kakashi as sasuke do not use any other type of elements that they have trained with while kakashi has copied over a 1000 jutsu and sasuke probably alot himself during his stay with Oro. The 3th hokage is the last example of this, he only uses a few select jutsu combinations while he knows all jutsu within konoha and probably many other countries aswell.

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    Re: Secondary Elements Explanation

    The first post of this thread was a theory about how someone trains and learns his secondary affinity. I was pointing out that, for an Uchiha, it doesn't matter how they learn a jutsu; they can copy anything.

    If they can copy a jutsu, obviously, their bodies at least have the ability to manipulate any element. Having the ability to use any element probably helps in advancing a jutsu to a further level.

    As for Kakashi, every Suiton jutsu we've seen him use has been copied from Zabuza. Jutsu are tools. Kakashi is referred to as elite within his village, and is renowned world-wide; this implies he's a skilled ninja.

    Kakashi is good at using jutsu period. He knows when to use what, and has the jutsu collection to fit any strategy he feels like using. It's like what Zetsu said during the Sasuke vs Itachi fight-it's just a tool, someone might be better at using it than someone else. Kakashi happens to be good at using ninjutsu he copies. He's not necessarily well-trained in Suiton, Doton, Katon, and Raiton...his sharingan makes him able to use the jutsu, his brain makes him able to use them effectively.


    The point of my post was to say that Sharingan users can't be considered in this thread; only those with two or more elements without the sharingan, since the sharingan is a massive unbalancer in the element argument.

  16. #162
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member LanderZ's Avatar
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    Re: Secondary Elements Explanation

    Quote Originally Posted by Zau View Post
    The first post of this thread was a theory about how someone trains and learns his secondary affinity. I was pointing out that, for an Uchiha, it doesn't matter how they learn a jutsu; they can copy anything.

    If they can copy a jutsu, obviously, their bodies at least have the ability to manipulate any element. Having the ability to use any element probably helps in advancing a jutsu to a further level.

    As for Kakashi, every Suiton jutsu we've seen him use has been copied from Zabuza. Jutsu are tools. Kakashi is referred to as elite within his village, and is renowned world-wide; this implies he's a skilled ninja.

    Kakashi is good at using jutsu period. He knows when to use what, and has the jutsu collection to fit any strategy he feels like using. It's like what Zetsu said during the Sasuke vs Itachi fight-it's just a tool, someone might be better at using it than someone else. Kakashi happens to be good at using ninjutsu he copies. He's not necessarily well-trained in Suiton, Doton, Katon, and Raiton...his sharingan makes him able to use the jutsu, his brain makes him able to use them effectively.


    The point of my post was to say that Sharingan users can't be considered in this thread; only those with two or more elements without the sharingan, since the sharingan is a massive unbalancer in the element argument.
    We have never seen, in canon display, any Sharingan user utilizing "all elements" by way of copying. Kakashi has used Raiton (Ex. Raikiri), Suiton (Ex. Mizubunshin, Suijinheki [Not copied from Zabuza], Suiryuudan, Suikoudan), and Doton (Ex. Doryuuheki, Dochuu Eigyo, Shinjuu Zanshuu). We have never seen Kakashi use any Katon or Fuuton, further leading us to believe that even Sharingan users can only utilize up to 3 elements.

    It was a very big deal when Nagato was found to be able to use 5 (well, 6 initially, 5 was the later correction) elements, and much the same was said about Kakuzu when he fought Kakashi and co. I don't think Sharingan, despite what was said in the first 30 chapters/first 12 episodes, can copy any/every Jutsu.

    Even Sarutobi Hiruzen, the "Professor" who knew every Jutsu in Konoha, never showed any ability to USE all the Jutsu. Just because you know the hand-seals and theory behind a Jutsu doesn't mean you can necessarily manipulate it. We have seen absolutely ZERO evidence of him being able to USE every Jutsu in Konoha.

    As for "secondary elements", we have seen several examples of people who can use 2 or 3 elements (Kakashi, Mizukage Mei, Asuma, Hashirama, Yamato/Tenzou, Sasuke, Roushi and more besides), and I don't think it makes much difference what your first or second element are. Sasuke uses both Katon and Raiton with considerable proficiency, and they seem to follow the same Uchiha style he used as a kid rather than being new, "copied from Orochimaru" Jutsu (Gouryuuka seems to be a step up from Ryuuka, or a combo of Goukakyuu/Ryuuka, for instance), and Asuma is stated to be a Fuuton-user while he used a nice B-ranked Katon Haisekishou on Hidan without much issue.

    I think that most people, assuming they practice with and learn their elements well enough, can use 2 with considerable proficiency, and can learn a third to some lesser extent... We see Kakashi use an S/A-rank Raiton, a B rank Doton (Doryuuheki), and both B and A ranked Suitons (Suiryuudan/Suikoudan/Suijinheki, and Daibakufuu), so I'd guesstimate that he can proficiently use Suiton and Raiton, and caps off his Doton at a lesser scale.

    But who knows, maybe he can use all 3 elements quite well. In any case, I don't think anyone, barring Rinnegan or Jiongu users, can successfully use all 5 elements.

  17. #163
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Eprst's Avatar
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    Re: Secondary Elements Explanation

    The thing is manga is called Naruto Hurricanes - so I strongly beleive that Naruto eventually will learn second element water. He plans on fighting Sasuke and of course in such fight it would be important to oppose Sasukes strongest jutsus.

    Also I would like to add - it looks like affinity is also developed through location: Kumo ninjas are excelent with raiton due to the way they live in mountains where the lightning is. Sand people are good with wind because it is windy in desert.
    Haku lived in the cold place so eventually he started work with ice.
    What I am trying to explain is maybe this affinity has something to do with the environment?

  18. #164
    Hound of Shadow 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member benelori's Avatar
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    Re: Secondary Elements Explanation

    Actually that's the anime's name...the manga has no connection to Shippuuden and even the part 2 name is just made up by fans to make better difference between pre-timeskip and post-timeskip....the manga is still just Naruto

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