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First of all, hi everybody! I'm new around these forums so if I do anything stupid don't fault me too much for it.
Anyway, I've been looking at some of the spoiler discussions around here for a while and there seems to be an awful lot of talk about Hitsugaya's seemingly absurd power growth. A LOT of talk. Like enough to fill several threads with. So, I thought I'd make a little place for you guys to discuss what you thought about these new revelations without crowding up the chapter discussion boards.
So to start off, I'd just like to say that I was originally a fan of Hitsugaya. His personality is pretty similar to mine and I identified with his predicament of being surrounded by utter idiots at all times.
That said, the last few chapters have crossed the line for me in terms of powering up this popular character. (Warning: to those of you who are planning to use the "Bleach has no logic" argument, I agree with you but you need not apply for this discussion)
I've seen both the arguments for and rebuttals against Hitsugaya's apparent lack of power in his former fights and for the most part, I agree with those who say he's a weak captain. I mean really. IIRC he, Renji, and Matsumoto fought Arrancar of similar power, at the same time, under the same circumstances. But whereas Matsumoto escaped with a only few scratches, her captain had to be "rejected" back to life by Orihime. Am I missing something? Isn't a captain supposed to be like 10 times stronger than his vice? Just look at Byakuya and Renji's first appearance. Byakuya clearly out-ranked him. But here, Hitsugaya's fighting on an equal or even lower level than two vice-captains. And you're (kubo) telling me that this kid can keep up with much less take down a top espada? No F***ING WAY. As much as I liked him as a character (less and less now that he's getting arrogant against a FRICKEN ESPADA!!) he just shouldn't be this powerful. And yes, I understand that he's a genius and that he's got the best ice zanpakuto or whatever but this kid was matching a released top level espada with an INCOMPLETE bankai. And now he has a second release?
I would have been fine if he had struggled and nearly died at first, only to power-up and kill her. THAT would have at least shown some development in his character to see him pushed to a new limit. But no, he just pulls trick after trick to escape from her attacks and now he's releasing "powers from the heavens?" WTF?
Anyway...that's my rant. Now let's hear you guy's.
Hey welcome to the forums! ^_^ Glad ot see you're taking initiative to start a discussion
Unfortunately, there's a rule about talking about spoilers/a new chapter until the Monday after the chapter's been released(for those who read it late) so I'll close the thread until Monday.
No worries though, it's a very good idea and I'll respond more fully later and I'm sure lots of people will want to talk about it
Thread is now open ~igotthegoods
Last edited by igotthegoods; May 25, 2009 at 12:03 AM.
Where I'm trying to get is that...every captains (well...most of them xD) must have train a lot in SS when they discovered Aizen goal. They knew what kind of guy he is and they also knew what kind of army he is building (well...Hitsugaya knew about the espada and vasto lordes so...xD) By having all this knowledge...during the time that Ichigo was preparing to live to HM...they must have been training like hell to become stronger. So now...seeing a captan at a hole different level then before is just normal. It is the same with Ichigo or Ishida or Chad...they all train to become stronger, just to be able to match with Aizen army. Meaning that, Hitsugaya power-up is understandable.
All character (well most of them :P ) has to grow. I really don't think that Ukitake is the same Ukitake that he was 100 years ago...same for Unohana and Shunsui. With time passing, you become stronger by training....and this is normal...it is not a dumb power up (like someone who's on the merge of dying and suddenly transform into a killing machine).
But then Again...this is my point of view of an army in bleach...and my perception of the "intelligence" bleach head quarters have xD.
Now Hitsugaya has gaining a better control over with his Zanpakuto. He is using Hyourinmaru more wisely and this is what I like. And plus, he is not gaining power from nowhere...he did explain that the technique he is about to use a technique he had a long time ago but that he simply didn't used it in battle (maybe because it was to strong for him...wtv :P) This is not a second release...it is only a new technique for us...but an old one for him. Same as Kenpachi with Kendo (and this was surely not a power up).
And speaking about him beeing arrogant...well, this is part of his character. The same for Omaeda beeing a hell of a coward...or for Ikkaku beeing stubborn as ever with not using is Bankai...or Shunsui beeing lazy as hell...this is what we call personality. You might hate him for that...but this is how he was build and you have to accept it :P.
You can't underestimage a captain. Yama-jii (I really like in the anime when Shunsui call him like that is not someone who would've let his man getting killed. He wouldn't let someone of his side fight another person knowing that he would get defeated. At the moment SS is right now...they need all the man they can to defeat Aizen and his crew. And plus...beeing a captain means you are in the top fighters of ALL soul society. This is not something that should be taking lightly. Yamamoto (again..my perception of bleach...no real fact from the manga so please do not attack me :P) must have seen something special with the kid (Just like Aizen saw something with Gin). He must've felt that the little man has a lot of potential...and that he would be a trusting fighter, and now, you're seeing the potential of the man. We are now seeing why Hitsugaya is called a genius...and why he is a captain at his age.
Bottom line, we have to stop underestimage this captain and saying that he his freaking weak because of his past fight. It is normal for a fighter to be growing and trying to be stronger.....either way why would he be fighting. Not everybody win their fight...there is some times when you get beaten. But when that happen, you need to find a way to become stronger, to be able to beat the guy who beat you...and this is what is happening with Histugaya. He saw the power of Aizen army and he realise that he wasn't strong enough. So he decide to train (again, again I'm repeating....my perception xD) to become stronger. This is how he got his power-up. Getting stronger by training his normal. Ichigo got stronger by training like hell with Yoruichi...that's why he was able to defeat Byakuya. Ichigo got his ass own by Grimmjow and decide to get stronger by controlling is Hollow...again training. The same thing for Hitsu. Getting you ass whoop...realise it and find a way to become stronger.
Anyway: I enjoyed posting and I HOPE that people will write constructive arguments...and not things like: man he must loose...or like: he is winning because he has the most fans
Hitsugaya isn't winning because of the fans. However, his performance against Halibel is explainable by many factors.
Hitsugaya is staying far away from Halibel.
We've seen that at close/medium range, Halibel can easily outmaneuver and overpower Hitsugaya(easily "cutting him" in half) and she was already going toe to toe with his Bankai prior to release. As noted by Hitsugaya himself, it'd foolish(aka bad/fatal) for him to get within Halibel's range so ever since, he's been staying outside her close/medium range. All they've been doing basically since is exchanging long range attacks.
Hitsugaya has an elemental affinity to fit with Halibel.
Hitsugaya can basically render Halibel's long range attacks against him near ineffective and use them against her.
This, combined with the other point make it so that he can stand up to her. Both of these factors simultaneously coming into play are what allow him to stand against her and threaten her.
Without these, he'd have been gone a long time ago. If he were within close range, no amount of ice would've aided him and had he not had his ice powers, Halibel's water would've gotten him already.
Really he's not getting that much stronger, it's a Deus Ex Machina that he's faced with the one Espada he could do well against(amongst the top 3 that is).
The "heaven thing' he announced at the end of the chapter didn't really bother me. He states he never tried it in Bankai so he's kind of winging it anyways. Besides, its' not new, Hitsugaya already stated against Luppi that he can use all the water in the atmosphere as his weapon if he wants.
With that said, I do think this does show that he isn't as strong as the other captains. I suppose even with his power restricted (and everyone else having the same restrictions), he should still be more powerful than Matsumoto, Renji, and Ikkaku.
In his fight with Luppi....I don't recall Hitsugaya taking that much damage. He was caught off guard when Luppi released, but he came back and performed a powerful technique.
Which failed to do away with Luppi....lol. So, yeah, Hitsugaya very obviously is not the strongest captain.
And what's this about Hitsugaya having a second release? He has a shikai and a bankai....
When it comes to Halibel vs. Hitsugaya, Forever_Melody pretty much said it all.
Aside from all that....
This week's chapter was good because we saw a new attack from Hitsugaya (and from Halibel, too). I'm excited for whatever Hitsugaya's about to do. The artwork recently has been really nice so it should be fantastic.
I can't believe how people try to explain Hitsugaya's leap in strength.
There was no training which could have made Hitsugaya that much stronger in less than a week. Luppi may have caught him by surprise, but considering how Hitsugaya is performing now, he could have beaten him without relying on setting a trap for him.
It's like Kubo planned to make Espada a lot stronger, than changed his mind to shorten the story. Causing several plot holes, like Espada #4 being stronger than Espada #3, or Hitsugaya using the ice clone without a reason, since he later demonstrates that he can defend form and avoid attacks without much problem.
I'd like to see some consistency in Bleach.
No...apparently it's new for him too.Quote:
And sorry, I think I must have misread the thing he said about his "bankai mode." I guess I just skipped over the "in". Still, my point stands about him unleashing new technique after new technique. How many has he got now, like 7? And there's no telling what gonna happen when his petals disappear...if that somehow makes him stronger I'm gonna really pissed.
But that's the problem. He shouldn't be able to keep his distance if she is as powerful as she was hyped up to be. Remember how quickly Ulquiorra closed in on Ichigo? If she is indeed more powerful, there should be no such thing as "long range" for her.Quote:
I didn't mean that he shouldn't have used those tricks. But based on his track record (and I know, so don't even say I can't use past battles because that's the only we got) he shouldn't even have any of those tricks left or at least they shouldn't work on the 3rd Espada. He's like the new Mayuri.Quote:
I don't think hitsugaya was ever as weak as people make him out to be. I have wrote about this in the discussion thread but since now there is a thread for it, I will write it here also.
In the fight against shaolong hitsugaya had a limiter or, it reduced his power to a 20% of his total capacity. Because of that, shaolong was able to get the upperhand in the fight and give hitsugaya a beating. Later on the limit was released and hitsugaya finished shaolong in about half a second easily with reasonably flashy attack. Not to mention shaolong was on the run at this moment which means hitsugaya easily caught up to him at the time. Now, we all saw how hitsugaya fell unconscious and had his bankai disappear after he dealt the finishing blow. That suggest he was actually on the verge of death. That means that a half dead hitsugaya was strong enough to easily and instantly deal a killing blow on shaolong when he released the limit. Not screaming weakling IMO.
Against luppi, hitsugaya barely fought at all. All luppi did was this:
People usually use that to say hitsu was weak but yet, here we see hitsu like this:
Hitsugaya just appeared out of nowhere after taking his time in securing his oponents defeat. Not to mention he appears without a scratch on him which means the only hit luppi apparently got on him was completely ineffective. This fight also does not scream weak. All in all, this fight should not be used to say hitsugaya is weak considering we never saw how he would fare in a direct confrontation with luppi.
And finally, against halibel. I don't really think hitsugaya has as much reiatsu, speed or strength as halibel but there are a few factors that have helped him. For one thing he has the power to cancel harribels attacks with his own ice and harribel can also negate hitsu's attacks by melting them. This essentially means each of their best weapons are useless against each other. Also, hitsu has avoided melee combat since she released. In any case hitsugaya has at least enough power to avoid long range combat(that does not mean he can keep up with her speed though).
My take on the battle is that the one who shows greater control over water will win. Hitsugaya has IMO greater innate control over it but harribel can make up for that with the difference in reiatsu. In any case, hitsu is apparently going to throw heaven itself to harribel and there is a good chance harribel can throw it back.
Although I've read some good explanations about how Hitsugaya has managed to hold his own against Halibel, I still don't feel convinced. I just feel that Kubo really did mess up here. Hitsugaya standing up against Halibel has left a bad taste in my mouth, which I believe will only go away if Halibel beats him. This is what I like about One Piece, its the most consistent Shounen amongst the top three (Naruto, Bleach & OP).
I'm sure everyone knows Hitsugaya has always been at the top of popularity polls! I cant help but feel that this fight and recent Hitsugaya hype is just fan service.
Even though there is a lot of good explanations, it still hard too swallow that Hitsugaya can keep up with Halibel. At least it doesn't seem like such a big stretch anymore, though.
At most I see Hitsugaya being around an unreleased Grimmjaw's or Nnoitora's level. This match-up isn't that bad in light of everything that has been said and Hitsugaya hasn't actually won yet.
But Hitsugaya hasn't even shown any weakness against Harribel. Soi Fon, who's just as proud as he is, is getting the sh*t scared out of her by Barragan. Meanwhile, this little kid is somehow managing to keep his cool and is, in fact, bragging about how great he is to his much more powerful opponent's face. It makes no sense. I absolutely hate Soi Fon's personality. But frankly, I rather see her win now than Hitsugaya (though not by much).
And it's not just him I'm disappointed in either. My respect for a whole bunch of characters went down a little bit since the start of this battle. Ikkaku let a pillar be destroyed because of his secret, Yumichika would have done the same if not for his tremendous stroke of luck, and Ukitake's playing around with Stark's little fraccion. Is nobody taking this war seriously?
Thank god for Shunsui, Kira, Hisagi and some of the other people who understand what they have to do in a war-zone. When Shunsui refused Stark's invitation to do nothing until the other battles were over, I instantly respected the guy twice as much. In fact, if Yamamoto dies like a lot of people are predicting, I'd bet he'll be the next Captain-Commander.
@ki0:Frankly, I can't imagine Hitsugaya fighting evenly against those two wild beasts.
There isn't any leap in strength... Hitsugaya is the same as he ever was. I don't see how people assume he got stronger. He showed nothing really that different than he did before(i.e. ice ice and more ice).
He just happened to be put up against the one arrancar he might've possibly be able to do half decently against and he's playing it safe against her since she's still better than him.
Halibel is still stronger than Hitsugaya by miles. Hitsugaya is lucky because of the 2 factors I've said. As for his attitude, I can't comment honestly, He'll probably have that same stricken look once the nice attack he's preparing backfires or ends up useless(he DID say that one was most vulnerable during one's best attack did he not?)
Look at what Renji has to say about the Gentei Kaijyo.
"This is bad...! I was lucky that he was surprised by the Seal Removal and let his guard down. If we had both fought at full strength from the start...It's hard to say how thing would've turned out..."
I believe Renji and Hitsugaya are close enough in ability to compare them:
1. The both have incomplete Bankais.
2. Hitsugaya's still young and near the bottom of the Captain roster in power, Renji's a Lieutenant.
3. They probably have about the same amount of experience in combat.
Like this page says, Grimmjow's Fraccion were surprised by the Gentei Kaijyo. I don't think they would've fallen so easily if they had been fighting at full-strength from the get-go. If they had this much trouble with a Fraccion, how is it that even with a couple of months of training that Hitsugaya could gain enough strength and skill to best the Tercera Espada? How would he fair against Ulquiorra? How 'bout Nnoitra? Grimmjow? You see where I'm going? You could bring up that they have different battle styles and abilities than Harribel does, but if Hitsugaya wouldn't be able to beat the Sexta, then how is it that he would be able to take down the Tercera?
I have always compared Hitsugaya to Ishida, neither character have ever really appealed to me but they seem to have very similar fighting styles. Neither appear remarkably strong, they always seem to get beat down, but more often than not they will prevail because they have fought using their tactical skills, which I beleive to be their strongest assets. If Hitsugaya wins this battle, it will not be because he is stronger than Harribel, it will be because he uses his tactical skills to his advantage.
Hitsugaya's matchup versus Harribel has seemed unbalanced because of the huge anticipation of the top 3 Espada releases and their expected powers. I wonder, if we hadn't seen Hitsugaya fight since his battle with Gin, would we still be complaining about this matchup? Something tells me no.