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There hasn't been anything serious to debate! Mostly we've been processing.
For what it's worth I really, really love the discussions we have here. We're smart, thought-provoking, interesting, diverse, and crazy in the best possible sense of the word! It has been such a comfort to me in a sometimes lonely, changeable time of my life to know that this community exists and is always here/there/everywhere/Englishneedstocomeupwithnewwordstodescribevirtuallocations as long as I have access to a computer.
I wish there was some way of showing to Clamp that some genuinely intelligent and thoughtful people really love their stuff. If I were an author I would be really happy to know people like you appreciated my work. Anyone got any theories about how we could let them know we exist?
I have no problem with the Copies being the parents. That will just be Clamp in their typical twistedness if it can be explained properly. :P What I'm not prepared to ignore, however, is the connection between R!Syaoran and Clow/the CCS pair. From the last chapter, we know that the Clow that Yuuko has been referring to throughout the series is the Clow from CCS (or else I really can't imagine another reason why he said bye to people who look suspiciously like Cerberus and Yue, if Cerberus can be considered a person, that is :P) And if I'm understanding the series correctly, R!Syaoran is his descendent/relative i.e. has Clow's blood running through his veins. And my understanding is that the parents are also descendents or relatives of Clow, who happen to look exactly like the CCS pair.
For the sake of argument let's say that C!Syaoran and C!Sakura are the parents and received their magic/weapons from their CCS counterpart respectively. Recall that Father!Syaoran did say that he inherited his sword from his father. What logically follows would be that CCS!Syaoran is C!Syaoran's father...I'm seriously not sure what I'd feel about that - about both the fact that all three Syaoran's are from the same world and the second generation business.
Also a little minor fact that I'd like to mention. Throughout the series, the same individual from different worlds only share the same name, they don't have the same last name. But I distinctly remember that Father!Syaoran's name is Li Syaoran, a name that his son inherited from him. Maybe Clamp is trying to tell us something here, and maybe they're not. It is only a minor detail, along with all the other ones such as the magic circle, which by itself it may not mean much, but when there are so many of these little points all pointing in the same direction...it is the evidence in its totalitythat I'm not ready to overlook yet unless something convinces me otherwise. To quote Yuuko, there is no coincidence, just inevitability.
I bet R!Syaoran's real name is really Suzaku. :PPPPPPPPPPPPPPP
Last edited by raincloud; May 19, 2009 at 06:44 PM.
(Giggles.) Well, it may come as no surprise, but I lurv Suzaku. So I would only be minorly opposed to that--and even then, it's because I truly love Syaoran more than Suzaku. Sorry, Kururugi. (Pats his emo head.)
It's too bad CLAMP only ties in their manga worlds--it'd be kind of fun if they at least referenced Code Geass in Tsubasa. Imagine kicking FWR's butt in a fancy Knightmare. Bwahahaha.
Um, yeah, as for the Li deal... I suppose if the Clones are literally BORN to someone, there's a chance that they can still be the parents. There's also a chance that Father!Syaoran isn't really a Li at all, and that was just bogus. But if it's what it seems to be, thus far, and that is that Li Syaoran from the flashbacks is a blood relative of Clow Reed legitimately of the Li clan... That's one reason why I'm still dubious.
For myself, though, I'm not set on anything. I just lean a bit more in a certain direction for a guess. But for all we know we could all be wrong! Hahaha. Maybe Syaoran really IS Suzaku! Maybe the Clone is R!Syaoran! Maybe the Clones were reborn as the Mokonas! Maybe Fei Wong Reed will suddenly feel terrible for all he's done, start bawling like a baby, and then they'll all hug, Mokona will regurgitate chocolate dim sum and sake and they'll sing the theme song from My Neighbor Totoro!
Maybe (realistically, actually) NONE of that stuff will happen. :-P BUT the point is that it's CLAMP and they can throw a number of curveballs and explain them all. And, irregardless of how things LOOK, we're just speculating--it's not going to change what already is in the works. And we'll all nod and go, "Ah! I get it!" And there will be jubilation and much typeage.
But Suzaku is so ANNOYING (ok, until he goes on Lelouch's side at the end. Then he's cool).
*epic lol* Is it weird that I can actually see all that happening... Urgh. Imagining FWR hugging anyone for some reason makes me feel slightly queasy. Lol.Quote:
*drags self back on topic by hair*
I'm still feeling undecided as to whether they're going to be reborn as like, babies, or whether they're going to appear or something. They have bodies, after all. Yuuko says that they have bodies. C!Syaoran has his own, and C!Sakura has R!Sakura's.
Also, upon recieving volume 27 from amazon.co.jp, I've noticed that the continuity in chapter 219 is a bit off, unless the C!s reappearance is partially an explanation for Yuuko's statement that Clow gave... er... The new Syaoran, his magic. It's just like "CLow gave him the magic" and then C!s.
But still. I refuse to believe anything for certain. Clamp is evil and will probably do something that none of us have even considered in our craziest moments. They've proved they can. We were all like right the tube is either R!s or C!s... But THEN... Well yea.
Too bad, I still like him! And I have a track record of liking characters who aren't the most popular, so you shan't dissuade me, hahahaha.
And, right, that's what I mean. We always THINK we have all the options on the table and then they're all, "A-hemhem. Surprise!" And we go "Der, why didn't we think of that?" Which is part of why I gave that string of silly examples. I was joking but at the same time... Something we're not thinking of could be the real answer.
Hi, I'm new to the forum... after jumping up and down after Chapter 221 and doing my crazy victory dance around the house, I calmed down... slightly.
Um, correct me if I'm wrong, and maybe I'm overanalysing all this:
On the theory that C!Syaoran and Sakura are the parents, aren't the parents' real names "Sakura" and "Syaoran". However, the R!pair's names are not actually Sakura or Syaoran, so therefore, their clones' real names also wouldn't be Sakura or Syaoran... therefore, if this logic works, then it seems unlikely that the Clones are reborn as the parents...
But yes, maybe I am overanalysing...
P.S. I just wanted to thank everybody who posts on this forum, because without all of you discussing the chapters, I probably would have utterly lost myself trying to work out what was happening. So, thanks!
birleywhirligig - Welcome to the show mate! Your observations from chapter 3 of xxxHolic are most shrewd. I always assumed it was a reference to Watanuki's parents but you could easily be right.
PirateFeind - If anything Studio Ghibli became involved for any reason I would probably die of overexcitement. Miyazaki is one of the fractionally tiny number of people who pwns Clamp. Thanks for the term 'typeage'. It's the non-vocal word I've been searching for to describe our discussions here.
R!Syaoran's father tells R!Syaoran "The time has come for you to take my name" or something like that (can't be stuffed going to check although it actually might be a really good idea and I should). If he's C!Syaoran it works perfectly as 'Syaoran' is C!Syaoran's name. It also works if it's Li Syaoran from CCS so aren't we having fun here!
Does R!Syaoran or anyone associated with R!Syaoran ever actually use the name 'Li' or have we all just assumed it's there because of his magic circle and jian?
IF R!Syaoran's parents are the clones (which I increasingly suspect) he could still be a relative of Clow Reed if you factor in the anti-logic that governs cause and effect in TRC. This will be a bit confusing, so bear with me. If R!Syaoran is a relative of Clow Reed and C!Syaoran is his clone, C!Syaoran is identical to him and is a relative of Clow Reed as well. Therefore, if R!Syaoran is his son, R!Syaoran is a relative of Clow Reed.
What that argument depends on is the assumption that if a clone of someone has the same DNA (excluding mitochondria) as the person they were copied from, then the clone has the same genetic relationship as their original to others, and is therefore a relative of all the people the original is a relative of.
Ignore rules like "People can't be born from clones of themselves", they don't apply here and if you have a problem with that go take it up with FWR as it's all his fault.
It doesn't answer where R!Syaoran's jian came from though, or why his attacks are the same as those of CCS!Syaoran.
What's interesting about this alternative cause and effect is that, as Yuuko said, everything is defined by the present. It makes me wonder whether there's a past and future in TRC at all. Well, OK, I think there is, but the whole manga takes place in a patch of the hitsuzen continuum (spelling?) that has a very alternative sense of chronology. Probably the story will end with the restoration of a more conventional system of consequence. Maybe that's what's up with all the statements like "Let us believe in the future" and "Tomorrow will surely come", it's a statement of hope that cause and effect will be restored and there will once again be such a thing as tomorrow.
Can some one please be a saint and check what the raw of 'providence' is? I think the translators have slipped up on this one again. 'Providence' means divine guidance of the world which I don't think is what Clamp are talking about.
Last edited by Tsubasaholic; May 20, 2009 at 06:30 AM.
Okay here is one crazy theory that doesn’t really fly, but I’m have a suspicion that Clamp hasn’t really finalized everything very early on in both Tsubasa and xxxholic, especially when it comes to Watanuki and Syaoran and their parents. When Watanuki and Yuuko went to that fortune lady, didn’t the fortune lady said Watanuki’s parents passed away? I find the flow a bit strange when late into the storyline she randomly called Yuuko and told her that Watanuki’s parents are still alive and are just in another world... It seems more like they’re correcting a mistake or something…Well, who knows, Clamp might have planned this all along, but nonetheless this is one crazy suspicion of mine, and I'm perfectly willing to take the facts as given.
Just felt like starting a new thread, this being my second one.
I'm sorry but even though I was really ecstatic over it yesterday when I read the translation and looked at the raw, I couldn't help but laugh this morning because my best friend had just read it and she was like "Wow, it took 220 chapters just to say 3 words." She didn't say it in a mean way or anything but like she was about to giggle a bit. I couldn't help but agree. We've been waiting so long and now she finally got to say just those words xD It's exciteing yet now we just need a confession from R!Sakura, since the girl in this series is the more initiative one in the series. Go Sakura! xD
I certainly hope so. He gave up a lot to save her as well! I jumped, just as happy, when R!Syaoran was able to FINALLY grab her hand, after ALL these YEARS, as when C!Sakura and C!Syaoran were finally able to speak to each other. Maybe I'm in the minority, I'm not sure, but I'm a total sympathizer for R!Syaoran. He hasn't even been able to have a true victory yet--everything comes with a catch or a downside. If he ends up going through all the crap and then losing her, that'd be very unfortunate.
Flipper-kun! Long time no see man! I was wondering what had happened to you. There is one chapter where FWR goes on for a while about how 'providence' has dissappeared from the world and this chapter has 'providence' in the title. I'm convinced it's a mistranslation of some sort. Perhaps they should be saying 'logic' (or 'sanity'!) instead!
Raincloud - Details are sooo important in this series that they MUST have sorted most of them out and if they didn't that's pretty sloppy of them. That said, everybody does make mistakes which we must never forget.
Also Raincloud - There's a mildly huge connection between death and the dream world. The parents were hiding in the dream world which maybe has a similar feeling to being dead. My big theory about why she said they were dead is Clamp wanted to put us on the wrong foot and were cruder than usual about it. Who knows though? Ohkawa-sensei, not us.
What I find fascinating about all this is that though time has ceased to flow as it should, hitsuzen is still working perfectly. Everything still fits together. Everything that happens in TRC is defined by what has already happened, everything that has happened is defined by what will happen, and both past and future are completely defined by what happens is the present which in turn is defined by how it came to be. It's the ultimate resolution of free will and predestination! It's SO COOL!!! I'm guessing that hitsuzen is actually the most important force in the universe and obvious things like linear time are actually second to it.
FWR is a bit foolish really, by changing things so the present can change both the past and the future he's opened up a massive door to interference by Yuuko and, though somewhat indirectly, Clow. Honestly, cloning Syaoran and Sakura was possibly the biggest flaw in his plan (Hell yeah!). It currently looks like they're right at the heart of Yuuko and Clow's attempt to bring him down.
I'm going through a phase of thinking the clones aren't R!Syaoran's parents after all. Who knows eh? Ohkawa-sensei, not us. It's great how it could go either way and still fit perfectly. Maybe that in itself is a comment on the nature of how the past can be changed now that logic/providence is gone.
Last edited by Tsubasaholic; May 20, 2009 at 10:01 AM.
Okay, one by one:
Tsubasaholic: Right with you there, on the Studio Ghibli. :-P
The Li name is used during R!Syaoran's flashback sequence. R!Syaoran tells Yuuko his name is "Li Syaoran," just like his father's name...(189:5) And here's where his father did say he passed his name onto him. (192:7)
Like you said, he also uses the Shourai magic, and additionally R!Syaoran has the Li Syaoran Compass for his "magic circle," which I think may just go as a part of that. Then there's also how R!Syaoran is related to Clow by blood. If R!Syaoran's Clone is his father, then where would that relation take place? The one thing I can think of is that the flip the tables on us (if it isn't the CCS pair) and in this case it's his mother that has the blood relation instead of his father. But I don't think that's really the case.
One thing that DOES make me believe it's not the CCS pair is how R!Syaoran and his parents never dress in "normal" clothing--just modern clothes like jeans and t-shirts or slacks and dress shirts. I've kind of assumed that that might be because they're in Hong Kong with the Li's. But maybe the truth is that they're not even in the same world as ours? Or maybe it's backwards? Maybe CCS Syaoran is descended from R!Syaoran?
Raincloud: His parents are "dead" but end up being alive, just in a separate world. (170:5)
Tsubasaholic: The only reason why I mentioned this is because this has known to have happened to Clamp before - like what happened to CCS. Tomoyo was supposedly "in love" with Sakura, yet very early on there was a mistake where Tomoyo appeared to have a crush on Touya because there was a disconnect between Ohkawa-sensei and other Clamp members. They eventually ended up correcting it by illustrating that Tomoyo blushes around Touya because he reminds her of Sakura. That said, it is only crazy theory of mine which probably doesn't fly as I said. LOL Just throwing out a possibility and I'm perfectly happy to be overruled on this point.
PirateFiend: You've lost me here. LOL I thought I was saying what you were saying, and that was exactly the scene I was referring to when I said "she randomly called Yuuko and told her that Watanuki’s parents are still alive and are just in another world"
Last edited by raincloud; May 20, 2009 at 09:13 PM.
I See what your saying here but there are two ways to look at what has happened and what is about to happen. Like with the feather, my main problem with the current theory about the clones being parents is, if they are, does that mean they were the parents before all of this was set into motion by FWR or are they about to become the parents as a result of what FWR did. If they were alrdy the parents then it means this is all a loop and if they are about to become the parents then it means they will end up taking someone elses point of existance as a result of FWRs actions and Yuuko/Clows wish.Quote:
Like the feather in clow country, was the feather there even before FWR set his plan into motion or did it appear as a result of FWRs plan.