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Thread: Secondary Elements Explanation

  1. #1
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Ken-Oh's Avatar
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    Secondary Elements Explanation

    In alot of threads people seem to be making blind asumptions about secondary elements being a natural occurence. Heres my personal view on them. I believe they are chosen and developed by the user as an effective weapon or defense along with there current techniques, not a family trait or tied to there natural affinity.

    Heres the 5 main elements as refference.

    Water - Offensive/Defensive, Mid to long range
    Strong aginst Fire - Weak against Earth

    Fire - Offensive, Mid to long range
    Strong aginst Wind - Weak against Water

    Wind - Offensive/Defensive, Close to mid range
    Strong aginst Lightning - Weak against Fire

    Lightning - Offensive, Close range
    Strong aginst Earth - Weak against Wind

    Earth - Defensive/Offensive, Close to mid range
    Strong aginst Water - Weak against Lightning

    Thus far the main displays we have seen are here in order, if i missed out Itachi on purpose though because his secondary element hasn't been made clear. Hopefully this will go someway to explaining.

    Kakashi - 1st Lightning - 2nd Water

    Kakashi has low levels of chakra so controling the flow and amount of chakra precisely has always been key to his fighting style. Once he obtained Sharingan he was then able to see the flow of chakra. Water as an element is all about flow and control, it has defensive and offensive qualities and is also able to conduct his primary element of lighting. If there is a nearby water source a user can save on chakra but if needs be Kakashi is also able to recompose chakra elementaly within his body as we have seen with Raikiri. Given this evidence water seems the most logical choice for Kakashi to use especialy considering fire is probably the most common element in Konoha making water the least, this would help guard against a teams natural weakness.

    Sauske - 1st Fire - 2nd Lightning

    No matter what people say i still beleive Sauske's natural element is fire, just because he has pushed lightning further than Kakashi doesn't make it his affinity. The reason Kakashi taught Sauske Chidori was because of the abilities he already had; Sharingan, elemental recomposition and physical prowess i.e. Taijutsu. These are the neccessaties of the Jutsu. Fire and lightning are simmilar elements; both are generaly internally generated by the user, both are primarily destructive and most important of all they have only one element between them in the cycle, wind. While lightning is weak against wind, fire is made stronger by it. On the other hand fires weakness, water, is not particuly vunerable to lighining however water conducts lighting. Through developing Chidori Nagashi he has negated any weakness his elements have.

    Sarutobi - 1st Fire - 2nd Earth

    Although it has never been clearly stated it seems the thirds affinity was towards fire given he used mainly fire Jutsu. Another reason for this is that Orochimaru seems to have an earth affinity making fire an effective weapon against it. Also from what we seen in that fight he is skilled with eath Jutsu and used them in conjunction with his fire Justu. You may wonder why he didn't work on developing wind as his second element considering the genius he was described as but keep in mind that wind is described as a rare element not a rare affinity indicating it must be the most difficult or near impossible to learn without a natural affinity. Given that Madara is depicted carrying a huge fan to enhance his fire Jutsu in the past i think it is clear even he couldn't learn it.

    Jiraiya - 1st Earth - 2nd Fire

    Jiraiya has never been fully explained either but considering the level of his earth Jutsu compared to that of his fire Jutsu, i think its safe to say he is earth natured. I didn't explain Sarutobi fully because the reason Jiraiya chose to learn fire is the same as why the third chose earth, also its probably were Jiraiya learnt this style from. Fire is primaraly destructive and very effective in that respect, while earth is primaraly defensive. This balance in itself is good reason to have these two elements but when you take into acount that when earth and fire are combined the destructive ability of the Jutsu is greatly increased it makes this combination an even bigger plus. The final point is that they are once again one element apart meaning fires weakness, water, is weak against earth. Earths weakness, lighning, however is a destructive type like fire. This does not negate earths weakness like with Sauske but it does create a stalemate of sorts making this an effective combination.

    Asuma - 1st Wind - 2nd Fire

    This in an obvious choice for Asmua to learn; although he never displayed the abiltiy to combine the two, if he ever did his Jutsu would be immensley destructive and unable to be defended against by even water. Also Asuma has learned his natural weakness essentialy negating its effectivness against him, i can also see wind being an effective offense and defense againts water making this a well suited combination for battle.

    As you can see above these combinations of elements have been chosen for there effectivness in combat both seperatley and combined. Each user has developed a fighting style around there choice of elements in order to defend against a weakness, increase attack power or even conserve chakra.

    If anyone can remember another character who displayed the use of two elements who doesn't seem to correspond to my theory or if you have any thoughts that contradict it let me know.
    Last edited by Ken-Oh; April 28, 2008 at 06:40 AM.

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  3. #2
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    Re: Secondary Elements Explanation

    Some of your character suggestions for the two elements I do not exactly agree with (mostly Sasuke ), but some other ones would include the users of Hyoton and Mokuton (who are known to combine water/wind and earth/water, respectively). Since they are using them in tandem to form another element, I would guess that they have probably an equal affinity to both elements.

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    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Ken-Oh's Avatar
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    Re: Secondary Elements Explanation

    I did not include Hyoton and Mokuton because they have affinites to both the elements it requires meaning neither is a secondary element. If anything the second element of a fusion user would in fact be the fusion itself as e.g. Yammato's Primary element would be Earth and Water individualy and Moukton as the secondary element as it is a biproduct of his primary elements.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member DarkManSharingan32's Avatar
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    Re: Secondary Elements Explanation

    Quote Originally Posted by Tsukisama View Post
    Some of your character suggestions for the two elements I do not exactly agree with (mostly Sasuke ), but some other ones would include the users of Hyoton and Mokuton (who are known to combine water/wind and earth/water, respectively). Since they are using them in tandem to form another element, I would guess that they have probably an equal affinity to both elements.
    Why not?
    People forget that the reason Kakashi taught the Chidori to Sasuke... was to build upon his speed for the Gaara fight.

    Sasuke is just good. Thats all there is to it. lol.
    ---

    And equal affinity really doesn't matter I believe...
    Thats like saying the Sharingan is a Fire/Lightning Combination...

    You just need to be at a level where you can compose both chakras and mix them.

    Sounds easy... but it's obviously quite difficult. Especially the way Shodaime/Yamato accomplish it.
    ~Elemental Manipulation at its Best~

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    Re: Secondary Elements Explanation

    About the one "element apart"-thing:
    The way Kishimoto arranges the elements makes it impossible (for someone who has two elements) more than one element between.

    And for Kakashi. I guess earth instead of water would have been a better choice. Not only could he counter water (which seems to be the weakness of Konoha-people since most of them have a fire affinity) but he could counter quite strong wind-jutsus too (because earth/lightning is like wind/fire). Furthermore earth has as you stated defensive-qualities aswell and earth is everywhere so he should be able to save more chakra than by using water which is quite rare in some areas.


    And if I could choose my second element I would choose it so that it could amplify my first element.

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    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Ken-Oh's Avatar
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    Re: Secondary Elements Explanation

    If you haven't already noticed Kakashi is already able to use Earth Jutsu at a limitited level, your right it would have been a good defensive combination with his lightning element however it appears difficult to learn elements next to each other in the cycle.

    The only ones to have displayed this at a high level thus far are Itachi's use of Water and Fire and Asuma's use of Fire and Wind. This excludes Yamato and Kakuzu for obvious reasons. Itachi has been able to learn elements next to each other in the cycle thanks to his Sharingan and the fact he is a genius. Asuma on the other hand was naturaly gifted with the rare Wind element while his father was a genius of Fire Jutsu, this would have made it much easier for him to learn to use Fire considering he would have been trained by arguably the greatest genius Konoha has ever seen.

    Given that evidence i think its clear Kakashi chose water as it was his most viable option and as you stated yourself chose the element which amplified his own, although he obviously did wish to learn Earth Jutsu as well.

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    Re: Secondary Elements Explanation

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkManSharingan32 View Post
    Why not?
    People forget that the reason Kakashi taught the Chidori to Sasuke... was to build upon his speed for the Gaara fight.

    Sasuke is just good. Thats all there is to it. lol.
    I am a member of the camp that thinks that Sasuke has an affinity for lightning. Right now, a case can be made for Sasuke's elemental affinity to be either fire or lightning, but lightning has my vote for now. Until it is expressly stated in the manga (or at least hinted to a point where there is very little doubt), I am going to stick with lightning.

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    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Secondary Elements Explanation

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkManSharingan32 View Post
    Why not?
    People forget that the reason Kakashi taught the Chidori to Sasuke... was to build upon his speed for the Gaara fight.


    ---
    Wasn't it the other way around? I mean sasuke training to get speed in order to be able to use chidori?

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    Re: Secondary Elements Explanation

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Wasn't it the other way around? I mean sasuke training to get speed in order to be able to use chidori?
    They go hand in hand.
    To beat Gaara, Sasuke needed above average speed...
    and to use Chidori effectively... he needed that same speed.

    Kakashi used a method that both enhanced Sasuke elemental capacity, as well as improved his speed. Another great training from the mind of Kakashi.
    ---
    BUT... Had Sasuke drew anyone (besides Lee) else in the tournament, it's arguable that Sasuke would have not learned Chidori at that point in the manga.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tsukisama View Post
    I am a member of the camp that thinks that Sasuke has an affinity for lightning. Right now, a case can be made for Sasuke's elemental affinity to be either fire or lightning, but lightning has my vote for now. Until it is expressly stated in the manga (or at least hinted to a point where there is very little doubt), I am going to stick with lightning.
    Understandable... But I would contest that Lightning just lends itself to be a better utility element. It can be created from the hand, and thus is much easier to manipulate.

    Fire on the other hand... Has been shown purely from the belly/mouth. Not exactly easy to use besides in pure offense.
    ---

    And I believe that at this point jutsu-wise I think Sasuke might have control over more FIRE jutsu. If not... the numbers are really close.

    Uchiha have a natural affinity for Fire. That much has been stated... and until that is refuted, i'll stick with that camp.
    Last edited by DarkManSharingan32; April 29, 2008 at 11:22 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
    ~Elemental Manipulation at its Best~

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Neuroff's Avatar
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    Re: Secondary Elements Explanation

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkManSharingan32 View Post
    And I believe that at this point jutsu-wise I think Sasuke might have control over more FIRE jutsu. If not... the numbers are really close.

    Uchiha have a natural affinity for Fire. That much has been stated... and until that is refuted, i'll stick with that camp.
    In every single fight since he learned Chidori, lightning has been Sasuke's main element. Even when Sasuke actually uses fire, he uses it to setup a lightning attack. The only valid argument for Sasuke being better with fire was the argument that his "that jutsu" was a fire jutsu. Too bad Sasuke came out with Kirin.

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    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member
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    Re: Secondary Elements Explanation

    I still think Sasuke main affinity is lighting... It makes sense. It only took him a month to be able to do chidori...Heck, it might be even in a day. Kakashi said that the month long exercise was to build up his speed so chidori can be more effective. Sasuke might have been late learning the chidori which was taught in the last day. I think kakashi surely used the element paper.

    Sasuke has problems learning fire techniques. This is shown by when he was young, he spent so much time learning the grand fireball technique. If one has affinity, he should be able to pick it up much faster. Even naruto learnt to untilise wind in such a short time.( He used bunshin but still he was an amaturer.) So in conclusion, i believe sasuke main affinity is lighting, as the user above said, he is using lighting more in his battle and we have only seen one new fire technique.

    My theory is that the second element is "Forced". Like the thread starter said, i believe the second element is forced by creating seals to change ones chrakra into that element. Hence, it might be possible that a person dont have the element at all but forcefully learn a few techniques of the other element to give oneself an edge in battle.

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member mestizo311's Avatar
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    Re: Secondary Elements Explanation

    Quote Originally Posted by Tsukisama View Post
    I am a member of the camp that thinks that Sasuke has an affinity for lightning. Right now, a case can be made for Sasuke's elemental affinity to be either fire or lightning, but lightning has my vote for now. Until it is expressly stated in the manga (or at least hinted to a point where there is very little doubt), I am going to stick with lightning.
    I was under the impression that those having a bloodline limit meant they were born with two elemental affinity's. We've only read that the Uchiha's were skilled in fire element techniques but according to Kakashi, a bloodline limit clan have two nature affinity's. Wouldn't it be sensible to say that the Uchiha's elemental affinity's be fire and lightning?

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    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member lagif's Avatar
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    Re: Secondary Elements Explanation

    I personally think if speak about Sasuke, he has equal affinity for fire and lightning. He'd used both elements so far, and the fact he prefers Lightning may be explained by it's effectivity.

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    Re: Secondary Elements Explanation

    Quote Originally Posted by mestizo311 View Post
    I was under the impression that those having a bloodline limit meant they were born with two elemental affinity's. We've only read that the Uchiha's were skilled in fire element techniques but according to Kakashi, a bloodline limit clan have two nature affinity's. Wouldn't it be sensible to say that the Uchiha's elemental affinity's be fire and lightning?
    It is possible for the Sharingan to have a dual affinity for fire and lightning, but I interpreted Kakashi's statement on the use of two elements in combination a little differently. I think that he was saying that it requires some sort of genetic factor to create a new element from two or more other elements and thus a kekkai genkai is required and perhaps even formed in this way.

    I don't think that he is saying that all kekkai genkai are element recombinations, but that elemental recombinations into new elements are characteristically kekkei genkai (as in they are a type of kekkei genkai). I think that the dojutsu are another type of kekkei genkai, but that's just my opinion. Until more information comes out, either interpretation of Kakashi's statement is viable.

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    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Ken-Oh's Avatar
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    Re: Secondary Elements Explanation

    For those who don't pay attention using two elemental affinities as one "is" a Kekkei Genkai, it does not mean everyone with a Kekkei Genkai such as Sharingan or Byakugan has two affinities.

    Just because Sauske is using lightning more reguarly than fire doesn't mean its his elemental affinity. So far Kakashi has used only one lightning Jutsu while using and displaying great skill with several water Jutsu, this is because while they are not his elemental affinity they are more suited to his style of combat. Also we have never seen Asuma use wind other than with his chakra blades while in the same battle he used a high level fire Jutsu, this was once again for the purpose of suiting his style of combat. I beleive the same applies for Sauske and lightning.

    As for earth being a better matched second element for fire that is very true, and i belive he would have learnt earth jutsu under Orochimaru as it is pretty apparent from his Jutsu that earth was his affinity. Sauske learnt lightning first because he would not have stood a chance against Gaara with earth and fire. Also the simmilarities between lightning and fire would have made it a much easier element to learn explaining how he aquired it so fast. Since that point Sauske has clearly discovered it suits his style of combat and would be destructive enough to help him defeat Itachi i.e. Kirin. Much like Kakashi, Sauske has seen that his affinity is not as well suited to him as it could be so has chose to develop another element further. In this case lightning.
    Last edited by ornis; April 30, 2008 at 01:37 PM. Reason: changed idiots to those

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