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Thread: Bleach -100 Discussion

  1. #151
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Darek Khort's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach -100 Discussion / -99 Predictions

    @wrstljr - Most likely he stayed that long to search for the Hougyoku. Urahara hid it. He wanted to find it.
    He then worked out that Rukia most likely had it in her. He researched some more. Found out the technique for taking out the Hougyoku from Rukia's body; then set his plan in motion. Execution/etc.


    0----
    I agree with those who believe Aizen will leave, Tessai will restrain everyone and Urahara will take them back to his lab. Also, Urahara has already been testing out his untraceable gigai as mentioned in a previous chapter. He'll probably complete or has already completed the gigai and will use it on the Vizards.

    ---

    Also about the Hougyoku and about Aizen smiling after Orihime thought about rejecting the Hougyoku. I suddenly had this odd feeling that perhaps Aizen wants her to reject it. Reject the existence of the Hougyoku. (why else would Aizen show it to her? )
    Perhaps the Hougyoku used to be something else. Rejecting the Hougyoku would turn it back into what it used to be. Perhaps its former self was more powerful than in its current state but was made into its current state because Urahara tried supressing its power. (just like rejecting Grimm's loss of an arm brings back its original state; an arm)

    Sounds crazy but it seems plausible in my opinion.
    Last edited by Darek Khort; June 03, 2008 at 05:25 AM.

  2. #152
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Silhouette's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach -100 Discussion / -99 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by wrstljr View Post
    So I guess the real question is

    Why did Aizen stay in SS over the last 100 years? To what end did it benefit him by remaining a captain and getting Tousen and Gin promoted as well? Couldn't he have just done exactly what he did 100 years later in the first place?
    Before leaving SS, Aizen said that he was leaving because there was nothing more for him to achieve there. So I guess he wasn't as knowledgeable or powerful back then as he is know or maybe he was still working on ruling HM. In other words, Aizen didn't stay in SS because he needed to but because HM wasn't ready for him to rule yet (e.g. contacting strong hollows, still working on arrancars...etc)
    ------------------------------

    Do you guys remember when Nnoitra wondered how many years it's been since he broke Nel's mask?
    Since Aizen got hold of the Hogyouku recently, Nnoitra's statement seemed inaccurate and it was thought that it's because the time in HM passes faster than in the real world. This maybe true but if Aizen knew how to turn shinigamis into hollows 100 years ago then maybe he was able to make arrancars as well!!

    Anyway, I think the method that Aizen used to turn shinigamis into hollows was known to SS but it was forbidden. the reason I think so is because vizards were accused of using forbidden methods to gain hollow powers, right? this implies that SS had such knowledge but it was prohibited.


    One last thing, if anyone can read Japanese then please translate the title of the book held by Nanao in pg 4.
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  3. #153
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member rocklee87's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach -100 Discussion / -99 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Silhouette View Post
    Do you guys remember when Nnoitra wondered how many years it's been since he broke Nel's mask?
    Since Aizen got hold of the Hogyouku recently, Nnoitra's statement seemed inaccurate and it was thought that it's because the time in HM passes faster than in the real world. This maybe true but if Aizen knew how to turn shinigamis into hollows 100 years ago then maybe he was able to make arrancars as well!!

    Anyway, I think the method that Aizen used to turn shinigamis into hollows was known to SS but it was forbidden. the reason I think so is because vizards were accused of using forbidden methods to gain hollow powers, right? this implies that SS had such knowledge but it was prohibited.


    One last thing, if anyone can read Japanese then please translate the title of the book held by Nanao in pg 4.
    I thought about that for a while and I think Aizen was turning hollows into vastolards before he left SS, thats how he gained control of the menos aswell (promise of becoming stronger) he just wanted the houk- the thing Urahara hid in Rukia, to speed the process up

  4. #154
    MH Senpai 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity patedecarne's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach -100 Discussion / -99 Predictions

    Well, SS is more smart than meets the eye, probably it knows a lot more than we think.

    thinking about it, to know the method about the transformation implies that in some point, SS witnessed some tranformation, but I don't think that could had existed some vaizard before Shinji and co;

    one possibility is that Aizen leaked the information purposely, but the reason is unknown to me;

    Besides, we have Hiyori's factor, she became a hollow without any contact with Aizen's methods, at least we couldn't see it so far.

    Probably by the gaiden time, Aizen already knew about to hollowfication process, but wait until the present because of Hougyoku;

    by the way, how did he knew about it? the last change to see something about Hougyoku could be in a likely meeting with Urahara in the upcoming chapter..

  5. #155
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    Re: Bleach -100 Discussion / -99 Predictions

    I don't think that SS had prior knowledge about hollowfication of shinigami. Everyone seemed genuinely alarmed and surprised by the turn of events. Unohana only had a theory about what was happening (and she was partially correct). I am sure if Yamamoto had known what was happening that he would not have just sent the ninth division and then several captains and lieutenants go into the situation so unprepared, as he probably did not want to lose so many important shinigami.

    Aizen will either learn about the Hougyoku through a discussion with Urahara (Urahara might confide in him since he interacted with Shinji and Aizen so much and might feel that Aizen would care), through spying on Urahara (his shikai is the perfect cover for this), or through going through Urahara's files once Urahara has left (Urahara flees in escape leaving some sort of record about the Hougyoku, which catches Aizen's interest).

  6. #156
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Silhouette's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach -100 Discussion / -99 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by rocklee87 View Post
    I thought about that for a while and I think Aizen was turning hollows into vastolards before he left SS, thats how he gained control of the menos aswell (promise of becoming stronger) he just wanted the houk- the thing Urahara hid in Rukia, to speed the process up
    Yes. I think that the Hogyouku does more than speed up the process though. I think it gives arrancars solid bodies/steel skin...like how Nnoitra said to Nel that his powers increased a lot since he broke her mask..by the Hogyouku maybe !!

    Quote Originally Posted by patedecarne View Post
    Well, SS is more smart than meets the eye, probably it knows a lot more than we think.

    thinking about it, to know the method about the transformation implies that in some point, SS witnessed some tranformation, but I don't think that could had existed some vaizard before Shinji and co;

    one possibility is that Aizen leaked the information purposely, but the reason is unknown to me;

    Besides, we have Hiyori's factor, she became a hollow without any contact with Aizen's methods, at least we couldn't see it so far.

    Probably by the gaiden time, Aizen already knew about to hollowfication process, but wait until the present because of Hougyoku;

    by the way, how did he knew about it? the last change to see something about Hougyoku could be in a likely meeting with Urahara in the upcoming chapter..
    I don't think the Hogyouku was invented by then yet. There isn't even a hint of it so far and maybe our knowledge of its existence is leading our train of thoughts. I am thinking that Urahara invented to Hoqyouku to "cure" the vizards later...maybe.
    i mean, why did Urahara make the Hogyouku in the first place? Urahara cared about the disappearing shinigamis and made that special gigai because he thought that their spirits were not able to stay intact so most likely he created the Hogyouku to help those who turned into hollows.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tsukisama View Post
    I don't think that SS had prior knowledge about hollowfication of shinigami. Everyone seemed genuinely alarmed and surprised by the turn of events. Unohana only had a theory about what was happening (and she was partially correct). I am sure if Yamamoto had known what was happening that he would not have just sent the ninth division and then several captains and lieutenants go into the situation so unprepared, as he probably did not want to lose so many important shinigami.
    Yes they were genuinely concerned but they didn't know what was happening, were they? As far as Yama-jii knew, people were disappearing not turning into a hollow. And there could be different reasons behind the disappearance, Urahara for example, took what Unahan said and had a theory that spirits were just unstable therefore he made the special gigai. So far in the gaiden, SS doesn't know that some shinigamis turned hollow and it wouldn't connect that to known forbidden and most likely hidden methods .
    If Aizen was able to find about something as secretive and forbidden as the King's key then why not the hollowfication method? SS does have its secrets after all.
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  7. #157
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    Re: Bleach -100 Discussion / -99 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Silhouette View Post
    Yes they were genuinely concerned but they didn't know what was happening, were they? As far as Yama-jii knew, people were disappearing not turning into a hollow. And there could be different reasons behind the disappearance, Urahara for example, took what Unahan said and had a theory that spirits were just unstable therefore he made the special gigai. So far in the gaiden, SS doesn't know that some shinigamis turned hollow and it wouldn't connect that to known forbidden and most likely hidden methods .
    If Aizen was able to find about something as secretive and forbidden as the King's key then why not the hollowfication method? SS does have its secrets after all.
    If SS had conducted experiments in the past concerning hollowfication, then someone might have recognized these symptoms before. SS seemed to not know at all what was going on. Thus, I think that what Aizen was doing at the time was original research.

    Creating the Ouken is something classified and forbidden but was known to be done by SS before for a good reason. There is no clearly conceivable good reason for experimenting with shinigami becoming hollows, which is probably why when SS finds out what has become the vizards it will likely be labeled as forbidden techniques. I wonder if anyone in SS before Aizen even toyed around idea of messing around with the shinigami's soul and becoming a hollow. (Someone conceiving the idea of maybe doing something to integrate a shinigami's soul with a hollow or something of that nature may have been conjectured in the past, but given SS's ignorance of what was going on, I doubt that the ideas were ever tested or put into practice.)
    Last edited by Tsukisama; June 03, 2008 at 11:14 AM.

  8. #158
    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner trigonoah's Avatar
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    Green Grin Re: Bleach -100 Discussion / -99 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Silhouette View Post
    Yes I am thinking that Urahara invented to Hoqyouku to "cure" the vizards later...maybe.
    i mean, why did Urahara make the Hogyouku in the first place? Urahara cared about the disappearing shinigamis and made that special gigai because he thought that their spirits were not able to stay intact so most likely he created the Hogyouku to help those who turned into hollows.
    crap. you mentioned the theory before i had a chance too. here's my theory on why the Hogyouku was created, why Aizen may have stayed in soul society for the extra 100 years, etc:

    Urahara finds out that the captains and lieutenants get turned into vaizards (not sure whether he'll know who's responsible). In a quest to remedy the vaizards, on top of the guilt he feels for sending Hiyori out that night instead of going himself, Urahara sets out to create a device that can turn a hollow into a Shinigami to reverse the process. After figuring out that the vaizards were able to suppress their hollows and return to shinigami form, Urahara sets out to destroy the Hogyouku since it isn't needed anymore and to prevent it from falling into the wrong hands (in this case, Aizen). Somewhere along the line stuff happens.... the vaizards, Urahara, Tessai, and Yoruichi all leave SS. Aizen, satisfied that he can turn a shinigami into a hollow, begins experimenting on hollows for the next 60+ years to see if he can do the same (in the meanwhile him, Tousen, and Gin continue to get stronger and climb in the ranks). After countless attempts, he is unsuccessful. Having some hint that Urahara created a device that can turn a hollow into a shinigami, Aizen looks more in depth into where Urahara hid it. It isn't until Rukia goes to Earth and meets Urahara for the first time (i.e. around the start of the series) that he realizes where it is and we get Bleach. Then blah blah blah, Aizen goes od gangsta, removes his glasses and becomes the role model for evil genius.

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  10. #159
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    Re: Bleach -100 Discussion / -99 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by trigonoah View Post
    Urahara finds out that the captains and lieutenants get turned into vaizards (not sure whether he'll know who's responsible). In a quest to remedy the vaizards, on top of the guilt he feels for sending Hiyori out that night instead of going himself, Urahara sets out to create a device that can turn a hollow into a Shinigami to reverse the process. After figuring out that the vaizards were able to suppress their hollows and return to shinigami form, Urahara sets out to destroy the Hogyouku since it isn't needed anymore and to prevent it from falling into the wrong hands (in this case, Aizen). Somewhere along the line stuff happens.... the vaizards, Urahara, Tessai, and Yoruichi all leave SS. Aizen, satisfied that he can turn a shinigami into a hollow, begins experimenting on hollows for the next 60+ years to see if he can do the same (in the meanwhile him, Tousen, and Gin continue to get stronger and climb in the ranks). After countless attempts, he is unsuccessful. Having some hint that Urahara created a device that can turn a hollow into a shinigami, Aizen looks more in depth into where Urahara hid it. It isn't until Rukia goes to Earth and meets Urahara for the first time (i.e. around the start of the series) that he realizes where it is and we get Bleach. Then blah blah blah, Aizen goes od gangsta, removes his glasses and becomes the role model for evil genius.
    Interesting theory.

    The only major thing to which I might object is your statement about Urahara creating the Hougyoku to change the vizards back to normal and then wanting to destroy it after he sees they have returned to their normal forms. I would imagine that creating the Hougyoku would take some considerable time even for Urahara (at least a couple of weeks), whereas the inner battles of the vizards last at most 69 minutes (Hiyori's record).

  11. #160
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member CopyNinjaKakashi's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach -100 Discussion / -99 Predictions

    The way I see it is this:

    Just like when Ichigo was becoming a hollow in the shaft, the vizards will somehow regain control over their hollow side, perhaps with help of Tessai and Urahara, perhaps not. They will then be banished for whatever reason (having hollow powers, etc.).

    It is on earth that they will fight their inner hollow and learn how to increase the duration of the mask. I just don't see a way right now that they know exactly how long it will take. I don't believe any of them are really worried about time at this point. they just wanted to help their friends. It also wouldn't work because we have no idea how long Kensei and Mashiro have been in their hollow forms. This may account for the time needed to create the Hougyoku.

    Just my .02 though.
    "I help those who help themselves."

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  12. #161
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Jammer's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach -100 Discussion / -99 Predictions

    Aizen probably stayed in SS because he needed captain-class access for the library to learn the things he knows now. Urahara maybe finished the hougyoko in order to study the process of vizardification but not to cure it with it - barely to understand it... maybe it was simply a by-product of his experiments... That's why he never used it but probably he also learned that the process was incurable so he gave one of the undetectable gigais to the vizards and set them free >.> Aizen later reads about the orb but doesn't know where to find it, he reads also about the two methods to extract objects from a soul and about the ouken, probably about many other useful things too. After finding the orb and obtaining it he needs nothing else from SS so he leaves with his HM minions.

    And during the tragic night - even if the newly born vizards tell Yama-jii that Aizen was on the scene he actually has a very good alibi - Kyoraku saw him, also the night guard saw him getting to his room with a bunch of books - now that was probably an illusion and that's why Kyoraku was suspicious - he felt something but wasn't sure enough >.> so he is more likely to confirm Aizen's version of the events

    and btw here is Tousen there in the bottom - he's just wearing the mask and some goggles to hide his face.. that sneaky bastard xD

  13. #162
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Silhouette's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach -100 Discussion / -99 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Tsukisama View Post
    If SS had conducted experiments in the past concerning hollowfication, then someone might have recognized these symptoms before. SS seemed to not know at all what was going on. Thus, I think that what Aizen was doing at the time was original research.
    Your argument isn't very solid.
    How did you decide that spirits disappearing was a symptom of turning into a hollow only? One abnormality can have different reasons. Take Rukia for example, how come SS or Unahana didn't scream OMG she's got Hogyouku inside her this is why she lost her shinigami powers. According to your logic, since Unahana knew about the Hougyouku then it should've been a piece of cake to know it was the reason behind Rukia's decline in power. Instead it was believed that she lost her shinigami powers because she gave them up to Ichigo.
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    Re: Bleach -100 Discussion / -99 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Silhouette View Post
    Your argument isn't very solid.
    How did you decide that spirits disappearing was a symptom of turning into a hollow only? One abnormality can have different reasons. Take Rukia for example, how come SS or Unahana didn't scream OMG she's got Hogyouku inside her this is why she lost her shinigami powers. According to your logic, since Unahana knew about the Hougyouku then it should've been a piece of cake to know it was the reason behind Rukia's decline in power. Instead it was believed that she lost her shinigami powers because she gave them up to Ichigo.
    Rukia's powers did not return to her because of Urahara's spiritually draining gigai, not for having the Hougyoku inside of her. We were never shown if SS had any questions about the seemingly abnormal lack of Rukia's powers returning. Neither Unohana nor the rest of SS knew that the Hougyoku was inside of Rukia, and there was no way for them to have known, because having the Hougyoku implanted in Rukia's spiritual body gave no apparent signs.

    We know that souls turning into hollows first break down and then reform as hollow. Urahara stated this when Ichigo was in the second stage of his training in the pit, and now we see in the gaiden where this information was learned. Unohana deduced that the spirits broke down, but she did not know about the part about reforming into hollows.

  15. #164
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Silhouette's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach -100 Discussion / -99 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Tsukisama View Post
    We know that souls turning into hollows first break down and then reform as hollow. Urahara stated this when Ichigo was in the second stage of his training in the pit, and now we see in the gaiden where this information was learned. Unohana deduced that the spirits broke down, but she did not know about the part about reforming into hollows.
    And also according to Unahana, spirits can completely vanish when they are just unstable too. So how did you decide it was a symptom of turning into a hollow only?

    Edit:
    We've seen more than a dozen spirits vanish but only one hollow came out, so not every single spirit that breaks down becomes a hollow and SS must've also seen incidents when people completely disappeared which is what lead Unahana to her conclusion.
    Last edited by Silhouette; June 03, 2008 at 04:53 PM.
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  16. #165
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    Re: Bleach -100 Discussion / -99 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Silhouette View Post
    And also according to Unahana, spirits can completely vanish when they are just unstable too. So how did you decide it was a symptom of turning into a hollow only?
    I don't know that it is a symptom of turning into a hollow only, but if SS had known about hollowfication previously like you suggested, then they would have considered it a possiblity. Also, Unohana was giving an explanation for what apparently happened. The souls did seem to vanish leaving nothing but their clothes. It was not until later that it is realized that they did not just vanished but transformed into hollows.


    Quote Originally Posted by Silhouette View Post
    Edit:
    We've seen more than a dozen spirits vanish but only one hollow came out, so not every single spirit that breaks down becomes a hollow and SS must've also seen incidents when people completely disappeared which is what lead Unahana to her conclusion.
    No. It was completely unknown to them. Back to that same reference, Unohana was only giving it as a possible explanation, and thus she had not seen or heard of these things happening before.
    Last edited by Tsukisama; June 03, 2008 at 04:58 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

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