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Thread: The boundaries of good and evil

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    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted THM Nindo's Avatar
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    Naruto The boundaries of good and evil

    Quote Originally Posted by bean View Post
    I dunno..in the manga, the line between good and evil has been drawn clearly with the exception of sasuke (to some extent).
    Depends... like we were arguing the other day, what is good and what is evil!?

    Is Danzou good or evil!?
    He's doing what he think is best to bring peace to Konoha, right!?

    But then is Pain evil!?
    He's doing what he think is best to bring peace in the whole world...
    In his heart, he wants peace... he think about the others and want peace for everyone...

    So what is being evil!? Thinking only about himself?!
    Then the true evil are people like Orochimaru and Kakuzu, who wants power for themselves only.

    As for Sasuke, he wants power, by any means, but does he want the power for himself?! Not really, he wants it to avenge his family and his brother...
    Is that evil!? Well, not too sure about it...

    IMO, the question about Good and Evil is far from being clear in this manga.

    Unless you want to go in this way :
    Those with Naruto = Good
    Those against Naruto = Evil

    That's the safest way since Naruto is the Good incarnated


    True love will conquer everything
    The question now is : which of those two loves, is the true one?!
    ___________________

    Jiraiya's timeline : here
    Zetsu, the strongest villain of Akatsuki : here

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  3. #2
    Registered User 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member jdw's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 435 Spoiler Discussion Thread

    This is a great analogy, actually. The arsonist is responsible for the circumstances that caused the firefighters to heroically decide to save people, but I think the firefighters are heroes who sacrificed their lives trying to save would-be victims rather than the victims themselves.


    If Madara said "I killed the fourth hokage, how many can say they killed a hokage?" I would think that people would say that he did not and that the fourth sacrificed himself to stop Madara from killing others.

    I am going to drop this now in order to get back on topic. Thanks for the exchange Bean.

    Quote Originally Posted by bean View Post
    edit:if you want a better analogy, how about a forest fire caused by arson where people die, including firemen trying to stop the fire...would you say that the people who created the fire had nothing to do with those who died, that they didn't kill them?
    .
    Last edited by jdw; February 12, 2009 at 02:51 PM.

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    Re: Naruto 435 Spoiler Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by cgpr4life2 View Post
    whether naruto is senju or not has yet to be revealed so to claim this is kinda of a stretch
    Somehow the thought that naruto is from the senju clan hurts my head on more than one level. I mean he didn't inherit their kekkai genkai (even though we don't know that for sure since he can't use both the earth and water elements yet), wouldn't that make him less special being the main character of the manga ?

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    Re: Naruto 435 Spoiler Discussion Thread

    To me there's a potential testimony of how great Minato really was if Madara fought Minato with the Kyuubi on his side. Though thinking about this I doubt this, because Gamabunta would have been of witness, he could have recognised Madara I'm sure and would report to Jiraiya, or it could be Bunta didn't see or knew Madara was of great importance. Then again to be able to hold your own against a full powered Kyuubi speaks volumes for Minato Namikaze anyway.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Remy's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 435 Spoiler Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by TheHomeMade Nindo View Post
    Depends... like we were arguing the other day, what is good and what is evil!?

    Is Danzou good or evil!?
    He's doing what he think is best to bring peace to Konoha, right!?

    But then is Pain evil!?
    He's doing what he think is best to bring peace in the whole world...
    In his heart, he wants peace... he think about the others and want peace for everyone...

    So what is being evil!? Thinking only about himself?!
    Then the true evil are people like Orochimaru and Kakuzu, who wants power for themselves only.

    As for Sasuke, he wants power, by any means, but does he want the power for himself?! Not really, he wants it to avenge his family and his brother...
    Is that evil!? Well, not too sure about it...

    IMO, the question about Good and Evil is far from being clear in this manga.

    Unless you want to go in this way :
    Those with Naruto = Good
    Those against Naruto = Evil

    That's the safest way since Naruto is the Good incarnated

    Following your logic all the biggest bastard of the universe good be good guy... Hey we killed an entire nation but we tought that was for the best of all...

    People are not good because they think they do the right thing.

    You would definately be refused in the police academy dude :P

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    Re: Naruto 435 Spoiler Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by TheHomeMade Nindo View Post
    Depends... like we were arguing the other day, what is good and what is evil!?

    Is Danzou good or evil!?
    He's doing what he think is best to bring peace to Konoha, right!?

    But then is Pain evil!?
    He's doing what he think is best to bring peace in the whole world...
    In his heart, he wants peace... he think about the others and want peace for everyone...

    So what is being evil!? Thinking only about himself?!
    Then the true evil are people like Orochimaru and Kakuzu, who wants power for themselves only.

    As for Sasuke, he wants power, by any means, but does he want the power for himself?! Not really, he wants it to avenge his family and his brother...
    Is that evil!? Well, not too sure about it...

    IMO, the question about Good and Evil is far from being clear in this manga.

    Unless you want to go in this way :
    Those with Naruto = Good
    Those against Naruto = Evil

    That's the safest way since Naruto is the Good incarnated
    doing what you think is best and doing the the best for something are two different things. Hitler could be argued to have been doing what he thought was best for the world, so is he not evil? What pein is doing, is evil. What danzou is doing, not doing, and has done can be considered evil. Evil is not only about intent, but about actions as well. Did pein really have to destroy konoha to reach peace? did he have to take part in the deaths of the hosts? Evil and good, to me, as I said has been clearly drawn in this manga.

    edit: as for sasuke, he hasn't really done anything evil to the extent that pein has done, but he has, barely, stepped to the dark side by "capturing" the hachibi (granted he actually didn't, but he doesn't know that he didn't). However, that little flashback to his konoha buddies gives me the feeling that he did it for them...still, do the means justify the end? Up until that point though, he wasn't doing anything evil. He spared people's lives and didn't kill unjustly. Bah...let's move on.
    Last edited by bean; February 12, 2009 at 02:57 PM.

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    Re: Naruto 435 Spoiler Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Remy View Post
    Following your logic all the biggest bastard of the universe good be good guy... Hey we killed an entire nation but we tought that was for the best of all...

    People are not good because they think they do the right thing.

    You would definately be refused in the police academy dude :P
    Yeah, but you know how it is.
    A hero for a nation is a tyrant for another.

    Good and Evil changes depending on which side you are on.

    As I said, since we're following Naruto's story.
    The best way to say which one is good or evil is to see if he's with or against Naruto.


    True love will conquer everything
    The question now is : which of those two loves, is the true one?!
    ___________________

    Jiraiya's timeline : here
    Zetsu, the strongest villain of Akatsuki : here

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    Re: Naruto 435 Spoiler Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by jdw112 View Post
    This is a great analogy, actually. The arsonist is responsible for the circumstances that caused the firefighters to heroically decide to save people, but I think the firefighters are heroes who sacrificed their lives trying to save would-be victims rather than the victims themselves.
    still doesn't take the responsibility away from the arsonist. They technically killed all those who died cause of the fire. Their actions caused the deaths, hence, they are responsible for them.

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    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member vejita_sempai's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 435 Spoiler Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Remy View Post
    Of course he is... It<s the remaining bond between naruto and sasuke...

    Madara killed both of their family. (speculation)
    <hr noshade size="1">


    Sasuke killed a lizard... he's evil.
    loll but is the truth .... this is the evidence


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    Re: Naruto 435 Spoiler Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by TheHomeMade Nindo View Post
    Yeah, but you know how it is.
    A hero for a nation is a tyrant for another.

    Good and Evil changes depending on which side you are on.

    As I said, since we're following Naruto's story.
    The best way to say which one is good or evil is to see if he's with or against Naruto.
    Like Bean said... That would mean Hitler was a good guy because he thought he was doing the good thing. Does'nt make any sense. We both come from the same place i'd like to agree with you but just can't sorr..

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    Re: Naruto 435 Spoiler Discussion Thread

    Depends on point of view. Hitler was seen as a saviour to many. While those not German begged to differ. While looking at it, it's hard to see who would be in favour for Pain's ideal, which could potentially destroy the world, unless that person was guranteed his or her's safety. However Danzou is more similar to Hitler, where some who are fully Pro-Konoha would support actions taken by Danzou.

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    Re: Naruto 435 Spoiler Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by bean View Post
    doing what you think is best and doing the the best for something are two different things. Hitler could be argued to have been doing what he thought was best for the world, so is he not evil? What pein is doing, is evil. What danzou is doing, not doing, and has done can be considered evil. Evil is not only about intent, but about actions as well. Did pein really have to destroy konoha to reach peace? did he have to take part in the deaths of the hosts? Evil and good, to me, as I said has been clearly drawn in this manga.
    Okay, but then is Itachi evil!?

    He killed an entire clan because he though that was the best thing to do for the peace.

    ... I'm not against you guys, I'm just saying that "criminal" and "evil" is not the same thing. Being evil is having a "black heart" and thinking only of himself, wanting to rule the world with chaos and things like that.

    IMO, Pain isn't that evil. His quest for peace is the proof that he doesn't have a "black heart".

    Danzou is more evil than Pain, because he wants Konoha to be the strongest and that's a quest for power.


    True love will conquer everything
    The question now is : which of those two loves, is the true one?!
    ___________________

    Jiraiya's timeline : here
    Zetsu, the strongest villain of Akatsuki : here

  15. #13
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Remy's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 435 Spoiler Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by T.D.A View Post
    To me there's a potential testimony of how great Minato really was if Madara fought Minato with the Kyuubi on his side. Though thinking about this I doubt this, because Gamabunta would have been of witness, he could have recognised Madara I'm sure and would report to Jiraiya, or it could be Bunta didn't see or knew Madara was of great importance. Then again to be able to hold your own against a full powered Kyuubi speaks volumes for Minato Namikaze anyway.
    You mean how great Madara was...

    He beated Minato... used the Kyubbi and destroy the entire Uchiha clan when manipulating everyone.

    He rocks as a villain seriouxly

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    Re: Naruto 435 Spoiler Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by TheHomeMade Nindo View Post
    Okay, but then is Itachi evil!?

    He killed an entire clan because he though that was the best thing to do for the peace.

    ... I'm not against you guys, I'm just saying that "criminal" and "evil" is not the same thing. Being evil is having a "black heart" and thinking only of himself, wanting to rule the world with chaos and things like that.

    IMO, Pain isn't that evil. His quest for peace is the proof that he doesn't have a "black heart".

    Danzou is more evil than Pain, because he wants Konoha to be the strongest and that's a quest for power.

    It's valid that Pain's point of reasoning is not evil, while to many his actions or means are evil. Murder is often seen as an evil act. Rather I think Pain is more delusional to say the least than actually to be labelled, "evil".

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    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member vejita_sempai's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 435 Spoiler Discussion Thread

    i'm in agreement with Bean ...in the real life like in this manga "Evil is not only about intent, but about actions as well."


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