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View Poll Results: Who would win?

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  • Sarutobi

    44 59.46%
  • Kakashi

    30 40.54%
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Thread: Old Sarutobi vs Kakashi

  1. #121
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: Old Sarutobi vs Kakashi

    Quote Originally Posted by Skidmore View Post
    No, Jiraiya told that mastering the six types of chakra nature was unprecedent, not five. While Orochimaru said that Hiruzen was able to use all jutsu in Konoha, which pretty much include five types os elements.

    You can check this at Chapter 375 - Page 11.

    Kishimoto never made this clear. I can only remember his statment through Kakashi and Yamato that generally Jounins does have affinity with at least Two Elements. (Chapter 316 - Page 5). And Kakashi even states that he can manipulate more elements than Thunder.

    There isn't this limitations about how many elements can someone control, it was never stated, but it seems to take mastership to do so, and Nagato doing this with an age of Ten was an awe.

    Hiruzen wasn't called the Professor for nothing.
    The very idea that Sarutobi could use every technique in Konoha is obviously false even before you factor in elemental affinity. Konoha has dozen of Secret and Bloodline Limits that Sarutobi couldn't possibly be able to use. Anyway, it was made clear that knowing more then three natures was strange. Kakashi was surprised that Kakuzu was able to use four and understood why when he learnt about Kakuzu stealing hearts and their affinities. If being able to use all five natures was possible for a normal person, then Kakashi wouldn't have been surprised by Kakuzu's display. This also showed us that in order to use any element, one must have the correct affinity. You can't use an element that you don't have a affinity for, thus the whole reason people can't use all the elemental natures.

    As for what Jiraiya said, it doesn't change anything. The yin/yang nature is the basis of genjutsu, healing techniques, and various other techniques. Unlike the five elements, there seems to be no required affinity needed to use it. So that wasn't what Jiraiya was impressed at the Rinnegan being able to do, but making use of all five of the other elements. In fact, even if you want to keep with such an argument, the exclusion of that sixth nature (that even someone like Sakura is able to make use of!) would still prove Orochimaru wrong, as Sarutobi still wouldn't have been able to preform every technique in Konoha without it.

    The third databook mentions it's ability to master all five elements, which wouldn't be a great deal if anyone could do it.

    Spoiler: Rinnegan show


    So there's no way that Sarutobi could use all five elements or every technique in Konoha. It makes far more sense to presume that Orochimaru meant that Sarutobi knew of every technique in Konoha, which would have also explained his title as professor.

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  3. #122
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted xXan's Avatar
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    Re: Old Sarutobi vs Kakashi

    Curent Kakashi stomps this. The Kakashi from part one would get owned.

    Why Kakashi stomps? 1 word KAMUI. Yes one more peep that the almighty sharingan will 1 shot.

  4. #123
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Skidmore's Avatar
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    Re: Old Sarutobi vs Kakashi

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    the holder of these eyes can completely master the five elemental nature transformations that form the basis of ninjutsu.
    Completly Mastery, which in my point of view is Master it to a high degree. Jiraiya was impressed that he was able to complete master it at age of 10. And of course Kakashi was impressed, it doens't seems to be a easy feat, it might explain why Hiruzen was nicknamed The God of Shinobi.

    There is nothing saiying that is impossible to use all of five elements. It was never stated in canon. Even the Databook doesn't state it. And if the Databook does come to debate, it also states that Hiruzen was the strongest Hokage in history, which many people does not accept.

  5. #124
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    Re: Old Sarutobi vs Kakashi

    Quote Originally Posted by Skidmore View Post
    Completly Mastery, which in my point of view is Master it to a high degree. Jiraiya was impressed that he was able to complete master it at age of 10. And of course Kakashi was impressed, it doens't seems to be a easy feat, it might explain why Hiruzen was nicknamed The God of Shinobi.

    There is nothing saiying that is impossible to use all of five elements. It was never stated in canon. Even the Databook doesn't state it. And if the Databook does come to debate, it also states that Hiruzen was the strongest Hokage in history, which many people does not accept.
    And Kakshi wasn't impressed, he was confused. he couldn't understand why Kakuzu was able to use four elements until his special ability was revealed, at which point it then make sense for him. Why would that be the case if a person can learn more then three elements? Why would Kakashi need a difference reason to understand? It was basically shown that one can't use all five elements. Otherwise Nagato and Kakuzu wouldn't be such big deals.

    Not only that, but at no point anywhere was it claimed that Sarutobi could use all five elements. Only thing even implying such a feat is Orochimaru's statement, which I have already pointed out is false by the sheer fact that Sarutobi couldn't have been able to preform such Secret and Bloodline techniques. So exactly why should it be assumed that Sarutobi could use all the different natures when such a thing was never shown or stated?

    P.S. People don't believe that Sarutobi was the strongest Hokage because both Hashirama and Tobirama described as the best Hokages along with Minato also being praised.

  6. #125
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member GomuGomu_Getsuga's Avatar
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    Re: Old Sarutobi vs Kakashi

    Old Sarutobi takes this. He could fight the 1st and 2nd Hokage together evenly, while pushing out 1 hit K.O. jutsu. Kakashi would have to rely on mangekyou just to survive. Old Sarutobi only has to worry about 1 high level Jonin, instead of 3 Kage leveled ninja.

  7. #126
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    Re: Old Sarutobi vs Kakashi

    Kakashi fought against the two strongest Paths without any help or intel. And unlike the two Edo Hokages, they weren't standing around allowing him to do as he please. With his speed and Sarutobi having no viable defense, Kakashi can finish things with his Raikiri.

  8. #127
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member GomuGomu_Getsuga's Avatar
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    Re: Old Sarutobi vs Kakashi

    In no way, shape or form did the Kages stand around. Did you forget the environment changing Jutsu they were using against Sarutobi. Not to mention taijutsu and genjutsu.

    Kakashi didn't fight two paths. Kakashi, Choji and Choji's father fought them. Kakashi hardly survived against them, not battle them on par. Kakashi is cool and skillful, but not as much as the God of Ninja.

  9. #128
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    Re: Old Sarutobi vs Kakashi

    They did stand around quite a bit. Most of the fight they just stood there. The only time they actually moved was in the very beginning with the ninjutsu exchange, when Sarutobi attempted to hit Orochimaru, and then near the end of the fight with some taijustu.

    Kakashi did fight the two Paths. He was fighting them even before Chouji and Chouza appeared with the other ninjas. Kakashi was handling things find. Not only that, but had they not showed up, he already had a plan in motion to defeat them. With his ability to predict movement and employ genjutsus that could instantly knock someone out, not to mention Kamui, he has all he needs to quickly defeat Sarutobi.

  10. #129
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member GomuGomu_Getsuga's Avatar
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    Re: Old Sarutobi vs Kakashi

    Lets see Kakashi fight Orochimaru, Hashirama and LittleBrotherRama at the same time and manage to defeat all of them. (ALONE) They only stood around in the beginning. Enma started to hold them off. Then Hashirama used a genjutsu to blind Sarutobi.

  11. #130
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Skidmore's Avatar
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    Re: Old Sarutobi vs Kakashi

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    P.S. People don't believe that Sarutobi was the strongest Hokage because both Hashirama and Tobirama described as the best Hokages along with Minato also being praised.
    The problem is that Kishimoto stated it twice through Kabuto and Iruka, Databook I also states that.

    Orochimaru was mocking him by the fact that even the God of Shinobi was not able to overcome age, and pointed out that he never saw him under so much Strain, and Orochimaru actually fought Hiruzen around his 55-60, we can conclude that Hiruzen easily dominated the Sannin Genius.

    Actually no other Hokage showed anything that could potentially beat even Old Hiruzen apart from Minato's Speed, furthermore the Younger Hyped Sandaime. Hashirama Moukuton showed innefective against him, Nindaime didn't displayed enough power to overthrow him.

    I personally think that Hiruzen was trully able to controle the five elements, because there is nowhere in source material stating that he couldn't. And of course he was limited to the non-clan and and non-kekkei genkai jutsus. Nagato was stated to able to use any Ninjutsu he wants, and this is a fact, but IMO I think he can't use Susanoo, otherwise whe he wouldn't be untouchable.

  12. #131
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    Re: Old Sarutobi vs Kakashi

    Quote Originally Posted by GomuGomu_Getsuga View Post
    Lets see Kakashi fight Orochimaru, Hashirama and LittleBrotherRama at the same time and manage to defeat all of them. (ALONE) They only stood around in the beginning. Enma started to hold them off. Then Hashirama used a genjutsu to blind Sarutobi.
    If we're assuming that Kakashi is fighting the same versions as Sarutobi fought, then he would be able to handle all three without exhausting himself. They would give him plenty of time to figure out a plan and come up with a way to win. If we're assuming that they'll actually put up a serious fight, then Kakashi would still be able to do it, just not as easily. He would more then likely employ a clone to buy himself time. Since we've seen that genjutsu can be used on an Edo summon, Kakashi can use one to attempt to take them out, or at least delay them. Or he could use it on Orochimaru to force him to cancel the technique. Worst case scenario, as we have been told that Kamui can warp an entire person, Kakashi uses the three he has available to warp Orochimaru and the Edo Hokages to that other dimension, after which he takes a good rest.

    You may want to reread the fight, because they stood around more then that. Sarutobi starts the fight with his Fire Dragon Missile, Tobirama blocks it with a Water Wall and then shoots a Water Dragon which Sarutobi blocks with an Earth Wall, after which Hashirama using his Mokuton to trap Sarutobi. Sarutobi summons Enma to break him out, then goes into close combat with them dodging in order to attack Orochimaru. They kick him back, he places explosive tags on their leg, and they stand there regenerating. They continue to stand there while Sarutobi decides to use the Dead Demon Soul technique and Orochimaru taunts him. Finally, Hashirama covers the entire area in trees, which Sarutobi blocks. At that point, the Edo Hokages finally go on the offensive while Sarutobi create two clones and finally summons the Shinigami, at which point Hashirama using his Darkness genjutsu and the Edo Hokages attack him once. They then proceed to do nothing while Sarutobi has his flashback and gives his speech to Orochimaru. More standing around before they attack against with more taijutsu. More standing around while the Shinigami does what it does, followed by Sarutobi sending his clones to find the Edo Hokages and grab them while they again use more taijutsu. Sarutobi then pulls there souls out. As you can see, they stood around for a large portion of the fight doing nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skidmore View Post
    The problem is that Kishimoto stated it twice through Kabuto and Iruka, Databook I also states that.

    Orochimaru was mocking him by the fact that even the God of Shinobi was not able to overcome age, and pointed out that he never saw him under so much Strain, and Orochimaru actually fought Hiruzen around his 55-60, we can conclude that Hiruzen easily dominated the Sannin Genius.

    Actually no other Hokage showed anything that could potentially beat even Old Hiruzen apart from Minato's Speed, furthermore the Younger Hyped Sandaime. Hashirama Moukuton showed innefective against him, Nindaime didn't displayed enough power to overthrow him.

    I personally think that Hiruzen was trully able to controle the five elements, because there is nowhere in source material stating that he couldn't. And of course he was limited to the non-clan and and non-kekkei genkai jutsus. Nagato was stated to able to use any Ninjutsu he wants, and this is a fact, but IMO I think he can't use Susanoo, otherwise whe he wouldn't be untouchable.
    And Kishi has also stated that the two previous Hokages were the best and how Minato was the greatest and everything several times. Even Sarutobi deferred to Minato. Being able to defeat Orochimaru years ago doesn't mean much. Back then Orochimaru was in a mortal body, meaning he was killable unlike the current version. Not only that, but we have been told that Minato would have been able to defeat him had the former been alive, we have seen both Itachi and Sasuke beat him with quite a bit of ease in his current form, and Hanzo was able to him along with the other two Sannins at the same time during that past period. So even using Orochimaru as a base, we have several ninjas that are able to content with him in that feat and can assume that none on the other Kages would have much problem with a mortal Orochimaru.

    That's completely flawed reasoning. You claim they haven't shown anything to beat him, yet are completely ignoring Sarutobi didn't show anything to beat them either. using their Edo appearance as evidence is pointless, considering they barely did anything. Not to mention that since that time, we have been told quite bit more about them, like how Tobirama created Edo Tensei, had a space/time technique, what Mokuton can really do through Yamato, and how Hashirama was able to contend and defeat an EMS strengthen Madara. Meanwhile, what new information have we been given on Sarutobi? Nothing. In fact, he's not even being mentioned any more, instead Minato and Hashirama have taken the place of being most praised in Part Two.

    Like I stated before, there's no reason to believe such a thing because it was never shown or implied in the manga. Just because it wasn't said that he couldn't doesn't mean you should assume he can. By that logic, you would be assuming every ninja can use all five elements, since it was never stated they couldn't. Heck, I bet Sasuke can use Edo Tensei and Shiki Fuujin, since it was never said he couldn't. Faulty logic, especially since to use it you still have to change what Orochiamru said. Nagato's a whole different situation, because the Rinnegan is connected to the Sharingan and has already been shown to use one Sharingan based technique. It wouldn't be impossible for the Rinnegan to suddenly show a superior version of Susanoo like it's done with Izanagi.

  13. #132
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Skidmore's Avatar
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    Re: Old Sarutobi vs Kakashi

    Well, so our debate about this is over, because both pointed out our arguments, and both were not convinced by each other. Since the source material does not clearly bakup any of us, I won't say that you are wrong, since the debate is more speculative than actually based on facts.

    It's just that for me, Hashirama ability to control the bijuu, Tobirama ability to use space/time ninjutsu, and Hiruzen ability to use all jutsu in Konoha are all the same, we never saw, it was only stated.

  14. #133
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: Old Sarutobi vs Kakashi

    Well we technically have seen that Hashirama could control a Bijuu in the form of Yamato using Mokuton to control Naruto.

  15. #134
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Skidmore's Avatar
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    Re: Old Sarutobi vs Kakashi

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Well we technically have seen that Hashirama could control a Bijuu in the form of Yamato using Mokuton to control Naruto.
    Yes, yes i just remembered that, even though Yamato could only surpress, it really does prove Hashirama ability, since Yamato himself stated that his powers are nowhere near the Hokage.

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