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Thread: Shishido

  1. #16
    MH Senpai 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Atobe the king's Avatar
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    Re: Shishido

    I have to agree with Dansan they can't improve at the same rate, that makes no sense in not only real life tennis but any manga period.

    Akaya's leap from semi's to finals was much greater than Kaido's leap from semi's to finals.
    When's Prince of Tennis Smash Hit 4

  2. #17
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Fayte's Avatar
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    Re: Shishido

    Quote Originally Posted by Dansan1 View Post
    That logically MAKES NO SENSE.

    All characters improve therefore they improve at the same rate?

    You need a course in how to avoid fallacious arguments.


    Oh, and I'll give you one example.

    Sengoku. No manga improvement. NONE. He was the same v Momo and v Kamio. (I heard he got stuff in the anime, but not in manga cannon)

    And we know he beat Richard but even in that victory due to how little was shown we still saw no direct improvement.


    But more importantly there are MANY other examples of important and popular characters SOARING in improvements compared to the peripheral guys.

    Do you honestly believe that the saint Rudolph pair improved at the same rate as the Golden Pair? Or that Shinji improved at the same rate as Echizen?

    The better people improve faster. And more importantly in drama the main characters improve faster.

    It makes perfect sense. Echizen is the only character who improved on his own level. I said "All characters improve at the same rate because all characters improve after EVERY MATCH.

    Sengoku is an exception, because he was too minor a character in PoT1.

    To make it as simple as possible, I'll explain.

    Season 1:
    Kaidoh's powerlevel is 4
    Fuji's powerlevel is 8
    Tezuka's powerlevel is 10
    Kirihara's powerlevel is 9
    Sanada's powerlevel is 11

    If every character improves at the same rate with every game played, and each character plays 1 more match, doubling in skill after every match, the end result will end up no different than the first statistics. The difference is every character will be stronger.

    Season 2:
    Kaidoh's powerlevel is 8
    Fuji's powerlevel is 16
    Tezuka's powerlevel is 20
    Kirihara's powerlevel is 18
    Sanada's powerlevel is 22
    Last edited by Fayte; June 21, 2009 at 10:53 PM.

  3. #18
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member
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    Re: Shishido

    You still have the same huge hole that I think you just can't see.

    Add in that statement and it still doesn't follow logically that just because all characters improve after every match that they should improve at an equal rate.

    It doesn't follow any logical progression, you could argue from the manga that they improve at the same rate, but all characters improving after each match does not logically progress to them improving at the same rate.


    I personally don't see that looking at the manga. Even in your own example you started with the presupposition that they improve at the same rate! Here's a counter example

    Person A -4
    Person B-6

    After 1 match each

    Person A-8
    Person B-14

    Both improved but at different rates.
    Last edited by Dansan1; June 21, 2009 at 11:03 PM.

  4. #19
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Fayte's Avatar
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    Re: Shishido

    I was making a general example about the major characters and saying if they were to improve at the same rate. Every character is different, but the concept is still the same.

    Sanada can be at level 30 in season 1
    Echizen can be level 8 in season 1

    *Echizen plays more main characters and improves*
    *Sanada plays minor characters and wins 6-0. Doesn't improve*

    Sanada remains level 30 in season 2
    Echizen becomes level 20 in season 2

    *Echizen plays more main characters and improves*
    *Sanada plays minor characters and wins 6-0. Doesn't improve*

    Sanada remains level 30 in season 3
    Echizen becomes level 28 in season 3

    *Echizen plays Sanada and wins*
    *Echizen goes to level 35*
    *Sanada goes to level 31

    (Note this hacked exp is only available for Echizen, granted by GM_Konomi)

  5. #20
    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member
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    Re: Shishido

    Quote Originally Posted by Fayte View Post
    Yeah, but remember you can't compare an improved Fuji to an old Tachibana. We have to assume every character will improve at the same rate. So the old Fuji who played the old Tachibana match would end up similar to a new fuji vs a new tachibana.
    I sort of agree with the statement that we have to assume that every character will improve at the same rate, but characters like Echizen and Fuji are known to evolve at a fast rate. Characters like Shiraishi and Tezuka won't evolve as much since as said by Shiraishi, they both have completed their styles already. Assuming that it's an RPG, we can say that they have EXP boost. However, your statement saying that "all characters improve at the same rate because they improve after every match" doesn't make sense. Improving at all is not a rate. Improving 2 levels/per game is a rate.

    There are some things in the manga that I've learned to accept. Ryoma won't lose, Ryoma sucks at doubles, Oishi has a little girl's wrist, and Fuji is the fastest evolving character. I mean, come on. Fuji invented a new counter during the hardest game he's ever played. He then proceeded to create another new counter in 1 game to fix the 5th counter's counter. With the information we've been given, it can be assumed, whether you fully agree or not, that Tachibana has not gotten ANY better from before the manga's story to the nationals. Some characters have even said that he got worse.
    Last edited by JyAZ; June 22, 2009 at 07:44 AM.

  6. #21
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    Re: Shishido

    True, I believe too that Tachibana was at Level 20, for example, before PoT1 began and at the end of it he was still Level 20, he only just used a little bit of his abilities. Also the Sanada 3 years ago lost badly against Tezuka and could have complety destroyed him at the Nationals Final if he wasnt so stubborn. So Tezuka improved from Level, say, 20 to 40 but Sanada from Level 14 to 50. So they doest improved at the same rate...

  7. #22
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Fayte's Avatar
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    Re: Shishido

    My point is, no matter how much they all improve, they will all remain in the same spot. Echizen will always be above everyone else, Sanada will always be second, Tezuka will always be third, etc.

    The reason I say this is because everyone will eventually improve. Again;

    Say Echizen is level 25
    Sanada is level 20
    Tezuka is level 18

    Lets say Echizen gains 5 levels (after 1 match)
    Tezuka gains 3 levels (after 1 match)
    and Sanada gains 2 (after 1 match)

    The standings remain in the same order, despite growing at different rates.

    Echizen is level 30
    Sanada is level 22
    Tezuka is level 21

    No matter how much someone grows (echizen excluded) they will eventually stop growing until the other characters around them catch up to their skill level. For example,

    Sanada, Tachibana, and Kirihara were too good from the beginning, so they didn't improve until everyone else caught up to their skill level. Sanada didn't improve until Tezuka/Atobe caught up to his level. Again, like an RPG

    Echizen is that kid who grinds all day and night and doesn't sleep, gaining levels.
    Tachibana was level 20 when Echizen and everyone were level 8, so Tachibana hasn't played in weeks.

    Kirihara gets to level 21 and passes Tachibana.

    Tachibana finds out; goes "Wth?" and logs on to level more.

    Atobe gets WoI and gets to level 30

    Sanada hears about it; goes "kk watch this" and gets to level 40

    It is like a grindfest to level 99, nobody letting anyone pass them.
    Last edited by Fayte; June 22, 2009 at 10:05 AM.

  8. #23
    MH Senpai 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Atobe the king's Avatar
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    Re: Shishido

    Quote Quote:
    My point is, no matter how much they all improve, they will all remain in the same spot. Echizen will always be above everyone else, Sanada will always be second, Tezuka will always be third, etc.
    That kind of makes no sense at all...
    When's Prince of Tennis Smash Hit 4

  9. #24
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member javimgol's Avatar
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    Re: Shishido

    Quote Originally Posted by Atobe the king View Post
    That kind of makes no sense at all...
    I think so. It was clearly stated that Tokyo's Tezuka was better than Tokyo' s Sanada and Tokyo's Ryoma .
    After Nationals, Ryoma was better than Tezuka and Sanada was exactly in the same level as Tezuka

  10. #25
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Fayte's Avatar
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    Re: Shishido

    Quote Originally Posted by javimgol View Post
    I think so. It was clearly stated that Tokyo's Tezuka was better than Tokyo' s Sanada and Tokyo's Ryoma .
    After Nationals, Ryoma was better than Tezuka and Sanada was exactly in the same level as Tezuka
    What are you talking about? Kantou Tezuka would have gotten destroyed by Kantou Sanada. Tezuka only had Tezuka zone and zero shiki drop shot during that time period. Kantou Sanada was like seven times as good as Tezuka.

    It wasn't until Tezuka was FULLY HEALED and entered the Nationals, when he became the real Tezuka.

    Quote Quote:
    That kind of makes no sense at all...
    Thanks.

  11. #26
    MH Senpai 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Atobe the king's Avatar
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    Re: Shishido

    Quote Quote:
    What are you talking about? Kantou Tezuka would have gotten destroyed by Kantou Sanada. Tezuka only had Tezuka zone and zero shiki drop shot during that time period. Kantou Sanada was like seven times as good as Tezuka.
    Where are you pulling these numbers from? How do you know he was that much better? he did fine against Atobe and would have won routinely 6-4, Sanada isn't the type to try and destroy his shoulder like Atobe tried to.

    It was after both Tezuka and Yukimura were out that they started calling Sanada the best middle school player in Japan.

    Quote Quote:
    Thanks.
    I said that because it really made no sense..when did Sanada become the number 2 and when did Tezuka become the number 3? one match doesn't mean he's better.

    If anything Yukimura is the number 2.
    Last edited by Atobe the king; June 22, 2009 at 03:38 PM.
    When's Prince of Tennis Smash Hit 4

  12. #27
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Fayte's Avatar
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    Re: Shishido

    Quote Originally Posted by Atobe the king View Post

    Where are you pulling these numbers from? How do you know he was that much better? he did fine against Atobe and would have won routinely 6-4, Sanada isn't the type to try and destroy his shoulder like Atobe tried to.

    It was after both Tezuka and Yukimura were out that they started calling Sanada the best middle school player in Japan.



    I said that because it really made no sense..when did Sanada become the number 2 and when did Tezuka become the number 3? one match doesn't mean he's better.

    If anything Yukimura is the number 2.
    I am saying a random number, stop taking everything so literally.

    This is the same Kantou Sanada who beat that same Kantou Atobe 6-0. Tezuka was certainly not the best in Kantou when he was unable to use PoHW, and Yukimura played not one match, and was hardly existent.

    Sanada was in fact the best person Echizen could have possibly faced during Kantou.

  13. #28
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    Re: Shishido

    I think Fayte is right on this one. Tezuka only with his Zone and Drop Shot wouldnt have won against Sanadas FuuZinZanRa, because, as shown in the Nationals Final match, Ra can destroy the Zone. So whats left is the Zero-Shiki and I doubt Tezuka could handle it to use it in every rally due to his shoulder/elbow/whatever problem.

  14. #29
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Sherlock Holmes's Avatar
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    Re: Shishido

    Actually, no one here knows what Kantou Tezuka's level is. Because he didn't play on the Kantou tournament, unless my memory is failing me. We can't know for sure how far on his recovery he was.

    But it's not like Echizen will ALWAYS be number one. He will only be number one until the big bad of this season is introduced. Then the big bad will be number one until Echizen beats him in a match, after some hax.

    Characters grow in different speeds. Their growth formula goes like this:

    Importance to the plot(1.5)+Popularity(3)+AuthorPreference(1.5)+Strongopponent(1.5)=Growth
    Echizen gets the most growth due to always getting strong opponents, having a gigantic importance to the plot, and being liked by the author. He's fairly popular as well.

    With that said, it's not like characters will always grow at the same rate. Characters of the same tier, maybe. Like say, Niou and Yagyuu. They pretty much grow at the same rate. But Yukimura and Niou grow at completely different rates.

  15. #30
    MH Senpai 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Atobe the king's Avatar
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    Re: Shishido

    Quote Originally Posted by Fayte View Post

    I am saying a random number, stop taking everything so literally.

    This is the same Kantou Sanada who beat that same Kantou Atobe 6-0. Tezuka was certainly not the best in Kantou when he was unable to use PoHW, and Yukimura played not one match, and was hardly existent.

    Sanada was in fact the best person Echizen could have possibly faced during Kantou.
    It's a random number but a huge one...anyway, guess this makes sense..but where does it say Atobe lost 6-0?

    Quote Quote:
    Importance to the plot(1.5)+Popularity(3)+AuthorPreference(1.5)+Strongopponent(1.5)=Growth
    Echizen gets the most growth due to always getting strong opponents, having a gigantic importance to the plot, and being liked by the author. He's fairly popular as well.
    This makes sense too, and made me lol, and yea the kid is popular in japan usually in the top 3, only the US fanbase hates him

    Quote Quote:
    But it's not like Echizen will ALWAYS be number one. He will only be number one until the big bad of this season is introduced. Then the big bad will be number one until Echizen beats him in a match, after some hax.
    Maybe, but the team theme of the manga doesn't make it look like that can happen

    The issue with making Echizen learn PoP is that he made it so that the kid CAN'T lose without making a good chunk of PoT worthless
    Last edited by Atobe the king; June 22, 2009 at 03:39 PM.
    When's Prince of Tennis Smash Hit 4

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