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Well, out of Drakend's two points, I'd have to say that the second point is the more likely one, at least IMO. We havn't seen enough of Barragan (okay, unreleased, he can slow down time and deteriorate things by touching, and released, he has death breath, but he hasn't even shown us a friggin cero) nor Halibel (bunch of physical attacks unreleased, one super powerful physical attack after releasing, then a bunch of back and forth action with water attacks). I really want to see more of her. Remember when Hitsu said that they were both waiting for the atmosphere to fill with moisture so they could use their ultimate attacks? Well, Hitsu brought the water she needed in the form of the hugeass ice pillar christmas tree (Yes, i think it looks like a christmas tree lol), if she can manage to break out, she can use her ultimate attack hopefully.
Anyhow, I have to disagree with you Kkck, when you say that his primera etapa wasn't very impressive. You have to realize that he stayed in primera etapa for less than one chapter of the fight IIRC. He was already completely destroying Ichigo with primera etapa (his cero oscuras vaporized Ichigo's mask and all, and then he was slamming Ichigo against walls easily with his bare hands and his super fast speed), he only went to segunda etapa to show Ichigo "true despair", and yes, segunda etapa was very impressive as well, an instantaneous cero oscuras, as well as lanza de relampago (which is pretty much as powerful as cero oscuras, except it can be thrown, or used as a sword/spear). Basically, I think he could have shown us more of what he could do in his primera etapa (since all he did was hit Ichigo with a cero oscuras, as well as faster attacks). However, I do agree that from what we have been shown of primera etapa (powerful cero, faster speed), it wouldn't be able to match up to either Halibel nor Barragan.
since even Aizen apparently hasn't seen it.. only time will tell how much significance it has.lol.
IMO, if Hitsu vs Ulquiorra i'm sure Hitsu will died easily because ulquiorra power is unique plus his fast too. Why Hitsu can defeat Harribel (for now), it because Harribel power is water and that is advantage to Hitsu. If not, Hitsu will die tragically by Harribel long ago.
Here is what we know,
1) Hollows are more powerful in HM
Here is what we dont know,
2) How much more powerful are hollows in HM
We haven't seen many fights with Ulq in the real world, and we haven't seen any fights with Halibel in HM.
So here is what I think.
A) There is no way in hell, Hitsu would beat Ulq in HM, its just not happening. I dont see ANY captain (Yama aside) so far (from what we've seen) beating Ulq in HM. Not saying that shunsei or the others can't, but from what we've actually seen, no way.
B) I still do not believe hitsu has beaten halibel. Although she is frozen solid, I doubt she will die without sacrificing a limb to bring out Allon #2
And finally, C) If hitsugaya were to fight Ulq, on earth, limiter released, above an ocean, i think he (drum roll) would have a 25% chance of winning.
Ulq maybe all business, but so is hitsu. He used his ice mirror to gauge Halibel's released speed, and reaized that he had to keep his distance. He would try do the same with Ulq.
Also, all arrancar seem susceptable to freezing so far. And even if it just last a few seconds, it's worth it, to gain distance.
All arrancar are arrogant to a fault. Even a no nonsense type like Ulq would let Hitsugaya pull off an ultimate move if he told him to wait (think vegeta vs Cell, final flash).
And in the right area, ther shear power of hitsu's bankai can be limitless.
So to recap,
1). Chance of beating Ulq in HM = 0.0%
2). Chance of beating Ulq in RW = 5.0%
2). Chance of beating Ulq in RW above an ocean = 25%
3). Chance of beating Ulq Segunda Etapa (anywhere) = -25.0% (as in he has a better chance of ulq beating himself)
but thing is in HM the boost comes from denser atmosphere.
i.e you breath in more reiatsu sort to speak. and I doubt it would make
a world of difference. if you live in high altitude then you would find it a little
difficult to breath while doing heavy exercise etc. but then when you come to
sea level you will notice a difference but you are not going to become a superman all of a sudden. what I'm saying is that I doubt the HM boost is that crucial.
that said FKT is actually part of the SS dimension so it has high density than
and yeah regarding harri I don't think she's gone either.
proof, then I don't know what is.
And I'm with the rest of you in that I want Harribel and Barragan back...but I don't want to be disappointed by Bleach [again]. For now I think it's better to assume that they're dead.
Ulquiorra's speed is relative to Ichigo's-Ichigo was really fast when he went bankai the first time but we havent seen him pull the "I'm so fast ther's 50 of me" trick since so his speed probably isnt the same now-this is my conjecture. This is all based off the belief Ichigo's shinigami powers are worth a damn. Yes he survived the SS arc-but how?
Ikkaku went easy on him-if he had used his bankai Ichigo was dead.
Kenpachi went easy on him-he was playing with him like a cat with a ball of thread for most of that fight-if hed taken his eyepatch off and used kendo from the beggining Ichigo would be dead.
Byakuya also went easy on him-If he was serious and used Senkei to its full potential instead of just using on if its swords at a time ichigo would be dead. Furthermore, even after Ichigo broke Senbonsakura, Byakuya has the strenght left to shunpo about while Ichigo could not stay on his feet-if byakuya wanted to kill him for real he could have finished it with Kidou and Ichigo would be dead. The point is Ichigo is much weaker than people think he is for those reasons-his powers peaked through hero factor at the end and even so he only survived because he was being let off-make no mistake-his shingami powers are basic captain level. If any captain went all out on him and he used only shinigami powers he's dead. With his mask he's just about decent-not some unbeatable super captain as some people seem to think. Ichigo's been making the espada look good but that doesnt mean the Gotei 13 would struggle like he has-and surprise surprise-they havent struggled one bit.
I'm not saying Hitsugaya would defo beat Ulquiorra-what I'm saying is that win draw or lose the fight would be much closer than 80% people here would like to admit and that more than that using Ichigo to gauge anyone's power is an exercise in futility. And thats even before you take into account that his power levels fluctate madly( as stated by ulquiorra)
Hitsugaya's shikai attack couldn't harm Yammy.
I'm not sure how Hitsu grew so much that he can fight Halibel, in such a short time. I like to think it's a result of his genius, the convienent match-up, Hitsu making it a long-range battle and Halibel not taking him too seriously.
Hitsu may be a genius with a lot of potential, but even Ichigo couldn't increase his reiatsu so much that he could fight evenly with a released Halibel and he's a vizard with an extremely large growth rate and the most potential.
I think at most Hitsu should be at 5th or 6th Espada's level and that Halibel and Ulquiorra outclass him. Ulquiorra in his 2nd release would probably beat Hitsu as badly as he beat Ichigo.
- Ichigo was able to beat Renji in one blow when he was serious
- Ichigo reiastu was on the same level as Kenpachi and he could fight on the same level. Kenpachi was stronger, but it still amazing he could Kenpachi at all
- Ichigo could have killed Byakuya when he first used Bankai against him, by slicing his throat. Byakuya may have been stronger than Ichigo, but Ichigo was on the same level.
Last edited by En Yang Ji; June 22, 2009 at 08:37 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
When hitsugaya fought yami he most likely did not use the power he used against gin or harribel. Exactly how that would affect yami or ulquiorra for that matter is highly debatable.
Why should I believe that when we have no evidence to that?
Do we know for a fact that Grimmjow and Ulquiorra are slower than Byakuya? No.
Also, in his battles against Grimmjow and Ulquiorra, he didn't needo to make super fast after-images surrounding the opponent, there's no point, it was all to evade Byakuya's initial form bankai int he first place, neither Grimmjow nor Ulquiorra have abilities close to Senbonzakura's.
Lastly, and most importantly. From what I've read here and in the discussion threads. You refute the evidence of Ichigo being strong based on the fact that you believe that in the more recent fights (Grimmjow, Ulquiorra), Ichigo has become weaker than he was in the SS arc. A semi-reasonable assumption, I mean, many others latch on to the same assumption as well.
HOWEVER, if you must assume based on solely feats alone that Ichigo in HM<Ichigo in SS, then you must also concede that Ulquiorra>Barragan and Halibel, because based off of feats only, which was your measuring stick for saying that Ichigo is weaker than he was in SS, Ulquiorra has been shown to be much more impressive than Barragan and Halibel.
All I'm saying here is that you used feats in SS vs. feats in HM to back up your argument that Ichigo has become weaker since the SS arc (y'know, since you say he can't do the 50 after image thing anymore). By using that same method of backing up an opinion, I can equally say that Ulquiorra>Barragan+Halibel, as he's shown much better feats.
Bottom line: You base Ichigo getting weaker on feats, you must also base that Ulquiorra>Halibel and Barragan in feats.
True, if Ikkaku used bankai then Ichigo would have lost. But why are you even using suuch outlandish possibilities? Ikkaku wouldn't use bankai to beat Pou even if it meant failing his mission and dying. Ikkaku would neveer use his bankai in SS, s o there's no point in making "ifs" about it.Quote:
Also true, Zaraki would have made mincemeat of Ichigo if he started without the eyepatch (he wouldn't even need kendo for it, hell, he didn't even need to take off the eyepatch to pierce through Zangetsu). Same argument as before, it's not like him to do that. The whole reason for Kenpachi to have an eyepatch, is so he can enjoy his fight more before defeating the opponent. So in a hypothetical world where Zangetsu just liked to end fights ASAP, and therefore didn't use an eyepatch, sure, this argument would be valid. However, since we are in the real world that Kubo has given us, your argument (as well as yours for Ikkaku) is about as good as saying that Luppi would have killed Hitsugaya if he wasn't a dumbass.
I don't think you understand what the purpose of Senkei is. The purpose of Senkei is not to make swords out of the millions of mini-blades and just send them after the opponent. WHat's the point of that? Doesn't that sound eerily similar to Byakuya's first form bankai? Sending 1000 swords vs. millions of mini-blades, all the same. The real purpose of Senkei is not to have 1000 swords rain down on the opponent, as that's useless, Byakuya's initial bankai form did the same, but better (smaller blades that are faster and more versatile, not to mention there's 1000 mini-blades per every sword that Byakuya makes in senkei). The purpose of Senkei is to focus more of Byakuya's bankai on offense, as he stated that it was a compromise involving less defense, and more offense. It make sense, as normally these mini-blades that Byakuya uses are not that powerful, even in bankai. Ichigo was cornered by Byakuya's omni-directional attack in his initial form of bankai, yet he still broke out easily. Senkei, is compressing those mini-blades into a sword that Byakuya can use for himself. The power from Senkei does not come from just making the swords from mini-blades, but the fact that Byakuya wields the actual swords, something he did not do with his initial form of bankai and his mini-blades (he just controlled them). Combining the power of his mini-blades, which now compose the sword, with his own swordmanship skills. The purpose of those surrounding blades. To trap the opponent in, as well as call another blade down as Byakuya did, he took down another blade, and put it through Ichigo's foot to immobilize him.
Lastly, Byakuya's final form is definitive proof of what Senkei is supposed to do. If he really only had enough energy for one more attack, then why wouldn't he just have all the swords in senkei attack Ichigo? Oh yeah, since it's not his strongest attack. Final form is quite simply abandoning all the versatility and defense of his bankai for pure offensive power. Compressing all of his mini-blades into one sword, which of course, Byakuya himself wields.
Which brings me to another point, Ichigo in bankai, after getting cut up by Byakuya in Senkei, and without shirosaki, still was able to best Byakuya (who was similarly cut up, although by shirosaki), in his strongest form. Yes, I know, you can all call plot kai since it was semi-apparent that Byakuya wasn't dead set on killing Ichigo after Shirosaki made his appearence (he changed his replies from "I will kill you Kurosaki Ichigo for trampling on our pride" to "I will answer your question for why I would execute Rukia by hand if you defeat me"). Still however, a win is a win.
I'm not of course debating that Byakuya was stronger than bankai ichigo, as he was basically going to win until shirosaki stepped in. I am just saying, that 1. Byakuya's senkei is what it is, and it already made Byakuya more powerful than Bankai Ichigo. Having 1000 swords come after Ichigo is the same as having 1 milliion mini blades come after Ichigo. It only matters that Byakuya was wielding the sword to make him more powerful. and 2. In terms of pure power with the zanpakutou (not kido, or battle experience, or even as an overall fighter), Ichigo pretty much matches up against Byakuya in just pure power, as shown by their last attacks.
Lastly, hero or not, we can all agree that the feats of Ichigo have become less impressive after the SS arc. His feats in SS, namely beating two captains, gimped fights or not, it still happened. His feats post-SS arc, he needed a mask just to beat the sexta espada, and needed a mask just to beat unreleased cuarta espada.
And Gotei 13 has effortlessly beaten espadas up to the number 5 (well, actually, Zaraki came pretty close to dying, but his kendo then proceeded to blow Noitora away). However, this is about Hitsu and Ulquiorra, and since Ichigo is our only measuring stick for Ulquiorra, and Halibel is the best measuring stick for Hitsu, we have to compare the feats of Ulquiorra vs. a bankai masked Ichigo, and the feats of Hitsugaya vs. Halibel. If Halibel is actually dead, that means one of two things. 1. Ichigo is weaksauce even with his mask, 2. Ulquiorra in his segunda etapa>halibel.
My opinion is that Ulquiorra>Halibel unless Halibel breaks out of the obelisk and shows us something impressive. But that's pretty much a purely subjective statement, since all the evidence we have is feats.
Tite kubo! what I'm saying is that look at segunda etapa from his point of view. he didn't just make a second release just to make Ulq look cool.
he gave Ishida a whole bunch of comments on the second release.
TIte is telling us that it has significance. he's emphasizing Ulq's release
as being very unique.. this definitely has a role in the future.