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Thread: The Mainland and its ongoing 100 years war?

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    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Sportgal1's Avatar
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    The Mainland and its ongoing 100 years war?

    I was thinking about the mainland, and i realized that our only source of information was Rubel. We know that he's not the most trustworthey guy. I was wondering if anyone thinks it's possible that the mainland actually doesn't exist at all? Rubel could just be using it gain the Ghost 7's trust or something of the like.
    Last edited by HegemonKhan; March 27, 2011 at 08:39 PM.

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member rukori's Avatar
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    Re: The Mainland

    It is possible, but not very likely 'cause Rubel's info explain a lot of things like where are the Yoma coming from, why did the Org let so many AB live so far and why do they take so much money from the towns attacked by yoma...
    I don't think that Rubel had even a reason to make it up.


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    The truth about the 100 years war?

    I always found strange in Miria's revelation that the war in the main continent has been raging for only 100 years. That would also imply that the organization has been existing and experimenting with human hybrids for no longer than that.

    However, everything in the story points in a different direction:

    1) If we have to believe the "conspiracy theory" of Miria, Yomas are creatures of the organization as well. However, if the organization has been operating for only the past 100 years, there would be more elder people recalling of a time when yomas didn't infest the land (directly or undirectly - it usally takes a few generations to forget something).

    2) At a certain point of the story, it is revealed that there were more than 70 generations of claymores. That would imply that each "generation" lasts about one year, but...

    3) Claymore recruits seems to grow up normally from childhood, so it takes them some years to reach maturity. If each generation of claymores would last only a year of two at best, the organization wouldn't be able to replentish the ranks soon enough. True, they can get an endless stream of children (and they probably do) but, at this point, it would be difficult to define what a "generation" is.

    4) If current events are an indication, a single generation of claymores is more likely to last 5-10 years. At least the more capable warrions (not the low-rank cannon fodder which has to be periodically replentished with new recruits pressed into service even if not completely ready...)

    The organization top executives not getting older is not the only strange thing. Miria's explanation of the purpose of the organization and of the war on the 'other continent' is full of holes. So I wouldn't be surprised if, in the end, it turns out to be a mix of truth and lies arranged by Rubel.

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    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Shinomori Aoshi's Avatar
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    Re: The truth about the 100 years war?

    Maybe each generation lasts one year, if by 'generation' they mean something like a graduation from high school, well, for this occasion the training the little girls are put through.

    I mean, just as you call some people the "X college '93 year graduates" (or however you people call that, sorry), they might also use the same for each generation of Claymores...

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member kaliayev's Avatar
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    Re: The truth about the 100 years war?

    Many of these issues, and more, were voiced a long time ago, when the relevant chapter was released/spoiled. I suggest you take a look at the old mega-conversation.

    1) This takes place in a medieval setting. The life expectancy of this period wasn't exactly long. Provided the organization unleashed the yoma and allowed them to wreak a little havoc before making their presence known, the organization could have easily gotten away with playing the role of savior. It wouldn't be surprising if they had an extensive propaganda network in play to counter any such records. When you feed people's fears, it's easy to take advantage of them without their noticing it. Besides, there is evidence of knowledge of pre-organization circumstances through the secluded village that Miria mentioned. At the same time, the most surprising aspect of Miria's theory lies with the holy city, which one would expect to have a relatively uncorrupted history available. After all, it tried to dissociate itself from the organization. Of course, this tradition could be evidence of their subconscious knowledge of past circumstances.

    2) Yes, the various claymore generations do pose a problem, but this has been brought up before.

    3) I'm pretty sure they don't imbue them with yoma qualities until around the time of puberty. It makes the most sense because the rapid development of the body paired with a hybridization would be useful in cultivating their yoki. They do have an endless supply, which is created by their own "failures" as a policing body. After the trials, which we saw Clare go through, the trainee is ready to become a Claymore. The yoma that attacked made it clear that these trials were quite common so there's always a fresh supply of post-trainees to recruit from. Its similar to the bureaucratic replenishing of the workforce via a country's educational system. Again, it's not a huge leap to put the organization in such a context.

    4) I would have gone with four to six myself. The organization's current policy is to exhaust the claymores before they learn too much and grow too powerful. The fierce competition among them serves the purpose of purging members by forcing them to come closer to awakening in their attempts to solidify their individual ranks. Given the time frame we were exposed to during Raphaela's flashbacks, ten years is far too long for a new generation to be cultivated. Obviously, the rate at which claymores are replaced decreases with the higher ranks, but the only rank that is likely to hold for ten years is number one (and two if sisters), and this depends heavily on the grooming of the next number one. The only reasons Alicia and Beth haven't been replaced are because they haven't burned out and are an efficient tool. Of course, this still means the one century timespan is unrealistic.

    The lack of aging among the upper echelons of the organization isn't a new revelation. Given the abnormal veins on their heads, it would not be surprising if they were the early creations of the hybrid project or the source of a more pure yoma gene.

    Rubel is a covert operative for the dragon kin forces. Given the superior position of the dragon kin forces in the war and the recent possibility of a dragon kin invasion of the organization's research continent, it's sketchy to think that Rubel feels any need to rely upon the partially awakened. If anything, their struggle is a source of amusement. Since there's no pressing need for him to manipulate them, there's no reason to believe that he's lying.
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    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Sportgal1's Avatar
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    Re: The truth about the 100 years war?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shinomori Aoshi View Post
    Maybe each generation lasts one year, if by 'generation' they mean something like a graduation from high school, well, for this occasion the training the little girls are put through.

    I mean, just as you call some people the "X college '93 year graduates" (or however you people call that, sorry), they might also use the same for each generation of Claymores...
    Then what would they change the generation by? From what i've seen, they change the generation by number one, or when massive amounts of high level claymores become killed (like at Pieta)

    If they were ranked by 'graduation' you could have 3 number ones from the same generation. i don't think that would work out very well. I think Yagi made life pretty difficult when he said the war had been only raging 100 years, which is actually a really long time.

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    Re: The truth about the 100 years war?

    Quote Originally Posted by kaliayev View Post
    Since there's no pressing need for him to manipulate them, there's no reason to believe that he's lying.
    Quite the contrary, I believe. A half true / half false story could be the fuel to mislead his unwilling allies into goals that otherwise they wouldn't pursue.

    The manga always portrays the organization as something shady. During Theresa's flashback story she jokes about Yoma being sent by the orgranization itself. This is something every reader must have speculated at some point.

    As far as we know, the organization could be nothing more than some kind of mason circle which manipulates monsters for acquiring power and prestige among humans and Rubel is scheming to take control of it.

    If you were Rubel, would you just say to Miria: "Sorry we lied to you: we create both claymores and yomas for the sake of power and money. Could you please lend me a hand becoming the new head of the organization?"
    No: you would probably make up a convincing story to fuel Miria's thirst for revenge.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member kaliayev's Avatar
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    Re: The truth about the 100 years war?

    Quote Originally Posted by Krepax View Post
    Quite the contrary, I believe. A half true / half false story could be the fuel to mislead his unwilling allies into goals that otherwise they wouldn't pursue.

    If you were Rubel, would you just say to Miria: "Sorry we lied to you: we create both claymores and yomas for the sake of power and money. Could you please lend me a hand becoming the new head of the organization?"
    What on earth are you talking about? Rubel pretty much laid all his cards on the table for Clare. He has no desire to take control of the organization. His only fear is that the partially awakened claymores could end up being used for research. Guess what this implies: the dragon kin couldn't care less about Alicia and Beth. They are not seen as a threat. Ultimately, his only reason for manipulating Miria and Clare (after their partial awakening) was to keep them from creating a "controllable" awakened being. Think about how dangerous the organization would have been had Priscilla only partially awakened. He doesn't really fear the ghosts' involvement at this point because it's highly unlikely that the ghosts will turn their blades against the dragon kin or work with the organization. Atm, his only goals with them are to get them to either try to destroy the organization or destroy themselves. Both options clearly limit the organization's power.
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    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member Mammago's Avatar
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    Re: The truth about the 100 years war?

    Quote Originally Posted by kaliayev View Post
    What on earth are you talking about? Rubel pretty much laid all his cards on the table for Clare. He has no desire to take control of the organization. His only fear is that the partially awakened claymores could end up being used for research. Guess what this implies: the dragon kin couldn't care less about Alicia and Beth. They are not seen as a threat. Ultimately, his only reason for manipulating Miria and Clare (after their partial awakening) was to keep them from creating a "controllable" awakened being. Think about how dangerous the organization would have been had Priscilla only partially awakened. He doesn't really fear the ghosts' involvement at this point because it's highly unlikely that the ghosts will turn their blades against the dragon kin or work with the organization. Atm, his only goals with them are to get them to either try to destroy the organization or destroy themselves. Both options clearly limit the organization's power.
    I think you're wrong about the dragonkin not being worried about Alicia and Beth. When they were finished is when Rubel started making his move. The fact that he's the only one who knew about the half awakened and all of them were sent to Pieta shows he was trying to eliminate at least one problem. Even before then when they were close to completion he was sowing the seeds of discontent with Miria, probably the first half awakened. He knows Alicia and Beth's weakness, but wouldn't be able to exploit it with half awakened leveling the field. He needed to get rid of one and Miria's group was the easiest to dispose of.

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    Re: The truth about the 100 years war?

    I think Krepax's point is what if Miria's entire theory was wrong and what if Rubel is simply playing her in making her believe it is true for his own gain(as in, what if the Dragon Kin and everything didn't exist)?

    I personally believe Miria's story seems to coincide well because there would be no explanation for the existence of the Claymores(the swords I mean) if we didn't have some type of other land where they originated from.

    My question is what is the origin of the Dragon's kin and their relationship to Youma. Miria says the Organization has been developing Awakened beings to fight the Dragon Kin, but how did they manage to create Awakened beings? Simple genetic tampering? Or maybe they took a sample of Dragon Kin DNA and played with it to get another being. Ad what are the origin of the Dragon's Kin? Does this imply the presence of Dragons in the Claymore universe?

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member kaliayev's Avatar
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    Re: The truth about the 100 years war?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mammago View Post
    I think you're wrong about the dragonkin not being worried about Alicia and Beth. When they were finished is when Rubel started making his move. The fact that he's the only one who knew about the half awakened and all of them were sent to Pieta shows he was trying to eliminate at least one problem. Even before then when they were close to completion he was sowing the seeds of discontent with Miria, probably the first half awakened. He knows Alicia and Beth's weakness, but wouldn't be able to exploit it with half awakened leveling the field. He needed to get rid of one and Miria's group was the easiest to dispose of.
    Rubel's been making his "moves" since the moment he joined the organization. The reason he tried to dispose of the partially awakened was because he could maintain his alias while doing so. If one starts messing around with the organization's biggest project, someone's gonna notice. However, nobody's gonna notice if he adds a few names to the roster for a suicide mission, especially when said individuals aren't the most obedient claymores. Like he said, he likes to take small steps.

    When your entire offensive strategy relies heavily on keeping one individual safe and your enemy knows this weakness, you're pretty much screwed. Hell, remember what happened in The Dark Knight? Dent was both the weakness and the strength of the "white knight" strategy and everything went to hell when the Joker finally got to him. Rubel knows this weakness, which means that the dragon kin know it as well. Obviously, if this weakness is taken advantage of on the main continent, there would be a problem (one or two abyssal ones running around wreaking havoc). However, since the organization seems to be gearing them towards cleaning up certain messes before mass-production and deployment on the main continent (if they weren't concerned about cleaning up the abyssal ones, they would have abandoned the research continent after Alicia and Beth were "completed." plus, they may have that centennial review coming up), Rubel doesn't have a reason to fear them. Even so, it can't be too difficult to disrupt a soul link that isn't as pure as Luchaela. It could certainly be a suicide mission, but you think Rubel wouldn't be able to interfere with the soul link? Who knows, maybe he was even involved in the disruption that caused the Luciela disaster (it would certainly fit his profile to make a few comments to Raphaela to cause her to doubt herself during a soul link trial). Their dual-awakening is probably part of his endgame as regards the shutting down of the organization (they already tried normal sisters. without the knowledge of partial awakening, where can they turn after the failure of twins?). All that matters is the fact that Alicia and Beth aren't really on his radar. Christ, the entire time those two were fighting in the Cognates chapters, Rubel was smiling his ass off. Think about how long it would take for the organization to create more "perfect" weapons like Alicia and Beth (not only do they have to perfectly train them, but they have to wait for more female twins to pop up on the research continent) and how impractical the soul link really is.
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    Re: The truth about the 100 years war?

    Yeah Alicia and Beth may be a "success" in one way, but they aren't a practical success in terms of the war on the main continent. The fact that they need to be a pair of twins already makes it very impractical to use them on a large scale.

    The partially Awakened ones, on the other hand, are more disrupting as kaliayev said. They can go over their limit without losing themselves AND they can come back to "normal". Granted, this seems to be iffy as shown how Claire firs tried doing this(at the cost of Jeanne's life), but the possibility is certainly there and it seems to Rubel that if the Organization were to utilize this metho that it just might prove troublesome for the Dragon Kin.

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    Re: The truth about the 100 years war?

    What the organization really wants would be an Abyssal that stays loyal to the organization without the jury-rigging soul link. Isley, Riful and Luciella seemed to retain their intelligence and personality when they awoke, and they can transform to a human form. If the organization could eliminate the "hunger" the awakened beings have but retain the reasoning intelligence of the individual they may have hit paydirt. They would still have to deal with those that lose their minds but a few would work out.

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    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Sportgal1's Avatar
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    Re: The truth about the 100 years war?

    That's probably the reason that Rubel is keeping quiet about the half-awakeneds too. it's still pretty amazing that no other handler knows about it. Maybe all the other claymores are just more subtle than clare. miria's handler knows too, so the org might know. I think the partial awakeneds just retain too much commen sense to of much use the org. The AO have a twisted thinking.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member kaliayev's Avatar
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    Re: The Mainland

    The argument has pretty much been substantiated by the examination of the resources used in the crafting of their weapons. The rest of it, the warring of two separate countries, can still be suspect if we rely solely on Rubel. Even if Rubel is completely lying, the proposition of the existence of the continent has been established as true.

    I'm more curious about who is actually winning the war between the countries. It is highly likely that suicide awakenings (heh heh, the organization engages in terrorist tactics) could buy them time. However, for it to be a viable option for more than a decade seems unlikely to me (the DoD are bound to have adapted within that time frame). While we don't really know anything about the war, I like to think that the DoD forces are mostly winning and have conquered a sizable portion of the other side's land.
    Last edited by kaliayev; January 20, 2009 at 09:34 PM. Reason: rutru is no longer relevant
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