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View Poll Results: Who'll emerge victorious?

Voters
160. You may not vote on this poll
  • Urahara Kisuke

    97 60.63%
  • Kyoraku Shunsui

    63 39.38%
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Thread: Urahara Kisuke vs Kyoraku Shunsui

  1. #511
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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    Re: Urahara Kisuke vs Kyoraku Shunsui

    No vizard lost to the espada, their battles were interrupted.

    - The reason I said Yama likely neglected senkei, is because Byakuya said he only showed it to one other person other than Ichigo. It's unlikely he showed it to Yama simply for a test.

    I didn't state Yama neglected Urahara's intelligence, but his inventions and kido. Your not using the same logic i'm using.

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  3. #512
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Crystal Black's Avatar
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    Re: Urahara Kisuke vs Kyoraku Shunsui

    No Vizard lost to an espada, but they definitely seemed as if they were on the verge of losing.

  4. #513
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Takahashi's Avatar
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    Re: Urahara Kisuke vs Kyoraku Shunsui

    Quote Originally Posted by ki0 View Post
    No vizard lost to the espada, their battles were interrupted.

    - The reason I said Yama likely neglected senkei, is because Byakuya said he only showed it to one other person other than Ichigo. It's unlikely he showed it to Yama simply for a test.

    I didn't state Yama neglected Urahara's intelligence, but his inventions and kido. Your not using the same logic i'm using.
    That's interesting about Senkei, never thought about that.

    As far as Urahara, I don't think he needs to be defended from Yama's words, as it's a weak argument anyway. We should be going by feats anyway, not hype.

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  6. #514
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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    Re: Urahara Kisuke vs Kyoraku Shunsui

    About Yama's statement. If Yama statement is to be taken at face value, than Shunsui and Ukitake are stronger than Yama. Yama did say they were stronger than all that came before them and after them. Yama was talking about their peers.

    EDIT:
    Actually Yama said this: "...and when it came to battle you both were transcendent. No one could match either of you" It was past tense. So what was truly said is correct.
    Last edited by En Yang Ji; May 19, 2011 at 09:18 PM.

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  8. #515
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member cloudo's Avatar
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    Re: Urahara Kisuke vs Kyoraku Shunsui

    ACTUALLY he says no one before you and no one since. If were going off feats Urahara's main feat was the use of AN INVENTION, that he admitted Aizen wouldn't have let happen if he weren't CARELESS. We can play the word games all day, it's amazing people try to find a way to discredit the strongest guy in the manga's words, but search for complimentary words of their favorite character. When someone else brings up the same thing about Shunsui, it's all this 'Yama neglected such and such', but the same thing doesn't apply to Urahara's fans? This argument is a joke, you defending Urahara by playing down what the manga states gotta be either joking or seriously biased. And what does senkei have to do with neglecting anyone? You still have yet to answer the 1st question posed to you. Now you're neglecting another. How does Yama even gauge Shunsui, when he appointed him captain all those years ago without mention that he had to show bankai to become captain? On that note, wasn't Yama even impressed with the Shunpo he just did? Did he not say you seem to be able to travel quite far in one leap? So I guess Yama even was impressed more that he had been even better than when he last saw him in action. But of course Shunsui can't improve, only Urahara by the logic in this thread.
    Last edited by cloudo; May 19, 2011 at 10:16 PM.

  9. #516
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Urahara Kisuke vs Kyoraku Shunsui

    I believe Yama said something along the lines of "I was proud of you... as if you were my own sons" - this indicates the close relationship Yama has with Shunsui and Ukitake, which further implies that he would have considerable knowledge of their abilities, beyond his knowledge of the abilities of any other Captain. So, even disregarding the hundred years that he has had no contact with Urahara or the Vizards, it is likely that he would have a more complete knowledge of Shunsui and Ukitake's abilities than Urahara's or the Vizards'.

    While your remark about Yama's Shunpo comment is valid, and indicates that he hadn't seen Shunsui perform at least this Shunpo move in a while, Shunsui will not have the same acceleration of ability as Urahara. This is for a number of reasons:

    1) Urahara, having obtained Bankai in 3 days, shows an extraordinary amount of talent as a Shinigami, beyond the level of Shunsui in my opinion.
    2) I believe that as a Captain's level of seniority increases, their rate of improvement drops - for instance, a junior Captain going from an immature Bankai to a mastered Bankai would display an immense improvement in this time, whereas after Bankai has been mastered, there is a lot less to improve on, and improvement becomes more incremental. It's a similar case with the other Shinigami abilities imo.
    3) Shunsui has a lot more distractions in SS than Urahara does in his shop, and I would imagine Shunsui spends a lot of time he could be training either chasing after women or getting drunk, based on his personality, whereas Urahara built training areas in the vicinity of his shop, which leads me to believe that he was training pretty intensively over the last 100 years, not to mention that he has the ultimate Kido master as a sparring partner.

    When Yama says "your strengths have always been above the rest", I take it as a reference to their academy days, as in they were at the top of their class back at this time, since at this stage it was actually far easier for Yama to compare their strengths with their peers. I don't believe that it's a comparison to the current or recent Shinigami Captains, purely because there's less basis for comparison since he can't know every ability of every Captain, and he isn't assessing them simultaneously in an academy setting. So all in all, I don't believe Yama's statement to be sufficient to shield Shunsui from losing to Urahara.

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  11. #517
    The Original 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member thornofcarrion's Avatar
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    Re: Urahara Kisuke vs Kyoraku Shunsui

    Quote Originally Posted by ShootToKill View Post
    I believe Yama said something along the lines of "I was proud of you... as if you were my own sons" - this indicates the close relationship Yama has with Shunsui and Ukitake, which further implies that he would have considerable knowledge of their abilities, beyond his knowledge of the abilities of any other Captain. So, even disregarding the hundred years that he has had no contact with Urahara or the Vizards, it is likely that he would have a more complete knowledge of Shunsui and Ukitake's abilities than Urahara's or the Vizards'.

    While your remark about Yama's Shunpo comment is valid, and indicates that he hadn't seen Shunsui perform at least this Shunpo move in a while, Shunsui will not have the same acceleration of ability as Urahara. This is for a number of reasons:

    1) Urahara, having obtained Bankai in 3 days, shows an extraordinary amount of talent as a Shinigami, beyond the level of Shunsui in my opinion.
    2) I believe that as a Captain's level of seniority increases, their rate of improvement drops - for instance, a junior Captain going from an immature Bankai to a mastered Bankai would display an immense improvement in this time, whereas after Bankai has been mastered, there is a lot less to improve on, and improvement becomes more incremental. It's a similar case with the other Shinigami abilities imo.
    3) Shunsui has a lot more distractions in SS than Urahara does in his shop, and I would imagine Shunsui spends a lot of time he could be training either chasing after women or getting drunk, based on his personality, whereas Urahara built training areas in the vicinity of his shop, which leads me to believe that he was training pretty intensively over the last 100 years, not to mention that he has the ultimate Kido master as a sparring partner.

    When Yama says "your strengths have always been above the rest", I take it as a reference to their academy days, as in they were at the top of their class back at this time, since at this stage it was actually far easier for Yama to compare their strengths with their peers. I don't believe that it's a comparison to the current or recent Shinigami Captains, purely because there's less basis for comparison since he can't know every ability of every Captain, and he isn't assessing them simultaneously in an academy setting. So all in all, I don't believe Yama's statement to be sufficient to shield Shunsui from losing to Urahara.
    I have said that many times before when the same has been quoted. What Yama said about Shunsui and Ukitake isn't a valid basis to argue about their strength. Especially, Yama did not know or still knows how strong Isshin and Urahara has become after their departure from SS. Yourichi is another character I can think of. Anyway, lets not get into these characters or we will be sailing in the seas of off-topic-ness :3.

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  13. #518
    Cosmic Inflation 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Miyagi's Avatar
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    Re: Urahara Kisuke vs Kyoraku Shunsui

    Everybody keeps a secret in Bleach, they all have hidden abilities that nobody else knows about. lol I bet Tessai has some secret powerful kido spells exclusive to himself, Urahara has a couple of inventions that he didn't mention to Yoruichi or Shunsui has a few games that even Ukitake isn't aware of. Nobody can know of the full abilities of another person unless he can mindprobe him. lol

    I’m a bit skeptical about these kinds of words unless they are supported by battle performance. To be honest, I didn't see anything from Shunsui and Urahara that suggests either can overwhelm the other in combat. IMHO both of them are very strong and talented shinigami and both of them deserve praise for their extraordinary abilities.

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  15. #519
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Kugo Ginjo's Avatar
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    Re: Urahara Kisuke vs Kyoraku Shunsui

    Urahara was heavily implied to be Aizen's equal.

    Aizen's feats are much better then Shunsui's

    So Urahara > Shunsui.

  16. #520
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member cloudo's Avatar
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    Re: Urahara Kisuke vs Kyoraku Shunsui

    Word play, again? Funny how words are perceived wrong when they don't involve your 'favorite character', but Aizen says we are no longer equals and all of a sudden Urahara's the best? Let's disregard what one character says, because we think it might be biased towards Shunsui, but we will regard another character's words because he's Aizen? wow, that's funny. No one cared to elaborate on what I brought up though. So much for sticking with the manga.

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  18. #521
    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member emanresu's Avatar
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    Re: Urahara Kisuke vs Kyoraku Shunsui

    Aizen is inferior to Urahara.
    Urahara in base will rape Shunsui just like how Urahara rape Aizen with only shunpo, gigai, kido, cuff and of course his haxxx analytical mind. No shikai needed.

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