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Thread: Claymore vol 17 (chap 90 - 95) Discussion

  1. #181
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    Re: Claymore 93 Discussion / 94 prediction

    i think currently the skill levels are:
    Claire and friends < riful <Priscilla(hungry one) <= Alice/Beth/Eaters < new form(raphaela).
    If alice and beth can defeat Raphaela then the build up from the past few chapters are just wasted -very anticlimactic.

    I think Riful will almost die but Alice and company are interrupted by Claire and company and that fight further interrupted by Raphaela. Priscilla and Raki are probably too far away to make it and i dont think a hungry Priscilla is able to beat Alice/Beth and eaters at this point especially with Raki as extra luggage.

  2. #182
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Sportgal1's Avatar
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    Re: Claymore 93 Discussion / 94 prediction

    Didn't Riful say that she was about equal to alicia/beth, that alicia and beth were just another abyssal one? Then it would go more like Ghosts < Riful=Alicia/Beth < Priscilla < New Form. I don't include the Abyss Feeders because they're really only used to target awakeneds, i depends how long they've been targeting that specific awakened.

    I really, really hope Riful doesn't die. We already lost Isley, we need Riful. Actually, i would've thought that Priscilla would be more upset if Isley had died, strange lol.
    Last edited by Sportgal1; July 07, 2009 at 06:33 PM.

  3. #183
    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member gernot's Avatar
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    Re: Claymore 93 Discussion / 94 prediction

    Quote Originally Posted by Sportgal1 View Post
    Didn't Riful say that she was about equal to alicia/beth, that alicia and beth were just another abyssal one?
    Hhm, I don't think Riful actually knows anything specific about Alicia or Beth, having never met them. We know that 7 years ago, Alicia herself thought that she was still weaker than Riful. However, we have to assume that she has continued to become stronger, while Riful probably hasn't. At least the organization is pretty certain that they are stronger, or they wouldn't have sent them.

    If Riful is going to get out of this one, then my guess is that she will have to break the soul link, probably by attacking Beth directly. She's been pretty good at figuring out everyone's strengths and weaknesses so far. Also, the abyssal feeders react to sudden movement and might attack Alicia herself, so I think it's likely that Riful might get to finish off the abyssel feeders before it comes to the fight with Alicia.

    Last unknown is of course Rafaela x Luciela. Normally, I don't think it would particularly care about the fight between Alicia and Riful, but it might identify with or feel some sort of bond to the twins, given that Rafaela and Luciela used to do something quite similar. I could imagine various scenarios ranging from helping the twins, to killing them if they are on the verge of awakening, to interfering with their soul link, possibly even controlling them, to somehow getting them to awaken or merge as well, thus removing them from the organisations ranks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sportgal1 View Post
    Actually, i would've thought that Priscilla would be more upset if Isley had died, strange lol.
    I'm not sure how attached Priscilla ever was to Isley, but I would imagine that she doesn't know yet that he died. She's even further away from the event than Galatea was...

  4. #184
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member kaliayev's Avatar
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    Re: Claymore 93 Discussion / 94 prediction

    Quote Originally Posted by gernot View Post
    If Riful is going to get out of this one, then my guess is that she will have to break the soul link, probably by attacking Beth directly. She's been pretty good at figuring out everyone's strengths and weaknesses so far. Also, the abyssal feeders react to sudden movement and might attack Alicia herself, so I think it's likely that Riful might get to finish off the abyssel feeders before it comes to the fight with Alicia.
    Yes, but that's the major problem; the twins may not even have to use the soul link to defeat Riful (if they don't, it would certainly be wiser to save it for the unknown entity). While claymores, Raphaela and Luciela were equals in power. This should hold true for Alicia and Beth, especially given the fact that they were neck and neck when moving to Riful's location. With Riful already damaged, and likely to receive a little more pain from the feeders, I imagine they can defeat her with simple teamwork. After all, the twins are both abyssal potential claymores.


    You're right though, it would be interesting if the merged abyssal tried to manipulate the soul link. Given its past experience with the technique, it couldn't be too difficult (still betting on Galatea doing it, though XD).
    Last edited by kaliayev; July 08, 2009 at 02:09 AM.
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  5. #185
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Sportgal1's Avatar
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    Re: Claymore 93 Discussion / 94 prediction

    For Comparison, here are Alicia and Beth's databook stats.

    Spoiler show

    Spoiler show

    And here is Rafaela's.
    Spoiler show


    If anyone could translate these, that would be amazing.

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  7. #186
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    Re: Claymore 93 Discussion / 94 prediction

    Quote Originally Posted by kaliayev View Post
    Yes, but that's the major problem; the twins may not even have to use the soul link to defeat Riful (if they don't, it would certainly be wiser to save it for the unknown entity). While claymores, Raphaela and Luciela were equals in power. This should hold true for Alicia and Beth, especially given the fact that they were neck and neck when moving to Riful's location. With Riful already damaged, and likely to receive a little more pain from the feeders, I imagine they can defeat her with simple teamwork. After all, the twins are both abyssal potential claymores.


    You're right though, it would be interesting if the merged abyssal tried to manipulate the soul link. Given its past experience with the technique, it couldn't be too difficult (still betting on Galatea doing it, though XD).
    They are equal in power, whoever they cant win without the soul link, yes they are strong enought to achieve the streght of an abysmall one when awaken whoever we all know/have seen the huge gap in power every claymore gets when they awaken so if awakened they are pretty much at the same level as riful as claymores they cant win a real fight against her.I dont the feeders will be of any more use riful will prolly kill the rest soon and their purpose was never to fight they were used just to track her, it sure is a plus that they could damage her but if u consider how huge rifuls awakened form really is and the fact losing part of her head didnt made her panic the damaged she susteined must not be that big deal.This is just especullation but i think the org. send alicia/beth because they are sure they will win or in worst case scenario what happened when isley and lucciela fought is gonna happen all over again the winner is always weak after the battle some claymores or more feeders would be enought to finish rifuls in a weakened condition.

  8. #187
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member kaliayev's Avatar
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    Re: Claymore 93 Discussion / 94 prediction

    @unholy

    Heh, yes there is a significant leap in power after awakening, especially in Priscilla's case. However, saying they can't defeat Riful as claymores is ridiculous. After all, we've never seen them fight as claymores. They're S-class in yoki and A+ in every other category, except leadership. Meanwhile, you all insist that Teresa could have taken on an abyssal one on her own. Of course, she did manage to defeat the awakened Rose on her own, though Rose's stats are unknown. The only two categories Teresa had the twins beat on were perception and leadership, with the latter of which not mattering, unless you're Miria. If Teresa can defeat an abyssal one without awakening, then even more so for the twins, since there are two of them. Jeez, make up your minds. Either Teresa couldn't defeat an abyssal as a claymore or the twins can. Hell, even if the former, the latter could also be true simply because there are two fighters, as opposed to one.

    In addition, one has to take what happens after awakening into process. Like you said, significant leap in power. Beyond that, it seems that all the wounds one received while a claymore vanish after awakening. That is, one could be on the brink of death and nullify that state by awakening. Given this, wouldn't it be wiser to exhaust as much of one's available energy before awakening, especially when an even stronger enemy looms on the horizon?

    Hmmm, there's also the fact that they're practically partially awakened beings. In theory, because their souls are merged during the link and Alicia has experienced awakening and returning, both would be classified as partially awakened beings as they have both "experienced" partial awakening. At the very least, Alicia fits into the category. Such individuals are free to ignore their "limit," even going as far as awakening instantaneously (i.e. Clare's willful awakening of limbs in Pieta and Alicia's awakening in Cognates). The twins, at the very least Alicia, should be capable of fighting above 80% without being forced to awaken (that's a huge advantage they have over Teresa, assuming Teresa wasn't a partially awakened being).
    Last edited by kaliayev; July 09, 2009 at 04:13 AM.
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  9. #188
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    Re: Claymore 93 Discussion / 94 prediction

    It's difficult to say but when i see the last chapter. I see clearly Clare awaken in raciela's body or her body is just ejected ?
    She need to be more powerful. When you say that riful=beth/Alicia < Priscillia < Raciela it's ok but they didn't say that in another land they are more powerful warriors ?

  10. #189
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    Re: Claymore 93 Discussion / 94 prediction

    @kaliayev

    Well first of all we could never measure theresas power we dont know how strong she would be if awakened she could be the same as an abysmall or to a level similar to priscilla, all we really know is power claymores gain when awakening is proportional to how strong she is as a claymore (thats why riful was looking for strong claymores to force awakening).While we can not measure theresas strenght and it is just especulation if she could win against an abysmall or not we can measure alicias/beth power since it is stated that when awakened their power is at the same level as other abysmall, in every situation we have seen the power after awakening is alot bigger than the one of the former claymore so if they are on the same level as riful when awakened we know for sure they cant win as claymores, but i like the thought of harming her as claymores and awakening after susteining some damage to heal and finish the fight as awakeneds.
    The other problem i see is the ranking used on the claymores i dont think it is very accuracy, like one claymore can be alot stronger than the other and both can be classified as rank B, so them being on the same rank means nothing, priscilla is on the same rank as the twins and theresa whoever after awakening she became the stroger living creature on the island, i dont think she is a special case of awakening she was either stronger or had more dorment power that was awakened when she transformed, still i think hers like any other awakeing respects the proportion stronger claymores = stronger awakened.

  11. #190
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member kaliayev's Avatar
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    Re: Claymore 93 Discussion / 94 prediction

    @unholy

    Teresa's power has been measured. Here: http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showt...t=17996&page=2. In terms of yoki power, they have to be on similar levels. Teresa's main advantage would be her perception, which is recognized as the best skill ever cultivated by a claymore. However, this would only allow her to accomplish more at a given level of yoki release than other claymores (given how limited her perception was in the fight against Priscilla, I honestly doubt Teresa's perception would work as well against abyssal ones, and this would put Alicia or Beth on more equal terms with Teresa, at least against abyssal ones. Further support for this would be Isley's arrows. He never seemed to target specific body parts, though targeting the head or core of an opponent would allow him to easily overwhelm his opponent. This would suggest that the yoki tracking arrows can only track an entity on the whole, just like when Teresa could only track Priscilla's body on the whole.). That is, a claymore of the same yoki rank would simply have to release more yoki to perform the same tasks. Teresa used released 10% of her yoki to utterly destroy the awakened Rose. Let’s say one of the twins would have to use roughly 15% to utterly destroy the awakened Rose.

    Also, based on the data book information provided by generous posters, the twins outclass Teresa in terms of strength, agility, and spirit. I repeat, there are two of them, each having these rankings. Now then, let's take two abyssal ones (hell, why not Isley and Riful) and imagine them fighting an awakened Luciela while still claymores. Who do you think would win?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unholy View Post
    still i think hers like any other awakeing respects the proportion stronger claymores = stronger awakened.
    Her awakening wasn't the same. She literally bypassed the routine process (steadily increase in rank and power and eventually awaken). She seemed to have what could almost be classified as a double awakening, similar to the massive power one gains from partially awakening and later awakening. Let's look at Clare. Disregarding Ilena's arm, there's no chance in hell her original awakened form, back when she nearly awoke in Rabona, would have been as powerful as her form in Pieta. Priscilla's awakening was entirely unique, just as Clare's partial awakening and limb awakening were unique. Here's another example: http://www.onemanga.com/Claymore/46/24/ (aiiii, why the hell didn't she release in Rabona? T.T)

    @people working on data book
    Does the book indicate what the difference between black, grey, and white is on the bars used to measure stats?

    p.s. Now that I think more about it, Riful may be able to escape the abyss feeders if she’s willing to sacrifice a few body parts to serve as decoys. Sigh, it’s such a shame they aren’t hunting Duff, because that guy would be impossible to track with his endless supply of decoy rods.

    p.p.s. Raphaela was classified as an A in yoki. Priscilla was an A+, though Teresa’s assessment of her suggested that the former’s yoki rank would have surpassed S in time, Priscilla wasn’t able to effectively tap her yoki, and her yoki rank after awakening appears to surpass what an A+ ranked claymore would have been capable of. This would suggest that one only need to be ranked A in yoki to be classified as an abyssal potential. While we don’t specifically know the yoki ranks for Riful or Isley, Luciela and Isley were evenly matched, which further suggests that Isley was only ranked A in yoki. Given the prolonged stalemate between Riful and Isley, before Luciela even stepped onto the scene, they would have had similar yoki ranks while claymores. That is, had she been S or A+ ranked, there wouldn’t have been a stalemate.
    Last edited by kaliayev; July 09, 2009 at 08:32 PM. Reason: more evidence
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  12. #191
    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member gernot's Avatar
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    Re: Claymore 93 Discussion / 94 prediction

    I understand that it's fun to look at the stats in the data book, but I seriously doubt that the people who wrote the data book spent nearly as much time thinking about it as some of the people here :-)

    When you look at how the Claymores themselves compare their strength, it usually only considers youki / youriki. Some, like Priscilla (as a Claymore) or Miata, have high youriki but not enough experience to make proper use of it, so it's only considered a latent / potential strength. But everything else, physical strength, agility, speed etc. seems to be derived from the youriki. Audrey was overwhelmed by Riful's youriki, Denebu and Helen were done in by Isley's, and Riful decided not to fight the merged being simply because of its youriki. The organization's ranking of the warriors is also mostly based on youki (it's not like the warriors have tournaments or anything like that, although I wonder who measures the youki for the organization...).

    So, since everything is based off of youki, that must mean that Claymore can increase their youriki through training. Clearly, Alicia and Beth have gone through some pretty tough training, to the point where their youriki now surpasses what they believe Riful's youriki to be. However, it seems that neither of them ever fight youma like normal Claymores, and we don't know if they have any experience at all fighting in their Claymore form. For all we know, it is quite possible that they have always been training for fighting in awakened + soul link form. Even so, defending against attacks on Beth must have been part of their training, if they had a capable instructor at all, so it's not going to be too easy for Riful to make use of this weakness, once she realizes it.

    Maybe Riful could also train and grow stronger, and maybe Teresa could also have grown stronger over time, but she never had a reason to, since she had no competition. So maybe that's why the twins are now ranked higher than Teresa in the data book, if there's even that much thought behind it.

    On a side note, the organization got pretty lucky that both of their experiments with sisters / twins turned out number ones. I mean, soul link or not, the twins could have turned out to be two number 40s, and their awakened form could have been the kind that Duff would kill with a sneeze...

  13. #192
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member kaliayev's Avatar
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    Re: Claymore 93 Discussion / 94 prediction

    Quote Originally Posted by gernot View Post
    On a side note, the organization got pretty lucky that both of their experiments with sisters / twins turned out number ones. I mean, soul link or not, the twins could have turned out to be two number 40s, and their awakened form could have been the kind that Duff would kill with a sneeze...
    Not really. I mean, the twins were probably relatively weak when they started but the org put a great deal of effort into steadily increasing the twins' power. Additionally, occurrences of awakening and returning seem to contribute greatly to one's growth. Finally, I imagine the org saves their best samples for when circumstances warrant use of said samples (i.e. Priscilla was being bred to replace Teresa so they probably used excellent yoma dna in the hybridization process).

    Quote Originally Posted by gernot View Post
    Clearly, Alicia and Beth have gone through some pretty tough training, to the point where their youriki now surpasses what they believe Riful's youriki to be. However, it seems that neither of them ever fight youma like normal Claymores, and we don't know if they have any experience at all fighting in their Claymore form. For all we know, it is quite possible that they have always been training for fighting in awakened + soul link form. Even so, defending against attacks on Beth must have been part of their training, if they had a capable instructor at all, so it's not going to be too easy for Riful to make use of this weakness, once she realizes it.
    Ah, but there's so much skill underlying the soul link. First, they have to be able to perceive and manipulate yoki flow in order to align their yoki for the soul link. This means that they'll be able to read most enemies, and possibly their attacks, as well as deflect attacks through yoki manipulation. Second, combat ability. If they hadn't trained in that, they wouldn't be able to fight as effectively. Third, body modification. Their power has been steadily increased through the significant strain the organization puts on their bodies. Finally, their training, up until Cognates, was done exclusively in claymore form. The process of training them to use the soul link wasn't completed until Cognates.

    There's probably more behind this page than we assumed: http://www.onemanga.com/Claymore/49/30/. Beth wasn't mentioned in this conversation. Alicia is talking exclusively about herself. They wanted to know how much damage Alicia could do to Riful on her own. That, combined with the fact that the soul link hadn't been completed at that point, means she didn't factor the soul link into her assessment. We, myself included, may have been severely underestimating the twins up to now (probably, still do, though I'm beginning to realize by just how much). In fact, the use of the soul link was probably fairly unnecessary in the context of Cognates. It wasn't that Alicia and Beth couldn't defeat the incoming awakened beings as claymore. It was a test run and a spectacle (must let the abyssals and awakened beings know that they can't freely mess with the organization anymore). The last test run had failed miserably, resulting in the third abyssal. The "hair's breadth from...ruinous crisis" would be a sigh of relief in anticipation of multiple abyssal attacks after the tacit truce was broken. After all, if they're incapable of defeating at least two (they would have ultimately been prepped to eliminate three), then they couldn't really have been designed to eliminate the abyssal ones (if they defeat one and are left crippled, then the org would be in the position that Isley would have been in had he attacked Luciela alone). The twins were "completed" before the feeders had been made, so the latter wouldn't have factored into the org's original understanding of the situation. The feeders simply make things easier for the twins, though the merged abyssal might have something to say about that. The feeders may also be an act of spite by the organization. What better way to get back at Isley and his arrogance than to have him be slowly eaten by entities created via the remains of his former subordinates?

    p.s. You are right, though. I might be overanalyzing. XD

    p.p.s. The power of awakened beings is static. How many times do I have to say this?
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  14. #193
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    Re: Claymore 93 Discussion / 94 prediction

    one thing i found strange (maybe explained previously?) is how the organization is ignoring Priscilla. Surely they know her existence and that she is more powerful than Easley yet they are not actively hunting her... Kinda weird.

  15. #194
    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member gernot's Avatar
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    Re: Claymore 93 Discussion / 94 prediction

    That Priscilla is more powerful than Easley or Riful is pretty well hidden. Riful only knows because she met Priscilla in person. The org probably expected to find Priscilla with Easley, but may not have been too concerned that they didn't find her there if they consider her weaker. They can't send the abyssal feeders out to look for her because they don't have any body parts of hers, and she's been keeping a very low profile since joining up with Easley. I would think that Rune's report, now that she has escaped from Riful, is probably the first they'll have heard of Priscilla in years, assuming they recognize the girl that Rune met as Priscilla.

  16. #195
    Scanlator 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member L0ki's Avatar
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    Re: Claymore 93 Discussion / 94 prediction

    Quote Originally Posted by Sportgal1 View Post
    For Comparison, here are Alicia and Beth's databook stats.

    Spoiler show

    Spoiler show

    And here is Rafaela's.
    Spoiler show


    If anyone could translate these, that would be amazing.
    The stats are:
    Youki
    Agility
    Strength
    Mental
    Sense
    Leadership

    S is a special level of ability. A + indicates an above average ability.

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