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Thread: Secondary Elements Explanation

  1. #16
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member DarkManSharingan32's Avatar
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    Re: Secondary Elements Explanation

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken-Oh View Post
    For those who don't pay attention using two elemental affinities as one "is" a Kekkei Genkai, it does not mean everyone with a Kekkei Genkai such as Sharingan or Byakugan has two affinities.

    Just because Sauske is using lightning more reguarly than fire doesn't mean its his elemental affinity. So far Kakashi has used only one lightning Jutsu while using and displaying great skill with several water Jutsu, this is because while they are not his elemental affinity they are more suited to his style of combat. Also we have never seen Asuma use wind other than with his chakra blades while in the same battle he used a high level fire Jutsu, this was once again for the purpose of suiting his style of combat. I beleive the same applies for Sauske and lightning.

    As for earth being a better matched second element for fire that is very true, and i belive he would have learnt earth jutsu under Orochimaru as it is pretty apparent from his Jutsu that earth was his affinity. Sauske learnt lightning first because he would not have stood a chance against Gaara with earth and fire. Also the simmilarities between lightning and fire would have made it a much easier element to learn explaining how he aquired it so fast. Since that point Sauske has clearly discovered it suits his style of combat and would be destructive enough to help him defeat Itachi i.e. Kirin. Much like Kakashi, Sauske has seen that his affinity is not as well suited to him as it could be so has chose to develop another element further. In this case lightning.
    I agree with this post pretty much entirely...
    Not many posts lately that I do that with.

    But for those too lazy to read all of it, heres a summary of the first part:

    Just because Sasuke uses the lightning element "more", DOES NOT mean that is his Elemental Affinity.

    So far, Sasuke has used it for Tactical Advantages.

    In the Hideout at the beginning of Part II:
    Used Nagashi as a quick way to disperse Naruto & Co.

    Vs. Deidara.
    Pure Elemental Advantage

    Vs. Itachi.
    Used two high quality fire jutsu, and I believe two Lightning jutsu (one being Kirin).
    Last edited by ornis; April 30, 2008 at 01:38 PM.
    ~Elemental Manipulation at its Best~

  2. #17
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Neuroff's Avatar
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    Re: Secondary Elements Explanation

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken-Oh View Post
    For the idiots who don't pay attention using two elemental affinities as one "is" a Kekkei Genkai, it does not mean everyone with a Kekkei Genkai such as Sharingan or Byakugan has two affinities.
    Yes, this is true.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken-Oh View Post
    Just because Sauske is using lightning more reguarly than fire doesn't mean its his elemental affinity. So far Kakashi has used only one lightning Jutsu while using and displaying great skill with several water Jutsu, this is because while they are not his elemental affinity they are more suited to his style of combat. Also we have never seen Asuma use wind other than with his chakra blades while in the same battle he used a high level fire Jutsu, this was once again for the purpose of suiting his style of combat. I beleive the same applies for Sauske and lightning.
    Kakashi can use several water jutsu, but he will still always fall back on Chidori or MS as his finisher. Sasuke has never even done damage with fire jutsu, and even when he uses a huge fire jutsu like Gouryuuka, its only purpose was to setup his lightning.

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkManSharingan32 View Post
    Just because Sasuke uses the lightning element "more", DOES NOT mean that is his Elemental Affinity.
    If he actually made an effort to use fire jutsu once in a while, that might be true. He doesn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkManSharingan32 View Post
    Vs. Deidara.
    Pure Elemental Advantage
    He figured it out by accident, because he defaults to using lightning. Sasuke didn't actually know Deidara was an Earth user before they started fighting.

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkManSharingan32 View Post
    Vs. Itachi.
    Used two high quality fire jutsu, and I believe two Lightning jutsu (one being Kirin).
    He used Chidori 3 times and used the fire only to setup Kirin.

  3. #18
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member DarkManSharingan32's Avatar
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    Re: Secondary Elements Explanation

    Quote Originally Posted by Neuroff View Post
    Yes, this is true.

    If he actually made an effort to use fire jutsu once in a while, that might be true. He doesn't.
    He used Gokakyuu against Itachi remember...
    There was a huge clash to which Itachi used Amaterasu to counter.


    Quote Quote:
    He figured it out by accident, because he defaults to using lightning. Sasuke didn't actually know Deidara was an Earth user before they started fighting.
    He knew they were essentially Earth Element attacks since he states he saw the Earth Seal... He just wasn't sure his Electricity was the reason the bombs did not detonate. (Of course he didn't know BEFORE fighting. Be once Deidara used his jutsu ONCE... he was clued in)

    http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/361/13/

    Actually, no offense intended... Just re-read that entire chapter without a Bias... and you see that there was no accident. Only calculated reasoning from Sasuke's part.

    Quote Quote:
    He used Chidori 3 times and used the fire only to setup Kirin.
    Well that puts the count at 3-2 (Lightning-Fire).
    And if you consider that Sasuke's opponent was Itachi... Using Fire jutsu without the right opportunity could easily turn the tables to Itachi's favor.
    ~Elemental Manipulation at its Best~

  4. #19
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Neuroff's Avatar
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    Re: Secondary Elements Explanation

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkManSharingan32 View Post
    He used Gokakyuu against Itachi remember...
    There was a huge clash to which Itachi used Amaterasu to counter.
    So he's used fire jutsu with intent to damage his opponent once, and lightning dozens of times.

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkManSharingan32 View Post
    He knew they were essentially Earth Element attacks since he states he saw the Earth Seal... He just wasn't sure his Electricity was the reason the bombs did not detonate. (Of course he didn't know BEFORE fighting. Be once Deidara used his jutsu ONCE... he was clued in)

    http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/361/13/

    Actually, no offense intended... Just re-read that entire chapter without a Bias... and you see that there was no accident. Only calculated reasoning from Sasuke's part.
    I guess that could be what happened, haven't bothered re-reading that fight. The thing is, if fire were actually Sasuke's best element he wouldn't need to always be going around trying to Chidori people in the chest. You would think he would have a fire finisher, but every time Sasuke is trying to finish someone off, he falls back to lightning.

    EDIT: I guess I don't have to re-read the fight after all, ornis just proved that Sasuke really did figure it out on accident.

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkManSharingan32 View Post
    Well that puts the count at 3-2 (Lightning-Fire).
    And if you consider that Sasuke's opponent was Itachi... Using Fire jutsu without the right opportunity could easily turn the tables to Itachi's favor.
    Yeah, if you don't count Kirin. I actually missed another Chidori, so make it 5. Not to mention Gouryuuka was only used to setup Kirin.
    Last edited by Neuroff; April 30, 2008 at 02:24 PM.

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    Re: Secondary Elements Explanation

    http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/356/11/

    That's the start of Deidara v. Sasuke. Sasuke doesn't see a specifically Doton-based handseal.

    Next phase:

    http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/357/10/

    Deidara first uses no handseals.

    Then, to arm his bombs, Deidara uses another not specifically Doton-based handseal:

    http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/357/11/

    And Sasuke, by the same link, reacts with Raiton. Out of reflex. Just by countering with Raiton, based on no premise but to defend against Deidara's attack, Sasuke reacts. Then, Sasuke comes up with a theory:

    http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/361/15/
    http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/361/16/

    Neuroff is right.

  6. #21
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member DarkManSharingan32's Avatar
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    Re: Secondary Elements Explanation

    Quote Originally Posted by Neuroff View Post
    So he's used fire jutsu with intent to damage his opponent once, and lightning dozens of times.
    Maybe so... But that really doesn't mean he has the affinity for Lightning. I just see that there were more opportunities for his Lightning Attacks... especially up against a lightning elemental like Deidara.

    I contend Sasuke uses the techniques that get the most effect.

    Analyzing Sasuke.. what would you think Sasuke would do against a known Wind-Elemental Ninja?


    Quote Quote:
    I guess that was what happened, haven't bothered re-reading that fight. The thing is, if fire were actually Sasuke's best element he wouldn't need to always be going around trying to Chidori people in the chest. You would think he would have a fire finisher, but every time Sasuke is trying to finish someone off, he falls back to lightning.
    Chidori has been Sasuke's finisher pretty much the entire series...
    And until we figure out what jutsu Sasuke was going to use on Naruto & Co... we should reserve the thought that he doesn't possess a Fire Element Finisher.

    (I believe Sasuke developed Kirin specifically for Itachi... To judge/execute his brother for his crimes.)


    Quote Quote:
    Yeah, if you don't count Kirin. I actually missed another Chidori, so make it 5. Not to mention Gouryuuka was only used to setup Kirin.
    Well after re-reading those chapters..
    Turns out Chidori Nagashi, and the Chidori Ken were both used IN Genjutsu.

    Zetsu remarks that they both didn't even move... so no techniques were used.
    http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/385/15/

    But thats a technicality anyways.
    I still contend he uses his Lightning situationally since it's better adapted to be used for Utility than Fire jutsu.


    Quote Originally Posted by ornis View Post
    http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/356/11/

    That's the start of Deidara v. Sasuke. Sasuke doesn't see a specifically Doton-based handseal.

    Next phase:

    http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/357/10/

    Deidara first uses no handseals.

    Then, to arm his bombs, Deidara uses another not specifically Doton-based handseal:

    http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/357/11/

    And Sasuke, by the same link, reacts with Raiton. Out of reflex. Just by countering with Raiton, based on no premise but to defend against Deidara's attack, Sasuke reacts. Then, Sasuke comes up with a theory:

    http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/361/15/
    http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/361/16/

    Neuroff is right.
    If you look at the way that Deidara creates his clay... You can look at that as just a modification of the Earth Seal.

    I mean, there IS a precedent for it with Shikamaru and the Nara Clan using variations for the Rat seal for their Shadow jutsu.

    I mean Sasuke DOES make reference to a Earth Seal... and Deidara does not refute it.

    I hate to assume plot holes. lol
    Last edited by DarkManSharingan32; April 30, 2008 at 02:29 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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  7. #22
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Ken-Oh's Avatar
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    Re: Secondary Elements Explanation

    Your right that Sauske's most developed element is lightning but that still does not warrant it being his natural affinity. You may be right but until i see evidence otherwise i'm sticking with fire as his natural affinity. If we compare what fire Jutsu we have seen to the lightning Jutsu Sauske has developed himself we can see why he would "choose" to use lightning over fire. To be perfectly honest lightning seems to be the most destructive element plain and simple, its only real purpose is offense. Even Kakuzu's combination of probably the highest level wind and fire jutsu was easily dodged. Sauske's lightning Justu are quicker and more destructive, after aquiring lightning as an additional element why would he continue to develop his fire Jutsu when he has a faster, more potent weapon in his arsenal waiting to be developed. I'm not disputing lightning is now Sauske's primary combat element, i'm saying that just because he uses it the most does not make it his affinity. Lightning is a skill Sauske has aquired and pushed to it's limits, fire was just the stepping stone. To those who use Sauske having difficulty learning Gokakyuu no Jutsu as a "child" i have one thing to say, learning that Jutsu was a right of passage and signified a child becoming an adult in the eyes of the Uchiha. He was still extremely young when he learned the Jutsu, Kakashi notes that he should not have had the chakra to perform that Jutsu at his age during the bell test. You are just comparing him to Itachi without thinking it through.

  8. #23
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    Re: Secondary Elements Explanation

    Consider Neuroff's comment

    Quote Originally Posted by Neuroff
    You would think he would have a fire finisher, but every time Sasuke is trying to finish someone off, he falls back to lightning.
    Just take it in this context: what began Kirin? What finished it? And is it not the most incredible feat in Sasuke's repertoire that we have witnessed?

    The answer is the point of Kirin: two doses of the Great Dragon Fire (Katon: Gouryuuka) were used as slaves to Kirin's effect. In that instance, Sasuke would've reduced his natural affinity to a service for Kirin, a tech that surpasses the known pre-Kirin extents of elemental/qualitative manipulation, because Sasuke also employed nature to make Kirin. But as someone stated before, Katon was forced out of Sasuke. As boy looking to bear the family crest, he struggled to master what he never did naturally. Sasuke's genius didn't have him muster up his Katon ability. Sasuke's hard work gave him the leverage to do Katon.

    But, lightning appears to be Sasuke's natural elemental affinity. Even if he didn't start out with it, he uses it instinctively, and he has developed a Raiton attack that is dependent on Katon, from what we know--but the Katon still serves to make an overall attack complete.

    When it comes to what Sasuke has done with Kirin, which is unlike anything Zetsu knew of before, Sasuke's fire balls just help to fuel that Raiton skill. Simply, the service ends with Sasuke's aim--the result that is Kirin.

    Effectively, Katon is as good as a incredible seal in creating Kirin. It's a supplement to Kirin.
    Last edited by ornis; April 30, 2008 at 02:37 PM.

  9. #24
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Neuroff's Avatar
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    Re: Secondary Elements Explanation

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkManSharingan32 View Post
    Maybe so... But that really doesn't mean he has the affinity for Lightning. I just see that there were more opportunities for his Lightning Attacks... especially up against a lightning elemental like Deidara.

    I contend Sasuke uses the techniques that get the most effect.

    Analyzing Sasuke.. what would you think Sasuke would do against a known Wind-Elemental Ninja?
    Look at ornis' proof that Sasuke actually did just default to lightning against Deidara. If his strongest element were fire, you would think he would start off with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkManSharingan32 View Post
    Chidori has been Sasuke's finisher pretty much the entire series...
    And until we figure out what jutsu Sasuke was going to use on Naruto & Co... we should reserve the thought that he doesn't possess a Fire Element Finisher.

    (I believe Sasuke developed Kirin specifically for Itachi... To judge/execute his brother for his crimes.)
    So your only argument for fire being Sasuke's strongest element is that he might have some mystery fire jutsu that he hasn't shown. The fact is that all the evidence points to Sasuke's strongest element being lightning.

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkManSharingan32 View Post
    Well after re-reading those chapters..
    Turns out Chidori Nagashi, and the Chidori Ken were both used IN Genjutsu.

    Zetsu remarks that they both didn't even move... so no techniques were used.
    http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/385/15/
    The key is that Sasuke is still trying to use lightning jutsu. Whether they actually happened or not, Sasuke TRIED to use it.

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkManSharingan32 View Post
    But thats a technicality anyways.
    I still contend he uses his Lightning situationally since it's better adapted to be used for Utility than Fire jutsu.
    He doesn't just use lightning situationally, he uses it constantly.

  10. #25
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted KnuckleheadedNinja's Avatar
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    Re: Secondary Elements Explanation

    i think kakashi elements should be lightning and earth, not lightning and water.

    "Too much hope is the opposite of despair... an overpowering love may consume you in the end."

  11. #26
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member DarkManSharingan32's Avatar
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    Re: Secondary Elements Explanation

    SO let me see.
    The argument is:

    What ever jutsu you use most, is what your affinity is.

    Regardless of elemental weaknesses and strategy.
    ---

    Let's also disregard sasuke's explanation as non-sense... even though it's the ONLY piece of Canon evidence actually provided? As well as any "falsities" which you guys have found... still unchecked by Deidara?
    ---

    Uchiha have natural Fire Jutsu Affinities.
    Sasuke = Uchiha.

    Lightning is easier to manipulate, and therefore is more than just pure offense/defense (unlike Fire).

    What did you guys want him to do... Shoot a huge fire attack at BOMBS? lol
    Also... he used his Raiton Needles because there were multiple things to attack at once.

    Katon Housenka in that situation would have taken Handseals... AND since its just a barrage of mini-fireballs, there chance stands that they wouldnt all be stopped.
    Last edited by DarkManSharingan32; April 30, 2008 at 02:55 PM.
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    Re: Secondary Elements Explanation

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkManSharingan32 View Post
    If you look at the way that Deidara creates his clay... You can look at that as just a modification of the Earth Seal.
    Deidara stuck his hand in bags of clay, and that event is not witnessed by Sasuke in the link I provide.

    Quote Quote:
    I mean, there IS a precedent for it with Shikamaru and the Nara Clan using variations for the Rat seal for their Shadow jutsu.
    This means that the precedent for Deidara's arming seal can be assumed to be related to Doton abilities?

    Quote Quote:
    I mean Sasuke DOES make reference to a Earth Seal... and Deidara does not refute it.
    The reference...

    http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/361/13/ (cite: Panel 4)

    ...does not comply with the seal that Sasuke first witnesses. His deduction, "All your techniques use earth based seals," is therefore a generality. The charging of clay may involve Raiton, and that means all of Deidara's techniques may use Doton-based seals in the context of the battle, but they may also involve Raiton-based seals. Though, I won't counter his generality with a generality. Sasuke's just working on a reference there to make a broad statement.

  13. #28
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member DarkManSharingan32's Avatar
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    Re: Secondary Elements Explanation

    Quote Originally Posted by KnuckleheadedNinja View Post
    i think kakashi elements should be lightning and earth, not lightning and water.
    That can be argued...
    But I think we need to see more Earth Element jutsu form Kakashi first.

    A link was posted already... but Kakashi did pull off a pretty amazing water jutsu with no water source.
    ~Elemental Manipulation at its Best~

  14. #29
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted KnuckleheadedNinja's Avatar
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    Re: Secondary Elements Explanation

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkManSharingan32 View Post
    That can be argued...
    But I think we need to see more Earth Element jutsu form Kakashi first.

    A link was posted already... but Kakashi did pull off a pretty amazing water jutsu with no water source.
    he have done more earth jutsu than water.

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  15. #30
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Ken-Oh's Avatar
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    Re: Secondary Elements Explanation

    DarkManSharingan32 is right your only argument is that he uses lightning more than fire, in fairness he uses them at a higher level than fire as well but this does not provide evidence for it being his affinity. Lightning is not only more versitile and destructive but through the use of natural lightning it allows Sauske to utilize more lightning than a ninja can produce with there own chakra. Not only that its speed is greater than that of chakra based lightning. Sauske "chose" to push this element to its limits because he is a genius ninja and seen the potential it had for him. The reason he has not developed fir Jutsu further is that they are essentialy a redundant part of his arsenal and only warrant use against other fire Jutsu or potential wind Jutsu.

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