Like us on Facebook, follow us on Twitter! Celebrate another year with MH and read our yearbook.
Manga News: Check out this week's new manga (9/15/14 - 9/21/14).
Forum News: Visit new sections for Nisekoi and Kingdom!
my thoughts in more depth/detail:
1. We have Rubel saying he trained Clare himself and the BCs involved with Alicia+Beth+Soul Link training, but we haven't seen anyone else who trains the Claymores, not even seeing the Claymores mentoring the Trainee Claymores, as the closest we see is sparrings and/or challenge duels between Claymores and/or Trainee Claymores for rank promotions or personal reasons.
So, it seems that the training is done by the BCs. This means that the BCs know military training (combat skills, Martial Arts, distance, balance, reach/range/ranging, strength, speed, agility, parrying, dodging, timing, perception, combinations, swordsmanship, and etc), Yoma body and Yoki training (teaching the Claymores how to use their new bodies, yokis, and how to resist their yoki), psychological/mental conditioning/training, training civilian humans into Claymore killing machine hardcore warriors, diplomacy, infiltration, deception, seduction, politics, organization, management, administration, chain of command, leadership, strategy, tactics, "ninja" skills, stealth, assassination, ranking their Claymores' and their Power Levels, and etc... (and not to mention the BCs/Dae/Rubel knowing the "Science and Medical" of Yoma and Yoki).
2. the claymore swords are suppose to be unbreakable, which is seen to be the case, they NEVER break from anything, with only two possible exceptions: in the weird "mind-dream-illusion world" Clare's Quick Sword shatters "Rafaela's" claymore sword, as well as slicing "Rafaela" to pieces, and possibly Clare's claymore sword got "consumed" by the Destroyer when Deneve lost her arm with was holding Clare's claymore sword (but Deneve still has two swords, hers and either Clare's or Undine's).
as to my speculations as to what they are or made out of:
they're actually not a metal but instead is the bone from super hard Awakeneds/Dragons
if it's a metal, I call it Claymorium, hehe
it's like Adamantium, Mithril, or Diamond, as it's unbreakable
whatever it is made out of, it presumably comes from the continent, as Miria can't find it anywhere on the island, but that doesn't mean it can't actually come from the island as well. Also, the Org actually doesn't care about the claymore swords, as they allow claymore swords to be left around the island. So, they obviously must be able to "create/forge more or re-stock/get more of them"....
the claymore swords are heavy (ripped/dislocated Clare's shoulder out of its socket and child Raki and Galk had to carry and/or toss it+statue it was inside with two hands), as they are claymores (real world: 4-5 foot scottish swords, hehe), but they don't seem heavier than they should be.
Yet, Rubel catching it with one hand, and no movement by his hand/arm upon impact, is well beyond human strength, imo....
3. Rubel shows that he is concerned about the development/safety of his "personal precious project/creation: Clare", why create a being with Teresa's flesh (the most powerful being of all time), only to destroy it? that makes no sense!
4. (see #3). He's not surprised, he trained her afterall and knows her potential or power level, he's just pretending to be surprised towards the other BC. (remember that Rubel went out of his way, tried to lie, to hide/keep secret Clare's rising power level as seen with her surviving the single digit/ranked gonahl female AB, Claymore Ophelia, and Awakened Ophelia). Rubel wants to keep Clare's potential/power level a secret from the rest of the BCs. He wants them to keep thinking that Clare is a weak failed 1/4 Yoma Claymore, that they need not pay attention to.
5. chapter 110, the BCs know absolutely nothing about Priscilla, past and present. obviously we got a contradiction between the actual manga content and the "databooks".
6. (see #5).
77th *year* out of the 100 years of the Org being on the island and making Claymores on the island
182 *Claymore warrior* TOTAL (at that point) to be ranked (made official/active doing missions, having completed the final test/trial as a trainee)
the manga as shown NO replacement of dead, Awakened, or deserted ranks until the next "Era". Claymores are NOT "constantly being replaced". There's NOT hundreds/thousands of Claymores, as straight up... that'd be insane... you only want a few "superhumans" in order to control them and not get usurped/killed by them. We humans don't want to create legions of terminators or super soldiers... only a few of them, that we can control and/or destroy, hehe
Priscilla, a rookie who (*IF*, which she actually isn't) "is" more powerful than Teresa, would NOT be "forgettened" or not known about... lol
Rubel truly kept Priscilla's existence, as a trainee, as a Claymore, and as an Awakened, (and Priscilla herself as one of thee best Yoki Suppression Abilities, as Teresa herself couldn't sense Priscilla, kept herself unknown to the Org) SECRET from the other BCs. Rubel had to have "sneaked" Priscilla onto Irene's team without the Org ever learning of the change from rank 5 Elda to rank 2 Priscilla. The Org never knew that Rubel secretly had Irene watch Priscilla, which resulted in Irene giving up her rank 2 spot to Priscilla, which thus made Priscilla a part of the rank 2-5 team to execute Teresa, dumping out Elda, as she is now demoted to rank 6, and thus not participating in the team to execute TEresa.
7. it's quite "confirmed" for the manga content standards. Rubel is indeed Miria's informant, Rubel himself admits it, Ophelia too conveys it, and it matches up with Miria's inferences as well.
8. Galatea is shooting her mouth off, about how the Pieta Battle was a "cleansing/purging" of their own "troublesome" Claymores. peeving off Rimuto, and in steps Rubel diffusing and preventing Galatea from speaking more, saving her bottom from being executed on the spot.
As well, as the two other instances as well. Someone prevented Galatea from being executed on the spot for her lie about Clare's survival and their encounter/battle with Riful+Dauf. And that's got to be Rubel.
Finally, Rubel allows Galatea to see the secret Alicia+Beth 's Awakening+Soul Link in action, for future use possibly, and knowing it would motivate her "as the final straw" to leave the Org, as it's probably was close to when the Org was going to finally execute her otherwise, had she not deserted.
9. (see #8).
there's one thing that Rubel would NOT inform Galatea about, in regards to Alicia+Beth and the secret Soul Link project:
Rubel would NOT tell Galatea that Luciela's younger sister, was none other than, Rafaela who was two ranks below Galatea hehe. Oh no, Rubel didn't want Galatea to know that he's personally using Rafaela, one of thee most powerful Claymores, for his own ends, hehe
10. they could have been killed... by Ophelia (or by Rafaela) on Rubel's orders... or killed how ever (a mission) and/or Ophelia could have told them to be silent about it.
11. Clare is Rubel's ultimate weapon, he's forcing her into hard battles, to accelerate her growth and power level increase, hehe
No, Ophelia was the "loose cannon" who knew too much, Rubel needed her killed, and Clare was perfect and Rubel could also see if Clare could handle Ophelia or not. It's quite possible that Rubel sent Irene to save Clare from Ophelia... only to then have Rafaela still execute Irene, suspiciously AFTER Irene has made "his" Clare more powerful hehe
and in having Rafaela kill Irene, he removes the last remaining witness to the secret Teresa+Priscilla incident.
12. Rubel specifically has kept HAs' existence secret from the Org. To this date, the Org knows NOTHING about HAs' existance. Rimuto is/was completely unaware of Clare becoming a HA.
again, Rubel's NOT going to destroy his own personal ultimate weapon/soldier he's personally creating and "grooming"/training/developing
13. no... I think only Helen has... hehe (but I could be wrong)
14. um... from spying on Clare+Teresa, and "grooming" her before she met Teresa, and than with direct evidence that he was successful, with Clare holding up Teresa's head to him being the first and only human to WANT, and even DEMAND to be made into a Claymore:
Clare: "Give me! Put inside my body! Teresa's FLESH AND BLOOD!" (RAWR!!!, brave girl to be making such a demand to Rubel, the LEADER of the Organization, hehe)
15. Rubel mocks the "power" of the "powerful" Alicia+Beth, because cough cough, they don't compare to Priscilla, nor Teresa (which is in HIS Clare), as was made painfully clear to them, with Priscilla pwning/killing them so easily.
The Org's most powerful warriors, Alicia+Beth+Soul Link, was a joke, compared to Rubel's Priscilla, grins
Rubel knew that Alicia+Beth weren't "all that powerful".
Rubel has much more powerfully creations: Priscilla, Destroyer, and the ultimate potential of the HAs, with Clare getting somewhat close the the HAs "holy grail" that the Org so desires, a Claymore that can Awaken and De-Awaken at will, without becoming an Awakened.
if you know DBZ, Bleach, or Naruto, it's like this:
imagine Goku having the power of SSJ2/3 as normal (non-SSJ) "human" Goku body
imagine Ichigo having the power of his Final Gengetsu Tengen, as normal "human" Ichigo body
imagine Naruto having the power of the Nine Tailed Fox+Sage mode, while as normal "human" Naruto body
I'll continue this later (another day)....
Last edited by HegemonKhan; March 05, 2011 at 11:32 PM.
Answer to above regarding warrior population: Adding up the toll of dead warriors from Scene 4 (1), Scene 25 (1), Scene 40 (1), Scene 41 (1), Scene 42 (1 + the 30 Riffle mentioned that she awakened), and at the end of Scene 61 (24 officially, though we know 7 survived). If Galatea deserted right after Pieta, that would bring the total replacements the Org needed to 60 warriors.
I'm guessing the time between Scene 1 to Scene 61 may well been within a year. But the real replacement total may well be much greater. If the yearly death toll is double (120 approx.), than the 144 warriors of Teresa's generation (if generations are yearly) makes sense.
144 warrior replacements, say, a year X 100 years = 14400 warriors. And if ten years lapsed between Teresa's death and the beginning of the series, that would be 1440 warriors that needed to be replaced.
Add the 7-Year Time Skip to a decade and we get 2448 warriors for the Org to remember... or forget. Even if the real numbers were half or a quarter of these sums, it's doubtful that anyone in the Org would recall a former No. 2 that served only a few months. The Org apparently knows Priscilla as an Awakened Being, but mistakenly under-assessed her power (getting back to the Data Books).
Of course, Scenes 1 through 61 might have been just a bad year....
But given that four Awakened Being hunting parties (Nina's, Audrey's, Dietrich's), plus that search party in Lacroix, were all saved (15 lives) from certain death by the Ghosts within the space of a few weeks, I suspect that death rate as high as ever. Say the time from when the Ghosts saved Nina's party to Deneuve and Co. saving Dietrich's party was a month. 15 warriors X 12 months is 180 warriors. Say two months and we have 90 warriors, plus whoever elsewhere get killed.
As Renee told Lucky in Dega (Doga) village, warriors are being replaced all the time.
And as an alternative to the current hypotheses about Louvre, I'm waiting for someone to finally announce that Louvre is really an triple agent, working for the Org, doubling for the Dragons' Allies, but really working for Father Vincent. Louvre does dress like a priest and generally avoids vulgar behavior. To speculate, he sent his best warrior, Clare, to protect his beloved superior, Father Vincent. Further, Father Louvre maneuvered Galatea to become a nun at Rabona Cathedral in order to have someone 24-7 protect the Holy City from the likes of Agatha. He further tricked the Org to send Clarice and Miata to help.
I welcome any further evidence in support of the Father Louvre hypothesis.
Last edited by jamie95403; March 06, 2011 at 06:06 AM.
your incorrect with saying that "Scene 1" (chapter 1) to "scene 61" (chapter 61) is only a year because there are flashbacks in it. unless, you're refering to Claymore Clare's "screen time" in Clare's "Era" from ch 1 to ch 61, than it might be a year, than my bad, and you're possibly right. I'm not sure which you meant, lol.
(I theorize that Clare's Era has seen ~ 5-6 years already BEFORE/PRIOR to ch 1 and ch 1 Claymore Clare, Clare becomes a ranked Claymore on the ~ 5-6th year of Clare's Era. On the ~ 6-7th year Elena becomes a ranked Claymore. ch 1 - ch 61 is that last 7th year of Clare's Era, ending with the end of the Pieta Battle, and becoming Clarice's Era, immediately after the Pieta Battle)
100 years / 14 "Eras" = ~7 years per "Era"
"Eras" = a changing of the rank 1 Claymore and/or if half or more of the Claymore Force is KIA/MIA/AIA (Killed In Action/Missing In Action/Awakened In Action).
14 "Eras" = (1) Isley (2) Riful (3) Lucila (4) Rosemary (5) Teresa (6) Clare (7) Clarice (8) Hysteria (9) Licht (10) Chloe (11) Lutecia (12) Roxanne (13) Sistina (14) Cassandra
I'd guess that the final tests/trials for the trainees are held every month, usually resulting in only 1-5 trainees out of the 10 trainees who participate who survive/pass it and become ranked Claymores. However usually only at most half of the Claymore Force, 47/2 = 23 or 24, needs new recruits. So, that'd be ~2 "passers" for the tests/trials being held every month, 2 x 12 = 24. For Clare's test/trial we see this match up: 10 triainees: 8 killed/dead trainees, Clare who passes/kills the NY, and 1 surviving Claymore (thanks to Clare) who we don't know if she was made into a ranked Claymore or not.
Also... a dark theory on my part: Claymores do NOT seem to know each other very well. This makes sense too from the Org's perspective of controlling them. Therefore I can certainly see that the Org WANTS only 1-2 trainees to survive the test/trials... and might even kill off the trainees if they're not killed by the NY, in order to keep the new Claymore from having any friends and/or knowing about their abilities, which is indeed seen to be the case. Claymores at best have only a single friend Claymore (such as Deneve+Helen or Clare+Elena or Miria+Hilda or Undine+her friend or Teresa+Irene or Sophia+Noel or Rafaela+Luciela or Alicia+Beth or Clarice+Miata), and are not aware of other Claymores nor their abilities, unless they've become famous, having titles and powerful Sword TEchniques or yoma/yoki abilities.
your numbers of Claymores are unrealistically large in my opinion.
here's an accurate record of all of the killed Claymores per Era:
there's only 47 Claymores at a time, 1 Claymore for each region, and there's 47 regions on the island.
why only 1 Claymore per region?
To prevent the Claymores from fighting/killing each other off. All Claymores work alone unless they on an AB hunt or other special circumstance.
if there were multiple Claymores in the same region:
Claymore A: "Hey, that was my Yoma to kill!"
Claymore B: "Aww, too bad, I got to it first and killed it!"
Claymore A: "I'll KILL YOU! DAMNIT!"
Claymore B: "Pfft, go ahead and try, I'll F'N KILL YOU!"
and again, Claymores are NOT replaced, until the next Era.
see the rest of my posts in the Characters of Claymore thread, for more details/explanations.
in terms of the laws of nature:
there's no way the island could support so many Claymores/Awakeneds as you've expressed as your view.
the higher up the food chain, the less you can have.
there can only be a few lions (Claymores/Awakeneds)
and lots of gazelles (Humans)
if lions increase to too many, they will eat up all the gazelles, and than themselves, until only one lion remains, which it too then dies, from starvation.
for balance to be maintained, the lions must be few un number.
if you had that many Claymores, they you got "that many" (keeping this simple) Awakeneds. with that many Awakeneds, they would devour the island of ALL life, including humans.
you're numbers of Claymores/Awakeneds is completely unrealistic, imo, as I've tried to explain.
personally, instead of making up ambigious numbers of Claymores, you should work only with what the manga has given you.
Because, you don't know if there has been:
47 Claymores x 100 years
47 Claymores x 14 Eras
47+ (how much/many?) Claymores x 100 years
47+ (how much/many?) Claymores x 14 Eras
therefore any number value other than what's shown in the manga content, is 100% speculation on your (or anyone's) part.
***for what the manga content is given as = see the link above in this post***
Last edited by HegemonKhan; March 06, 2011 at 05:34 AM.
Thank you for list. I left out a number of warriors' deaths. The real total is even higher than I thought.
Your list doesn't mention the 29 awakened, unnamed warriors that Riffle created (and presumably had Duff killed) in Scene 42. Remember Riffle was "harvesting" warriors to awakened for her army against Isley. See page 96 on the VIZ vol. 8, Riffle says "Thirty Awakened Ones and still no luck."
Revised list for death toll from Scene 4 through Scene 61:
Scene 4 (Elena), Scene 25 (unnamed warrior mentioned by Louvre), Scene 40 (Ophelia), Scene 41 (Raquel), Scene 42 (unnamed party member + Katea + 29 Riffle mentioned that she awakened), Scene 50 (Eva's party, 4), and at the end of Scene 61 (24 officially, though we know 7 survived).
I'm leaving out Hilda, Alicia, Beth and Rafaela, as they don't fit within our one year period.
If Galatea deserted right after Pieta, that would bring the total replacements the Org needed to 64 warriors that year. Not including other possible warriors' deaths that we weren't shown in the manga.
High numbers of replacements are needed simply because of the high death toll. Remember Extra Scene 4, where only 2 out of 10 trainees survived the final test? This is repeated again out in the world with the graduated warriors. And what is the average lifespan of a warrior? 3 months? 6 months? A year? The higher number, obviously the shorter the lifespan (except Clare of course).
Regarding your list in general, it's based on only some of the former No. 1s. It's leaving out Hysteria, Licht, Chloe, Sistina, Roxanne, Lutecea and Cassandra.
Wouldn't we need to add 46 warriors more to each of these No. 1s?
And given the fragmented history we're given in the manga, how could we even say that adding these No. 1s and their underlings would give a complete history of the warrior population?
But it is a beginning, so I do appreciate the list. I've learned much from it.
Last edited by jamie95403; March 06, 2011 at 05:54 AM.
it's chapter 42 page 26 for online sources.
Riful is saying that Katea (the one who Awakens, who Dauf kills/smashes to pieces) is in the 30s rank. Riful needs a more powerful ranked Claymore to make a more powerful Awakened, as rank 32 (or rank 30-39) Katea is too weak as an Awakened.
Riful is NOT refencing how many Awakeneds she "creates".
In fact, Riful UTTERLY FAILS to create an Awakened army...
Riful's EPIC FAIL = number of created and/or recruited additional Awakeneds = ZERO = LOLOLOL
well, we don't know about the new rank 1's Eras, except they they, the rank 1's, each died in their Era.
I only record what is known and/or reasonably known/sensible/rational
(this sounds oxymoronic... haha)
I haven't updated my numbers to match the additional 47 Claymores x 7 new Eras on the link's page yet, my apologizes... I'll get around to it at some point... if I don't forget, lol
my numbers on this post, are correct/updated however
well I guess we differ in how many Claymores we believe exist, then.
for me the max Claymores total possible created on the island is:
100 years of Org creating Claymores on the island / 14 Eras = ~7 years per Era (or to say it another way: an Era is ~7 years long)
~50 (actually 47) Claymores per Era x 14 Eras = ~700 (actually 658) Claymores total possible have been created on the island.
And, it's actually a lot less than ~700 (or 658), because 47 Claymores are NOT MIA/KIA/AIA after every Era, many Claymores survive into the next Era. We've only had three instances where half or more of the Claymore Force has been KIA/MIA/AIA off: Isley's male Claymores Awakening (Isley Era to Riful Era), Luciela's Awakening (Luciela Era to Rosemary Era), and Pieta Battle + other KIA/MIA/AIA (Clare Era to Clarice Era)
658 total possible - (~40) from Isley's Era - (47/2) from Luciela's Awakening - 30 from Clare's Era = 565 total possible remaining alive
565 - 19 more = 546 total possible Claymores/Awakeneds remaining alive
658 - 565 = 112 killed/dead Claymores/Awakeneds counted thus far in the manga, hehe
100 / 14 = 7
7 years per Era actually matches up well with the Claymore's aging:
my big problem however is figuring out:
the timelines of Ophelia, Hilda, and Miria in relation to Priscilla and Clare, GRRRRR
1. Priscilla kills Teresa and Awakens
2A. Priscilla flies off north and kills/eats Ophelia's brother, orphaned Ophelia is "picked up" by the Org and becomes a Trainee -> ranked Claymore (earlier in Clare's Era)
2B. Clare is holding up Teresa's head to Rubel, demanding to be made into a Claymore, Clare becomes a Trainee -> ranked Claymore (near the end of Clare's Era. Elena becomes a ranked Claymore AFTER Clare, so Clare has been doing missions longer then Elena has)
3. rank 6 Hilda and rank 17 Miria have worked together and become good friends.
4A. Miria has moved up to rank 8 now and is on rank 4 Ophelia's team
4B. Near-Awakening Hilda is met secretly by Ophelia (she lied to Ermita, saying she was going to pee), who rips up Hilda's black card and never tells Ermita about hilda nor Miria (who Hilda had wanted to get her black card). Also, Ermita talked about Miria's leadership skills to Ophelia, before Ophelia left to meet Hilda.
4C. rank 8 Miria is on her 3rd AB hunt, against Awakened Hilda along with Ophelia helping out this time. Miria kills Awakened Hilda, and nearly Awakens when she realizes its Hilda, becoming a HA. Ophelia reports this not to Ermita, but to Rubel instead. Rubel learns about HAs, from Ophelia about Miria.
5. Clare + Miria are assigned to kill a group of NYs.
6. Clare (her first AB hunt) + Miria (her 7th AB hunt) + Deneve (her 3rd AB hunt) + Helen (her first AB hunt) are on mission together to kill the male AB
7. Miria warns them about the ranks 1-5, and especially to watch out for rank 4 Ophelia.
8. Clare is on mission with Ophelia... and we know the rest
as you can see there's some problems in dealing with this:
who's been a ranked Claymore longer: Miria or Ophelia? when did they become ranked Claymores?
what about Clare and Ophelia in regards to them, did Ophelia become a ranked Claymore immediately (and rank 4, at that), whereas Clare took years in training as a Trainee?
Last edited by HegemonKhan; March 06, 2011 at 07:09 AM.
Wow! VIZ and the online scanlation are having Riffle say completely different things.
VIZ translation: Riffle: "Really? Too bad. Thirty Awakened Ones and still no luck."
Online scanlation: Riffle: "I see... What a shame... That's what an awakened 30 amounts to I guess..."
I would tend to trust the VIZ translation more, as Wendy is No. 30 and Katea No. 32 (though this is not a recommendation for VIZ, as they can be dubious at times). I'll look at the original. I do find the scanlations often wittier, even if less accurate.
And it's not that I disagree as I simply don't know. I have no idea as to how many or few warriors were created during the 100 year period. I realize that 47 districts need warriors assigned to them. All I've been able to do is count the death toll during a time period (Scene 4 to Scene 61) and calculate the replacements needed to keep all 47 districts covered. But that's like trying to figure out what an elephant looks like, when you only have its tail. We only see part of the Org story (Clare's and her companions).
I still don't know what really constitutes a generation, or an era. But let's keep in mind Yagi may have developed the series as he went along (in other words, it didn't spring fully developed from Zeus' forehead), so we will always face continuity issues and info gaps.
So we must think for ourselves than trying to "agree." And take ownership for our own thoughts and dreams, which is far more important than being "right" or "wrong."
Last edited by jamie95403; March 06, 2011 at 07:39 AM.
I think that dealing with Claymore overall number is a little off-topic to the subject of this post :P But Maybe in training there is a time, when one Claymore pass quicker than the others, and We didn't know for how long individual Claymore need training to be ready for final pass, and than for how long they deserve to be promoted to higher levels starting form 0.
I mean Clere was always treated as 0, failure, 1/4 Yoma, since maybe that is why Her training was longer than Ophelia?
Maybe when there are already 47 Claymores on her duty, the rest of it, even when ready and after they final trial are in standby, and when highest ranked warriors die, Org make shifts in positions of ranks, and for promoted ones they release weaker one, to fill the number, and to start they true mission?
We didn't know, how many Claymores are kept just for that occasion?
Have a good day
PS. to be not soo much off-topic, I think that Rubel has his own reasons to act like he does, and what will happen with that it is all up to Yagi
But I think it will be the bigger surprise then Miria's Resurrection!
Last edited by colonywars; March 06, 2011 at 07:45 AM.
Please don't be concerned with being off-topic. Some here would disagree, but as long as your thoughts are really your own, that's all that really matters. And yes, I agree that Louvre may not be what he seems. Is he working for third parties unknown, un-allied with either the Org or the Dragons' Allies? Is he's on the side of the angels? We'll know eventually.
And I'm still hoping someone here will take the Father Louvre hypothesis (he's working for Father Vincent and the Holy City) and run with it. Also, using the Google Translator, it appears that in Scene 42, Riffle is speaking of poor Katea as awakened "case no. 30". The original debate concerning this was whether or not 30 Claymores were involved. And whether these hypothetical warriors could be added to the yearly death toll. The problem here now I realize is we really don't know if Riffle used 30 female warriors or someone else (like Dae does with awakened male non-warriors). Also, we don't know the time period. I'm thinking within a year, but it could be beyond that.
Last edited by HegemonKhan; March 06, 2011 at 07:31 PM.
you know my view: Rubel's the real-true LEADER of the Organization! Muwahaha!
(Rubel is akin to Raz al' Ghoul in the movie Batman Begins*, pretending to be a subordinate of the League of Shadows, when he's really its real-true leader, and so too do I believe and theorize that Rubel is also the real-true leader of the Organization. Rimuto is just a fake-puppet leader, just like is seen in Batman Begins with that "asian guy" as the fake-puppet leader of the League of Shadows, intentionally set up by Raz al' Ghould himself. The deceptive leader of the deceptive League of Shadows, and so too do I feel that Rubel is the deceptive leader of the deceptive Organization)
-brief part of my rationale:
The Organization is a "Lion's Den of cut-throats/assassins/thieves/scheming politicians/sociopaths, who are just waiting to slit each other's throats the instant the oppertunity arises" as the likes of which we hope never to see in our real world- lol.
Well, if you have such a group, a "guild" of thieves/cut-throats/assassins... than sitting on a throne like Rimuto does... is just asking to be murdered...
No, the LEADER of such a group or "guild", wouldn't be doing such a stupid thing. The leader of a guild of thieves isn't sitting as a figure head on a throne, he's out there in the field, as that is what he is, the best thief/cut-throat/assasin of all time, not some "bench/throne-warming" figurehead. And pretending to be a subordinate is a great way to keep yourself safe from the other BCs
Rubel's out there controlling the entire island to his own whims, he's the puppeteer dancing everyone on his strings as his puppets. Everything that happens on the island is to his own design. Nothing escapes Rubel's control and manipulation. He's orchestrating everything and everyone on the island.
Rubel's the greatest of the Org's "dark affairs" nature, so he HAS TO BE the LEADER of the Org, hehe
Last edited by HegemonKhan; March 06, 2011 at 04:05 PM.
So you saying that Louvre is the shogun behind the emperor Klimt. The overseas power behind the Org may well have secret observers keeping an eye on the Org. Louvre could be one of them.
Now, would this overseas power choose a ragtag group of pirates, or a disciplined group of experienced, special forces and intel-types? So far, I've only seen the latter.
As to Chief Klimt, he seems the stolid, prosaic bureaucratic-type often found in government orgs. The Org and its "staff" (スタフ, Sutafu/Sutare (Staff). Pronounced "stef" in Japanese) could easily fit with the various intel ops happening today.
"Lion's Den of cut-throats/assassins/thieves/scheming politicians/sociopaths, who are just waiting to slit each other's throats the instant the oppertunity arises" is more descriptive of Boss, Rig and the gang of bandits that Smiling Teresa wiped out.
The Org appears to me, at least, very professional, reflecting their experience on the mainland.
But I could be completely wrong!
the problem with the "Dragons" and Rubel being "their spy", is who's the ONLY source of this?
Answer: Rubel himself
how do we know Rubel hadn't made up this whole BS about Dragons and him being their spy?
How do we know that Rubel wasn't merely making this stuff up, to "match up" with Miria's rebelious nature towards the Org and her "conspiracy theories" (which are true, as the Org is indeed "Evil/corrupt"), in order to become trusted by Miria... so that he can control and manipulate her???
"Become thee friend of thy enemy, and when thee is trusted, betray thy enemy and stab them in back, to get the most satisfying victory over thy hated enemy" -HK
Before the Org came to the island:
Staff, city of the far east (in Sutare, the eastern land of the island)
After the Org came to the island:
Staff City -> the Organization HQs
Sutare, the eastern land of the island
Sutafu, the eastern land of the island
(manga) Sutare = Sutafu (anime)
Last edited by HegemonKhan; March 06, 2011 at 07:26 PM.
Staff," "Sutafu" and "Sutare" are all translator variants of the same eastern region, スタフ. The VIZ translation of the manga calls it Sutafu, the scanlation Sutare.
The town the Org is headquartered is actually unnamed, though one scanlation named it "Staff." And as I last remembered, the English language dub of the anime series pronounced it Sutare (which in Sweden is carp fish!).
Personally, I like the idea of calling the town Staff and the eastern quadrant region Sutare/Sutafu, but unhappily, they're all spelled スタフ.
Same deal with Mucha and Musha (birthplace of Priscilla). Both "Musha" (Extra Scene 3) and "Mucha" (Scene 90) are spelled ミュシャ, so they too are the same place. But still, I wish there really was town called Musha in the southern quadrant of Mucha.
Blame Yagi and the publishers for not naming everyplace as well as for the sketchy maps in Jump Square. In one issue of Jump Square, on the map of the island, Rabona is placed in western Toulouse, while another map from another issue places Rabona dead center of Toulouse. One of the Claymores might have said Rabona was dead center of the island, though I forgot who. The Claymore DS Game Map agrees with the Scene 92 Extra Map, but that probably means little. Maybe all the maps mean little.
Though I personally think Lucky's hometown of Dega (Doga) is in western Lautrec, we should not discourage HegenonKhan and others from arguing Dega is really in Mucha or even Staff. Diversity of opinions, please!
I personally like Louvre and hope he turns out to be one of the good guys.
Last edited by jamie95403; March 06, 2011 at 08:07 PM.
well, since I don't know Japanese, I'm stuck with refering to the english translations, and will continue to use them for a slightly different understanding of Claymore (Claymore, "english version", lol).
Org HQs = Staff, city of the far east (its hidden/camelflagged in one of the pics of a translated version online)
Sutare = online transation = the eastern land
Sutafu = anime and Viz' manga translation = the eastern land
Mucha = the southern land
Musha = Priscilla's home town (though this is more shakey.. C vs S, lol)
But, thanks a lot for the Japanese!
Can you read Japanese and translate it to English or are you using software or whatever?
Last edited by HegemonKhan; March 06, 2011 at 09:45 PM.
I'm stuck with US English too, but we can all compare the Japanese raws with the official VIZ English translations and the online English scanlations. Together with the Google Translator and online dictionaries, anyone here can piece things together. The translations on this website are also a big help.
I wouldn't worry too much about what's "canon" and what's not. According to Italian novelist Italo Calvino, his ideal reader is the creative sort, the one who can co-create worlds using the arts of others. So Calvino didn't care if readers changed things around in his stories to suit themselves. And I think Yagi would forgive us if each of us created our own Island World of Claymore. We're doing that anyway each time we read his work.
You should do some fan fiction based on your theories of Louvre! And feel free to name/rename and locate any locale on the island you want. The only limit should be your imagination!
Last edited by jamie95403; March 07, 2011 at 03:41 AM.
Oh I'd like to!, but I can't write creatively/literary... sighs...
and when I do try... my stories are X-rated and brutal, lol ... (but again extremely poorly written, I do NOT know how to write as a fiction author!). I also write too directly... which is horrible for story writing.. lol..
you might be amused in an old wild theory I had, had in the past:
caves are often the scenes of impregnation in such medieval and/or like literature...
Rubel visiting... Rafaela twice in a cave... once to... father Teresa.... and again to father Clare....
unknown to Teresa and Clare, they're actually sisters, their mother is Rafaela (or maybe Rubel also "got off" with Rafeala' older sister Luciela too, and she's the mother of one of them, hehe), and their father is... Rubel...
I mean look at that scene (its where Rubel has come to "reinstate" Rafaela after the Priscilla Awakening incident) with Rubel and Rafeala holding hands! EEWWWWWW !!!!! SHUDDERS....
Last edited by HegemonKhan; March 07, 2011 at 05:11 AM.